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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it

434 replies

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 17:52

Hi all. Ive come to a realisation lately that has almost brought me close to tears because I have to accept that Im probably going to be single for the rest of my life. Grab a cuppa because this is probably going to be long.

For context, I am a single 33 year old female with my own business, own house, no kids, independent, no baggage, relatively attractive (without blowing my own trumpet) and look young enough than my actual age, have a masters degree, love travelling, open minded, funny (I like to think so), clever, lots of friends, love socialising (out most weekends), and I have some depth to me and actually give a shit about things in life that a lot of people disregard, like animal welfare, homelessness etc. In a nutshell, I’m decent.

Here is the boat I find myself in…
I’ve had 3 proper relationships in my life, all no longer than 12 months, 2 of them verbally abusive and cheaters. Ive got a thick skin now and try not to take any shit and I’m aware of potential red flags that may pop up. Ive been on my own for over 5 years now, with little flings here and there. I’ve tried online dating, but the thing is, I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me but open minded to many other things), decent job, decent human being. I don’t care if theyre divorced or already have kids, I’m just fundamentally looking for the bare minimum – to fancy them, initially. I’ve had sexless relationships in the past and its not fun for either party – fancying someone is a must.

Whenever I fancy men in real life, I imagine if they were on a dating site and I ask myself if I’d have swiped for them based just on their pictures and the answer is no, I probably wouldn’t, unless of course they are the ‘conventionally good looking’ type that have had the balls to come over to me on a night out (rarely happens these days, and if it does, they turn out to be a narcissist – hence the macho confidence and charisma). So I know dating sites aren’t working for me, as Im much more likely to fancy someone when I can see the ‘fuller picture’ ie their voice, humour, intelligence, wittiness, their mannerisms etc etc. My theory is that most of the men that are conventionally ‘good looking’ and get the most swipes, are probably lacking in all the areas Ive listed above that are attractive traits, and are more than likely players as they have the pick of the bunch (we are ALL swiping for the good looking ones – and they fucking know it!).
You might ask why I haven’t settled down with the men ive met organically then above, the ‘normal’ ones that have traits I like. Here is where my problem really is – they have clocked on that they are a fucking rarity.

Have you been on a night out recently and looked around? There are about 15 attractive women to every ‘good looking’ man. I believe this is because women naturally take more pride in their appearance than men do, and now that we earn our own money, we splash it on treatments and tweakments. It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023.
Equally, what are men having done? Well, theres the ones who give a shit about their appearance so they might go to the gym 4 times a week (no im not talking about sted heads - yuck), they may splash out in designer gear head to toe (cringe), or the ones with a little bit of class may shop at Reiss instead (better), but you get my jist. They might visit the barber once a week too for a fresh trim. And the rest of them? Nada. No gym, possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about), maybe they haven’t gone shopping for years. But what do both of these types of men both have in common? They both think they are entitled to stunning women.

As ive explained, the ratio of attractive women to attractive men is off the scale. If you haven’t noticed it before, you will now, especially 40 year olds and under. 50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t. You were either an alpha male at 6 ft 2, or you weren’t, and that was ok. You would simply marry up (literally) with someone who was in the same league as you. Now, women are having to lower their bar and accept less than what they deserve, simply because theres so much competition and not enough men to go around. Ask yourself, how many kind, gorgeous, successful, funny, clever, good yet single women do you know? I can bet it’s a lot.

Again, looking back at relationships 50 years ago and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married, and kind of understood the unwritten rule that they needed to ‘keep their man happy’. On the other hand, men kept us happy too. We didn’t need to work and split the finances, we had the luxury of staying at home, cooking, cleaning and raising the kids as regardless of what anyone says, women are more nurturing, emotional, and quite frankly - do a better job of bringing up the children. This worked out fine for men - they went to work, provided for their family (which triggered their hero instinct), and got their dick sucked in return. Masculine and feminine energy intertwined perfectly, sorry feminists, but its true. And the women were happy, until they weren’t.

We then kicked off that we wanted equal rights to men, equal pay, equal jobs, the list goes on, and we got it. We are now a bunch of independent, self sufficient, home owning, driving, single mothers. We’re basically masculine. The men haven’t changed their role though, they aren’t now staying at home, cooking, cleaning and bringing up the kids, they haven’t sacrificed anything but yet they are still reaping the awards. The award – sex.

We somehow have manipulated ourselves into believing that woman need sex like men do (we don’t), and we can sleep around, use men, get our kit off and call it ‘empowering’. It was only empowering when we got the respect we deserved 50 years ago and the mortgage paid. Now, we don’t get called the next day and get pied off for a woman 10 years younger. Men don’t want commitment, period. We nag them, we remind them of their mothers, they have more fun with their friends and we’re a headache to them. The only benefit they have from having a woman in their lives is sex. Period. And we have continued to spoil them with it, with minimal effort from them. We’re lucky if they buy us a plate of food before we do the honour. But we naturally want more, we are wired differently to men, and this is why they USED to meet us in the middle.

But here’s the thing, when we demand more (commitment), the men back off - have you noticed? We get ghosted when we want something in return. Do not let other women fool you into thinking both sexes are getting a good deal by having intercourse, we aren’t. Men inherently need sex, they think about sex thousands of times per day, they even pay for it, and women enjoy it…sometimes, but we don’t inherently need it.
So why on earth are we still having sex freely with men who haven’t earned it, sometimes even with strangers, and blaming being ghosted on countless other reasons? Hes not ready for commitment, hes been hurt before, hes too busy with work, hes avoidantly attached…he’s not. He just doesn’t want to buy the cow when the milk is free.

I personally have took a stance and have stopped having sex with men that haven’t put the bare minimum amount of effort in, to be frank. By bare minimum, I mean he returns my texts, picks me up, takes me out for a few dinners and is nice to me. I’m not asking for a lot. Ive read ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ and ‘The Rules’ – but these books only work with 2 willing participants. It still doesn’t develop into the fairytale romance I had once envisioned on the first date with him, he either doesn’t feel a connection or he’s backed away at the thought of committing.

Some of you will say “not all men are like that”. This is true. Here is my other theory – the ‘other’ men who may be short, insecure, abusive, jobless, homeless, ugly or stupid may be more than willing to settle down with me – you can bet their bottom dollar they are – but I would like someone who brings something to the table, like I do. I won’t fancy a man who is wet behind the ears, who is scared of a hard days work and would be happy to sit at home raising our kids – it’s not masculine and I don’t want it. The ‘other’ men who are none of the things I’ve listed above and are genuinely fantastic men with a lot to offer, raised right and want to commit to a good woman – guess what? THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN. They were taken in their twenties, and they stayed with that woman, because they are kind, loving, loyal men.

The dating pool for 30, 40, 50 something women now is DIER and we are left with the commitment phobes, abusers, narcissists or tons of baggage that we don’t want. The feminist movement along with plastic surgery and ‘empowering’ women has damaged us. We now all offer the same thing to men and they are spoiled for choice. I was chatting with a male friend of mine not long ago who had been seeing a woman who ticked a lot of boxes but she wanted exclusivity before she agreed to have sex. He didn’t want to be exclusive or commit in any way to any woman, so he let her go. I asked him if he was confident if he would find a good woman like her again in the future, he said yes, and I believe him. We are all competing with each other to be the thinnest, prettiest, most enhanced, smartest, richest to bag the best man, and he’s sitting back and laughing at us all climb over each other in desperation. He’s chilled as a cucumber.

My biological clock is ticking, his isn’t. The men aren’t worried, we are. The men aren’t on mumsnet starting threads about women who won’t have sex with them, because we do. But trust me, if we took this big asset away, they would. Have you noticed how many eligible bachelors you know who just decide when theyre about 45-50 that they are ‘finally ready to settle down’? And they find someone pretty much right away, usually 15 years younger, a box ticker, no kids, no baggage and very fucking fertile. He becomes a dad and gets married and everyone goes “ah at last! He finally found -the One!”. No – she isn’t the one who changed him, she was the one who was there when he realised his looks were fading and he better take what he can while he can. Meanwhile, the women he messed around with back in the day are well into their fifties, still single, possibly childless and debating whether to date someone 20 years older who may cherish them the way no man their age ever did. Do I want to date someone 20 years older than me to feel special? No thanks.

I believe if we all took a stance and stopped giving men the one thing they NEED (sex), until they give us what we NEED (love and commitment), things will change. Stop sexting and sending nudes – they used to pay Babestation for that, now we’re doing it for free! Stop allowing them to waltz in and out of your life every other weekend when he feels like it. Stop popping kids out to undeserving men who wont even put a ring on your finger. A child is the greatest gift a woman can give to a man, its priceless and its basically fucking magical. Yet, people are allowing their wombs to be invaded by men who couldn’t give 2 shits about them when it comes down to it. We then raise fatherless children who grow up with daddy issues and the cycle repeats again. We need to raise the bar and say NO collectively, or else it won’t work. The bimbo on Saturday night who goes home with him after one drink (bare minimum) will undo all our hard work.
If the feminist movement hadn’t have happened, I don’t believe relationships would be as dire as they are right now. Its great that we earn the same as men and have our independence, but look at the price we have paid. They haven’t paid any price, nothing has changed for them, infact it only got EASIER. They still get sex and kids, but no bills or commitment – bingo! We have normalised this behaviour and it’s time to put an end to it.

I can turn down a man for sex tomorrow, but he’s not bothered because he always knows this… theres another desperate girl hoping that if she fucks like a pornstar Friday night she will bag him. She won’t. And he will move on to the next. Women look for love, men only fall in love by accident – by spending quality time with a woman. But they can’t fall in love if we give it up too easy when his foot is already out the door.

As you can tell I've given this a lot of thought and I'm disappointed with where I find myself at my age, and where I think the world is heading. Does anyone else feel the same way?

OP posts:
Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 20:13

I assumed I was 6ft tall - At medical checkup found out I'm only 5 '11.5

You could be shrinking. My partner says he is.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 08/01/2024 20:15

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 20:13

I assumed I was 6ft tall - At medical checkup found out I'm only 5 '11.5

You could be shrinking. My partner says he is.

People do. My parents were both taller than me (in my late 20s) and they're not anymore. I definitely haven't had a growth spurt in the last 10 years, unless the doctors are lying to me when they measure me....whole other conspiracy though....

Puppalicious · 08/01/2024 20:15

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m assuming that someone else has picked up that this quite clearly has been written by a man?

Münchner · 08/01/2024 20:15

What a load of shit

Validus · 08/01/2024 20:16

Ladolcevita233 · 08/01/2024 20:13

I assumed I was 6ft tall - At medical checkup found out I'm only 5 '11.5

You could be shrinking. My partner says he is.

My dad has shrunk. Not as much as the older women in the family, but it’s definitely happening.

Scousefab · 08/01/2024 20:18

My brother is single! His criteria is no gold diggers that’s it lol he wants kids and marriage age 40 sorry to disagree with you! I did actually feel like this before I met my partner and realised if they like you they will call you back! I was ghosted numerous times before. I never slept with men on the first night either weeds the rubbish ghosting types out. Always someone out there stop looking someone told me and I did and just did things to make me happy then bam bumped into someone.

Not19foreverpullyourselftogether · 08/01/2024 20:18

This.

You sound pretty DIER (sic) yourself.

soupofpasta · 08/01/2024 20:21

It's definitely online dating.

Even in the early 2000s, people mostly had to meet organically. So when a man met a woman he was attracted to and he liked her personality, that he clicked with, then he better give it a good shot in a relationship, because there was a good chance if he let her pass him by, it might be a while until he found that again.

Online dating has totally skewed this. They are like indecisive kids in a candy shop!!

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 08/01/2024 20:23

Who gives a fuck what men were like in 2023, it’s 2024 now baby and men are so BACK it’s unreal.

StoppitRightNow · 08/01/2024 20:26

That was a very long, very dull way of saying you’re the problem. Yawn.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 08/01/2024 20:27

Puppalicious · 08/01/2024 20:15

I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m assuming that someone else has picked up that this quite clearly has been written by a man?

Some of it does sound that way, but would a man really be suggesting women stop having sex until men declare love and commitment?

That's what makes me wonder if it is a woman.

HarrietStyles · 08/01/2024 20:30

It’s me hi I’m the problem it’s me.

coldcallerbaiter · 08/01/2024 20:32

NADJA24 · 08/01/2024 19:46

Incels normally tell us to stop wanting 6ft+ and to give shorter guys a chance (at sex).
This op is advocating celibacy and no premarital sex. I can believe it's a woman behind this.

Edited

Agree. It is not quite right for the male loser language you often see. Maybe a different branch of it? Ones that would like trad wives.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion inc OP. How old is OP?

Thriv3 · 08/01/2024 20:32

Women have always worked OP. Back in the day, working class women went to work, then came home and did all the ‘housewife’ jobs.

5128gap · 08/01/2024 20:35

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 08/01/2024 20:27

Some of it does sound that way, but would a man really be suggesting women stop having sex until men declare love and commitment?

That's what makes me wonder if it is a woman.

He's only suggesting women stop having sex with the 6' 2" alphas. He wants them to save themselves for guys like him who he thinks aren't getting a look in because ALL the women swipe on the alphas.

bendypines · 08/01/2024 20:37

Sometimes, if your relationships keep failing for much the same reason over and over again, it might be worth looking for the common denominator.

Lili132 · 08/01/2024 20:39

You are really over thinking.
Stay at home mum and working dad are fairly new concepts. For the most part of human history majority of women worked - gathering, then working in family business or in the fields. The work at home was also back breaking. Most women didn't have the luxury of being a modern housewife who focused on being feminine and making her husband happy. The past was not as rosy as you think, with many women stuck in violent situations and having little options.

Also being feminine has very little to do with staying home. It's about the vibe. You can be a feminine business woman driving a car or a very masculine hosue wife. A lot of it is just social concepts and they change constantly over centuries. There was time when any form of physical exercise or having an opinion was considered not feminine.

Portraying marriage as some kind of transaction where women give sex for protection is extremely primitive and we luckily moved away from that. Today people try to form healthy partnerships based on common goals, love, commitment and physical intimacy is important part of that for most people, regardless of gender.

I think good relationships come down to picking a right partner (ability to spot red flags and understanding what qualities are important), having emotional intelligence and prioritising each other, of course some luck helps too.

Also please stop portraying children of single mothers as having "daddy issues". Being a single parent is usually harder but there is many factors that contribute to child's upbringing and making that kind of generalisation is unhelpful and simply not true.

Maybe one of the reasons why you can't find anyone is because you are over thinking many outdated beliefs rather then focusing on building a real connection. Not that there is anything wrong with being single.

kkloo · 08/01/2024 20:39

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 08/01/2024 20:27

Some of it does sound that way, but would a man really be suggesting women stop having sex until men declare love and commitment?

That's what makes me wonder if it is a woman.

"Nice guys" would, because they normally do declare love and commitment to their female friends who thought they were just a friend, and then get angry that the women aren't interested and that they have sex with other men who clearly don't care about the woman the way the nice guy does 🙄

waterSpider · 08/01/2024 20:40

AI says it's hard to be sure about the gender of the OP ...

#1 Genre: Informal
Female = 3469
Male = 4329
Difference = 860; 55.51%
Verdict: Weak MALE

Weak emphasis could indicate European.

Dorisbonson · 08/01/2024 20:42

Read some of it and gave up.

Fascinated how the arbitrary height of 6ft in a man is so important that you would rather be alone the rest of your life than be with someone who is 5ft11.

Bonkers.

75% of perfect is better than zero. 75% of a perfect partner is still a good partner and better than non at all, 75% of a car is a car and better than no car at all, 75% of the perfect holiday is still a holiday and better than no holiday at all.

Perhaps just try to be open-minded about what makes you happy.

ItsBeenRaining · 08/01/2024 20:43

I had nothing but alpha's when young, they scared off all the decent ones.

Alphas will fight for women and they do.

ZsaZsaTheCat · 08/01/2024 20:45

This was written by a man who cannot spell DIRE! What a load of crap!

frozendaisy · 08/01/2024 20:45

If you think men don't try nowadays try being trapped in a marriage with no financial means of escape!

Let me run your point of view past H, who sleeps on the couch when I am away because the bed is "too lonely", that he should be out shagging fake boobie young hotties and not coming to his home full of the people he has ever loved most in the world.

............

"Why would I do that and fuck up my whole life?"

He's not 6ft+ though so clearly doesn't pass this nonsensical test.

Puppalicious · 08/01/2024 20:46

@5128gap bang on. If only wanton women would realise that they should stop having sex with the 6 foot 2 chads, they might realise they should really be looking for love and commitment from the OP (and then he can get sex).

KnitFastDieWarm · 08/01/2024 20:50

If this OP was written by a woman then I‘m the Pope 😁

no woman refers to herself as ‘a 33 year old female’ and thinks boob jobs are a normal part of modern womanhood ffs.

back in your box, little incel.

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