How am I going to get through this :( (long post sorry!)

[MyHeadIsSpinning]

I've been with DH for over 10yrs, married for 1 and have a new baby. LO was born prem and we have been going through hell but she is home now and doing well.

DH has always been indecisive and before each major milestone, getting engaged, a house, married etc he has had a panic and discussed splitting up as he doesn't think he loves me enough to get engaged, buy a house, get married etc.

However once we have talked things through and he has had his stress he always decides that he does love me and wants to be with me.

Surprisingly getting pregnant was one thing that he didn't stress about and was really happy that we were expecting. When I delilved LO early and it was touch and go for me and LO - apparently cos I was out of it but have been told by various people - DH was a bit of a mess which was understandable, ie couldn't speak for crying. However he won't talk about this and although has been supportive during the weeks LO was in hospital on SCBU I feel he could have been there for me more than he was.

Over the weekend things have come to a head. We've been having a few niggly arguements and he has said over the past few weeks that he isn't sure if he loves me enough (again) and has been thinking about us splitting up. Yesterday I made a real effort - did my hair and make up etc and tried hard to make an effort - we had agreed to do this the night before. However DH didn't notice the effort I had made and was sullen all day only speaking when I spoke to him etc. When I cracked and said that his behaviour was upsetting me and I was upset that he hadn't commented that I looked nice - he said that he hadn't noticed that I'd made an effort and didn't think I looked as though I had particularyly

We had a 'discussion' during which he told me that;

He feels it would have been easier if I had died when havign LO as this would have ade things easier for him ie wouldn't have to decided to stay with me or not - this really hurt and he knows how bad it sounded.

He doesn't feel that he loves me enough and wishes that he's 'had the balls to leave me before marrying an having a baby'

When I asked why he married me he said he thought it would be a solution to how he was feeling about being not sure about the relationship and everyone else seemed to think it was a good idea. He was NOT pressurised into marrying me or indeed even staying with me.

The arguement went on until I said that I wasn't prepared to share our baby and him be a weekend dad. That isn't why I brought her into the workd to be passed about between two homes etc. I told him that it's all or nothing he either has us both or looses us both cos I'm not beign a part time mum and our daughter needs a full time dad.

He went to walk out of the room and I asked him how he felt right then - he replied like he wants to die

I left him to cool off and then went upstairs to see him. He was sat on the bed crying. He Said that he loves our daughter and doesn't want to be a part time dad but isn't sure that he loves me enough etc. He broke down and cried so hard he was howling and holding on to me - this is not like him he cries but only a little. This was a major breakdown kind of cry.

We have decided to see how things go for a couple of months and both make a real effort to make our marriage work He has said that he would rather fall back in love with me and make it work but at the moment isn't sure that this is possible.

I just feel so empty and don't know what to think. Part of me feels so sorry for him cos I love him and he is hurting and I want to make things better but can't) I have suggested that maybe he is depressed after the birth and the general situation and he said that he doesn't think so cos he just feels the same way as he has previously.

On the other hand I'm so angry with him for what he has said and that he is taking away this precious time with my new baby cos I can't enjoy her as much as I would cos I'm worried about the future and being on my own if he does leave us.

He finds talking difficult so I'm off to buy a couple of notepads for us both to write our feeligns in about the relationship and anything else over the coming months - I feel for me it will be cathartic and help when I really want to talk and he doesn't, for him I hope that writing down his feeligns and fears will help put them into perspective and help him to work through how he feels whatever the outcome may be.

I just feel sooo sad and can't stop thinking about what he has said and also part of me thinks that maybe we shoudl just call it a day and I can move on and find someone who does love me although not sure this would work as the person I want to love me doesn't Also I really don't want to be a single parent.

I think you are doing well too, MHIS. What HappyWoman says makes a lot of sense. Having said that, your husband sounds a difficult character, hers was perhaps more reasonable, more self-aware. Every situation is different.

I think he may have turned up late in order to provoke you into getting upset because, if you got upset, it might lead to you talking about your relationship - something you have told him you are not yet ready to do. He was trying to break down any boundaries you set. It's been said before - he is used to being able to play with your emotions - to make you unhappy and then to comfort you - all a bit of an ego trip for him. Whether he thinks about this in a calculated way or not - I suspect not, it's just instinctive behaviour for him - it is like he is trying to continue your relationship in the same way as before. You didn't fall for it, in a way, as you didn't let him in to get his stuff which may have lead to an argument or a discussion. So I think you handled it quite well, despite what you may think/feel.

Taking his stuff to his parent's house is a good idea. It shows you are reasonable, not trying to manipulate him but also not prepared to be manipulated yourself.

Not sure what clothes he wants should I ask him or just take the lot round? What do you think?

Don't want to inflame(sp?) the situation by doing the wrong thing....he hasn't contacted me at all

Could you perhaps contact him and say that you were upset late night because he brought dd home late and this upset her routine. Then say, let's forget about that but could you try to be on time next time, for dd's sake. (Making no big deal out of it, so that he doesn't get the satisfaction of having wound you up, plus cannot accuse you of being neurotic.)

Then ask him what clothes he wants. Explain that you could take them to his parents or he could arrange a time to collect them. (You being very reasonable.) I suspect he wants to come to the house to get them himself, either because he probably is not sure exactly which clothes/things he wants and/or because he might also have the ulterior motive of wanting to get into the house either to assert his control and/or to initiate a discussion with you. If you can handle him coming to the house and will be able to keep your cool, it would be reasonable to let him come to the house to pick up his things.

Like you, he is probably feeling very unsure of everything at the moment (even a little frightened, paranoid) and, although he doesn't deserve it, Happywoman and others are right that, if you want to keep a dialogue open (which you do), and keep the possibility of a reconciliation alive, then you have to ultra-reasonable (but not to the point of letting him dictate to or mess you around.)

I just read Dittany's post. I usually agree with Dittany and I do here but I seem to be advising you otherwise, contradicting myself. The thing is, I do wish this whole thing could be over for you, that 2 years would be over in an instant and that he would be out of your life. It is what he deserves and you would be better off without him (in my opinion). But, at this point, you still love him, you are very vulnerable, and every little exchange between you is having a big effect on your mood.

I want you to be cold with him so that he will know it's over but I hate the effect it has on your mood, your self-doubt. If you are ultra-reasonable, he is getting more than he deserves and it may prolong the agony for you of the end of this relationship, leave you open to further hurt. If he goes off with the other woman, you may end up looking back on your ultra-reasonable behaviour and regretting it, regret that he took you for a fool.

But, if you don't act in an ultra-reasonable way, and you and he never reconcile, you may look back and wish that you had been more conciliatory. Aaarrghhh! It's so hard, such a fine line you have to read, isn't it? We can offer advice but you have to follow your own heart and head and use your own intuition.

For what it's worth, I think ultra-reasonable, about practical matters, but emotionally cool and neutral is the way to go. If he turns up late again for a pre-arranged contact with dd, either take dd to a friend's so that the house is empty or warn him that next time you won't answer the door and the visit is forfeit. Your dd is still so little that it won't really affect her at this age.

good post raggerty
Yes it is a thin line - if the goal is to get her h back and for him to change then there needs to be contact if however it is to end the realaionship then i agree the quicker the better (not to keep opening up wounds).

MHIS - do take the time to really work out what you want - it is no good playing a game you do not want to win - and it is ok to not actually know what you want at the monent - the danger of course is he too will be (hopefully) working out what he wants too and coming up with a plan of how he is going to get what he wants, the timing is important.

Please dont worry if you think you will look a fool - I would rather have been a fool anyday then think there was something i could have done to 'save' the marriage.

You are doing so well though and should be proud of everything you are doing and he too will be aware of that - as i said he is probably surprised by your different reaction.

I did not know much of how your relationship worked before but what i have read it sounds as if he was controlling you by making you upset and taking the blame and then being the hero to make you feel better and thanking him for it.

Getting some male perspective is a good idea too - doesnt have to be a councellor but make sure you are happy with your counsellor always.

Good luck

I have emailed him and said I feel contact with DD is important but this has to be appropriate and he must bring her back by the agreed time or before if she is hungry. We must both act in DD best interests at all times.

I have said I will discuss and agree this contact with him.

I have asked what clothes he wants and said I will drop them off or have them ready for him to pick up.

Waiting for a reply.

No reply from him yet.

Happywoman - I am really not sure what I want. Sometimes I think I want him back if he can change, say he is sorry and really mean it and if he can stop seeing the OW and really put 100% into our relationship. But is this because we have been together so long , all of my adult life and I know no different?

However there are other times like when he brought DD back late and when I think back over exactly what he has put me though and I don't think I can ever forgive him for what he has done.....and I start to doubt if he will ever change

For now I think the best thing I can do is be reasonable about contact with DD, not enter into conversation or any arguement whith him and to keep my distance emotionally until I do know what I want.

I managed to sleep well last night and this has done me some good. I'm also off out again today so that will keep my mind off him and what he has done.

I think I felt so down yesterday because he treated DD so badly on Wednesday and I suppose because up until then, since he had left, he had been trying to contact me and was saying he wanted to make another go of things. However since Wednesday evening that has been thrown into serious doubt and I kind of feel that even if that wasn't what I wanted the option has been taken away from me. I felt as though he had gained some control back over the situation.

I guess I have to just use this time wisely and carry on thinking about what I want. The thing is it's so difficult to decide. What if he appears to change (granted so far apart from a few emails no real sign of this) we start to try again and he lets me down? What if I decide not to try and regret it for the rest of my life?

I know I don't have to decide now but the scary thing is that the decision may have already been made or taken away from me

He's back at work with OW so god knows what is going on there. He has said in his email that he isn't going to carry on with the relationship because he wants me and DD - that is his life.

I'm on the verge of ringing him and asking him to come round to talk so that I can say to him the following.

1.I want to remain on good terms for the sake of DD

1. I want to work together as her parents always in her best interests.

3.At the moment I'm not sure what I want for the future. 4.All I know is that I want to be happy and the person he had been over the years and especially over the past 7 months isn't someone that I can be happy with. However if he can truely change, put the effort in and prove to me that he really does love me and really does want to make a go of our marriage then there may be a chance of a future relationship with us.

However he must give me time to think and be alone - to make changes to who I am. He too must take this opportunity to be alone and think and work on changing his behaviour.

He must also prove to me that he is serious about it being over with OW and look for another job. There must be NO contact whatsoever with her.

Until these steps are taken we can't 'talk' about any future relationship we may have but we can keep the lines of communication open for the sake of DD.

I suppose I have already said this in my emails but emails aren't always clear and I'm scared that he has read into them that I don't ever see a future for us.

Arrrrghhhhhh what am I going to do?

I thought getting advice from lots of people was a good idea but think I may have overdone it.....most are saying the same thing - to leave him be, give ourselves some distance and to not give in to him too easily. If I do he will just continue to do what he has done because he will think he can.

But then others say that he should see how upset I am and we should talk and keep the commmunication open and I know that this has worked for Happywoman....I just really don't know what to do for the best

Which set of advice you take depends on whether you want him back or whether you want a relatively painless divorce.

Have you ever thought about it from his side? Does he want you to change too, for example?

Just sticking my oar in again - was on this thread right at the start but have followed it since then without posting as you have some good people on board.

For what its worth I think you are worrying too much about trying to make him think the right thing. You can't control how he reads your words. He doesn't think like you and this is the root of the problem. Unless he wants to change he won't. Being apart for a couple of days is only the start of the process, it's the crisis that may end up either way.

I think you need to step back and not obsess about how you can make him understand because as you say it's giving him back all the control, making it your fault that its not working out.

Be civil. Don't be needy. Wait and see how he starts to react. Don't try to micromanage it. You have had years of trying to make things work for him. Now he needs to do it by himslelf. He'll need a lot longer than this to understand that you have changed your pattern of behaviour.

I also worry that you say an awful lot that he has to prove things to you. I don't think he's had a chance to change yet, and so is therefore not in a position to prove anytihng for quite a while.

Thanks (again!) I agree with what you are saying and I know that I am too controlling in that I want to be able to change him.

I know I can't do this only he can do it - that is the logical side of me. But the emotional side wants to stop hurting and i think unless he says that's it I'm making a life with OW and I want a divorce OR he says he is def changing and starts taking steps to do this etc then I'm going to be in limbo still. I can't decide what I want to do because I feel that still depends on whether he can step up to the mark and change.

Hate feeling this way.

Perhaps I'm weird - but I always believe in talking. I totally agree with everyone that it's important to keep an emotional distance just now, and it's evident how much good that is doing you as a person (never mind him). However, if you really want to say those things, and feel you can handle saying it coolly, personally I'd do just that. He can't complain that he doesn't know where he stands if you lay things out that clearly. If it does no good, well, you're no worse off than you were before; and if it sets you back, then you can always go back to NOT talking for a bit.

Basically, all any of us can do is advise from a distance; you have to live it, and you have to do what seems right at the time. Inevitably you'll make the odd mistake; nobody can tell you for certain whether talking or not talking at this point will be the mistake. The only consolation is, it's most unlikely to be the deal breaker. It will be a step forward, or a step back - but just a step either way, which can be recovered.

Thinks: if you do go ahead with "the talk", keep a friend in the house ostensibly to mind the baby, but ready to step in and throw him out if things get too heated?

Anniegetyourgun

I too believe that talking is the way forward just that over the past 7 mths it has made no difference but then he didn't want to talk. Now he says he does - could it be different? I really don't know?

feel so stuck. I really don't know what to do for the best.

I shall wait for a reply to my email and take it from there - depending onhow he responds

Its funny though isn't it how the silent treatment is a major punishment when meted to a woman, so we do it when we really want to punish someone. On the other hand men quite like not having to speak about feelings so they don't think its a punishment at all.

Yes, i know your DH wants to talk... I was just commenting generally about men v women.

Throwing him out has evidently been quite a shock, so maybe he actually is ready to talk. Though whether that means he is able to listen is another question. Mainly though, the point is now it is your choice whether to communicate or not. Your decision. You choose whether to say these things or let him stew for a while longer. You are in the driving seat at last. It's scary, but also liberating. You aren't doing this to please him but to tell him what YOU want, and if he doesn't like it, tough; alternatively you're not meeting yet because YOU aren't ready. You are a whole human being, not his appendage, and you are standing up for your right to be treated with (I love how you have repeatedly used the word in your last few posts) RESPECT. And start, of course, by respecting yourself, because you really do deserve it.

quinne - I agree! now he isn't responding to my email he has gained some control and I feel like I am being punished

The whole situation is messing with my head so much.

At the moment I'm not sure if he even wants to speak to me still - he's certainly not acting like it I know it's cos he felt out of control and it's a knee jerk reaction.

Also the thing is now that I have said that I will discuss access to DD with him and he can pick up his clothes and he has simply ignored me Whereas a few days ago he would have jumped at the chance to talk to me.

Part of me thinks I've done the right thing by allowing myself some time away from him so we can both think but another part of me is worried that by doing so I have limited my choices because he thiks that I don't want him back ever - not sure myself if I do atm but I don't want that decision taken away from me either.

Also I know i shouldn't but I really do care if he is now confiding in the OW again....and quite possibly more I know if he is then his emails last week mean nothing but maybe I've blown my chance of any kind of future relationship - if thats what I decide I want.

Why me? Why has he done this too me after so long together? after all we have been through with DD....

MHIS you can't 'blow your chance' IF he really wants to come back. Answering the door and being a bit shirty with him when the bay was brought back late and was crying, is not enough to 'put him off' if he really loves and wants you. Which IS all that's happened, isn't it! And you even e-mailed him quickly to say that he could have the stuff he asked for!

Again, this is down to HIS behaviour, and nothing YOU have done.

If he wants to come back it will take more than that to stop him contacting you and asking to come back etc.

So much good advice on here I don't really have anything to add.

As has been pointed out so many times, you can only change your own behaviour, not his.

I just want to shake him and shout "Grow up!" but that wouldn't work either (although it would be hugely therapeutic I reckon )

You cannot blow your chance, just like HG said, you reacted in a normal way. Had you chased him about with a carving knife and screamed that he would never see his dd again, then you would have been unreasonable. But you were not. You were as reasonable as anyone is when presented with a screaming baby by a person who has caused the crying by selfishness.

Write down all the things you want to say to him. Then go throught the list. Cross out anything that is explaining your own behaviour (you have nothing to justify). Is there anything left beyond practicalities? If not, then I think you need more time to formulate your thoughts.

Did that make any sense?

I think I do YKNOTC - do you mean if I have no questions for him or anything I want to say about how I feel atm then don't contact him? Although I don't think me questionning him is the way forward as this has not helped in the past.

I suppose atm I want him to come round and tell me what he wants to say, more than me talking to him if IYSWIM

He still hasn't replied to my email so I'm not going to contact him before he does - think that will make me look too needy. I'm really surprised that he hasn't tho as I would have thought he would want to arrange contact with LO if nothing else

In a word Dittany NO!
But yes I think I would try again but only if he is truely sorry and can change drastically - he has said he is willing and wants to do this in his last email but then his behaviour on Wed was the complete opposite to this.

I'm going to have a think what I would want to say/hear and then post on here and see what you all think!

He's not proactive though is he? Right at the beginning of the thread you said he can never make a decision without agony, and even then doesn't know if it's the Right Answer.

He is one of life's "victims" - in his eyes everything happens to him and its not his fault. You chucking him out, and possibly even when his relationship started up with OP - he probably doesn't feel he made it happen.

All I'm saying is don't necessarily expect him to start being decisive and taking responsibility for himself just because you have asked him to leave the house. I suspect he would need quite a lot of counselling work to help him change his worldview to be honest. This crisis may be the thing that makes him realise he needs to get a grip, or it may just confirm him in his commitophobia...

(This is all based on my experience of watching someone else go through this, so I may be projecting too much of what I know of that situation onto yours, but I think it's a pretty common state of affairs. I think you are doing fantastically by the way and that you will come out of this a really strong person.)

Just had a long chat with RL friend and also had a good think. Not decided yet whetehr the time is right to speak to him about 'us'and to a large extent this is going to depend on how he responds to my last email regarding contact.

If I was to speak to him this is what I would like to say.

I'm still hurt from what has happened and I am still not sure what I want for the future. This is why I need some more time and space.

There was no future for our relationship because I could not be with the person he had become. It wasn't healthy for either of us.

If there is to be an 'us' in the future it is going to have to be a completely new relationship. However this can only be achieved through a lot of hard work, time and effort. He must take responsibility for what he put me through and I need to believe that he is truely sorry for what was said and done and be certain that he has changed. We both need to look at ourselves and both make changes.

However at the moment I am unable to commit to what I want from the future. Other than I want to be happy and secure, to be treated with respect. Maybe he can be that person in time but only time will tell.

I think that the time is coming to say this in person.