How am I going to get through this :( (long post sorry!)

[MyHeadIsSpinning]

I've been with DH for over 10yrs, married for 1 and have a new baby. LO was born prem and we have been going through hell but she is home now and doing well.

DH has always been indecisive and before each major milestone, getting engaged, a house, married etc he has had a panic and discussed splitting up as he doesn't think he loves me enough to get engaged, buy a house, get married etc.

However once we have talked things through and he has had his stress he always decides that he does love me and wants to be with me.

Surprisingly getting pregnant was one thing that he didn't stress about and was really happy that we were expecting. When I delilved LO early and it was touch and go for me and LO - apparently cos I was out of it but have been told by various people - DH was a bit of a mess which was understandable, ie couldn't speak for crying. However he won't talk about this and although has been supportive during the weeks LO was in hospital on SCBU I feel he could have been there for me more than he was.

Over the weekend things have come to a head. We've been having a few niggly arguements and he has said over the past few weeks that he isn't sure if he loves me enough (again) and has been thinking about us splitting up. Yesterday I made a real effort - did my hair and make up etc and tried hard to make an effort - we had agreed to do this the night before. However DH didn't notice the effort I had made and was sullen all day only speaking when I spoke to him etc. When I cracked and said that his behaviour was upsetting me and I was upset that he hadn't commented that I looked nice - he said that he hadn't noticed that I'd made an effort and didn't think I looked as though I had particularyly

We had a 'discussion' during which he told me that;

He feels it would have been easier if I had died when havign LO as this would have ade things easier for him ie wouldn't have to decided to stay with me or not - this really hurt and he knows how bad it sounded.

He doesn't feel that he loves me enough and wishes that he's 'had the balls to leave me before marrying an having a baby'

When I asked why he married me he said he thought it would be a solution to how he was feeling about being not sure about the relationship and everyone else seemed to think it was a good idea. He was NOT pressurised into marrying me or indeed even staying with me.

The arguement went on until I said that I wasn't prepared to share our baby and him be a weekend dad. That isn't why I brought her into the workd to be passed about between two homes etc. I told him that it's all or nothing he either has us both or looses us both cos I'm not beign a part time mum and our daughter needs a full time dad.

He went to walk out of the room and I asked him how he felt right then - he replied like he wants to die

I left him to cool off and then went upstairs to see him. He was sat on the bed crying. He Said that he loves our daughter and doesn't want to be a part time dad but isn't sure that he loves me enough etc. He broke down and cried so hard he was howling and holding on to me - this is not like him he cries but only a little. This was a major breakdown kind of cry.

We have decided to see how things go for a couple of months and both make a real effort to make our marriage work He has said that he would rather fall back in love with me and make it work but at the moment isn't sure that this is possible.

I just feel so empty and don't know what to think. Part of me feels so sorry for him cos I love him and he is hurting and I want to make things better but can't) I have suggested that maybe he is depressed after the birth and the general situation and he said that he doesn't think so cos he just feels the same way as he has previously.

On the other hand I'm so angry with him for what he has said and that he is taking away this precious time with my new baby cos I can't enjoy her as much as I would cos I'm worried about the future and being on my own if he does leave us.

He finds talking difficult so I'm off to buy a couple of notepads for us both to write our feeligns in about the relationship and anything else over the coming months - I feel for me it will be cathartic and help when I really want to talk and he doesn't, for him I hope that writing down his feeligns and fears will help put them into perspective and help him to work through how he feels whatever the outcome may be.

I just feel sooo sad and can't stop thinking about what he has said and also part of me thinks that maybe we shoudl just call it a day and I can move on and find someone who does love me although not sure this would work as the person I want to love me doesn't Also I really don't want to be a single parent.

That sounds like a better plan for the visit.

I know how hard it is but it is too early to talk to him about mending your marriage. It is a chronic problem. If it could be resolved by talking, it would have happened already. Please don't let yourself be drawn into emotional conversations with him, conversations about your relationship - it's just all talk. He is the same man who was texting the o.w. on your holiday. He won't have changed in a few days just because you chucked him out. He has a lot of growing up to do and that will only happen if he has time on his own and if he has time to reflect on what he has lost, if he understands that he has lost you.

I think you are so familiar to him that he doesn?t know your value. I am worried that he might have gone to live with, or at least be seeing, the woman from work. Please protect yourself in case of this. You don?t know as yet but, if he has done this, he may in time realise that she is not (she is less tolerant than?) you and that he would prefer to be with you - but this will take time. Would you take him back after that? The other woman may be pursuing him. Was it he or her that initiated the texting on your holiday? Even if he did want to come back to you, he may find it difficult to break it off with her because he works with her.

You have to think with your head and not your heart. If he says he loves you and misses you, it is just an initial reaction to your chucking him out, not a real change of heart (yet). He just wants his own way, whatever is easiest for him. He doesn't want to lose his home and family, to have to deal with the emotional, practical and financial issues of setting up on his own while still paying for you and his daughter. You and he have this in common but the difference is that he will still want to have his cake and eat it, to have the security and ease and comfort of family life with you at the same time as having the freedom and excitement of the single life.

He has not grown up and does not wish to take responsibility. This was there all along but has become clearer since your daughter was born. A man having an affair because a child has been born and he is no longer your only focus - childish and cliched. He may be depressed and we can summise that his having the affair was maybe his way of dealing with the difficult emotions brought on by your dd's premature birth, emotions he couldn't handle. It is possible to summon up some sympathy for this but, in any case, for anything to work between you, he still has to change, to grow up. As someone else has said, if you are wise and if there is ever to be anything between you in the future, it should have to be a whole new relationship with a different person - the 'new' grown-up him.

Ultimatums don?t work with someone like him. It will just become clear over time whether he wants to come back or not. Let him taste his ?freedom? for a while, feel the relief of lack of responsibility, and then realise that ?freedom? is not all it?s cracked up to be, that it can be as scary as responsibilities, and that he does still have responsibilities whether he is with you or not. If he does want to come back, he is probably still confident of being able to persuade you. On the other hand, it might be that he thinks he wants to be with the other woman but is not going to come out and say this right now for fear of burning his bridges with you and his daughter. The most that will probably happen right now is that you will agree that you both need time to think (you because you want him to change and him because he wants to hedge his bets for the time being). If you decide you do want him back, be realistic, you may have to accept that he won't change and he won't ever make you happy ? this would allow you to keep your family intact but may not really be the best thing for you and your daughter.

Thanks for your comments Raggerty. He is def not living with OW. He is at his parents. Whether he is/has been in contact with her I don't know. My gut feeling is that he hasn't but he has lied so much I can't trust him at all atm.

It's so difficult to know what to do for the best.

Some people are saying go with my gut instinct and others are saying no contact,no way.

I think I will stick with no/very minimal contact for the time being as this seems to be working so far. My only concern, as I have said, is that he will go running to OW if I reject him too much. BUT then if he does he s just showing his true colours and isn't the man I want.

It's difficult to describe but I want to prevent anything horrible happening by trying to control the situation ie I want to talk to him so he has no excuse to talk to OW BUT I realise that I was here for him and willing to talk and he still went to the OW.

I know logically what I need to do and I suppose I just have to keep telling myself this!

Anyone else been in this situation - how long dod you hold out for before speaking to your DH/P? Had you a;ready decided by then what you wanted?

Something similar happened to a friend of mine. She and H had been together for about 10 years. Things were not perfect in the relationship but the couple had much in common and overall it seemed ok. However he had dragged his heels at each stage ? living together, marriage etc. He wanted a baby though, so he pushed this idea and was delighted by the pregnancy etc.
I would have to say though that the wife was a living nightmare during the pregnancy ? precious, prickly and generally just awful to be around (she was these things with everyone but I guess he caught the brunt of it). The husband was more amiable generally but he couldn?t fully disguise how self-centred he was ? it showed in a lot of ways, even before the wife got pregnant. Halfway through the pregnancy, the husband started an emotional affair. With only a month to the birth it turned into a physical affair and was immediately discovered. The marriage ended the same day.
The H went to the OW and they set up home together. Now they are married.
The wife strongly didn?t want her marriage to end and for a long time she wanted him back, even on the day she threw him out. He wavered and I think he would have gone back when the baby was born if he?d been given the chance, but she wouldn?t/ couldn?t bring herself to speak to him at that time and I think she was pleased to think that he wanted to be there but she was preventing him. When they did start speaking again, she couldn?t help herself from being extremely bitter (who could blame her?). She saw the baby as exclusively hers too. Almost as though the baby was part of her rather than a separate human being. The husband was allowed access to the baby on her terms and she played it as a power game ? you must attend at this time, do these things and leave at this time.
At the same time the OW played her hand wonderfully: she was empathetic, loving, always supportive of his need to interrupt their weekend or be out in the evening because he had been given an hour with his DD. She is really not the warmhearted, understanding woman she portrayed herself as and that is clear now, but she had the benefit of being able to draw herself on a blank page because it was such a new relationship.
After a couple of months, the wife finally felt able to be more pleasant and she made huge efforts to rebuild the relationship with the husband. I think he was tempted to go back, but by then the OW really had her claws into him. So eventually they got divorced.
It really was touch and go whether they would reconcile for quite a while. If they had, I think they would be together now but I am not sure the wife could ever have forgiven the husband and even if she could then the relationship was never going to make either of them truly happy. To be honest though, in real life people are rarely truly happy. As an outsider I think they are probably happier apart, but really not so much that it was worth all that heartache.

The DD does not see much of her father though. He loves her and calls himself Dad but he never really got the chance to be a proper father, so he behaves more like an indulgent uncle. They see each other when mutually convenient as the DD is at nursery now and has lots of birthday parties to attend at weekends. At first access was limited by the mother, but then the OW started to fill up the father?s free time with social things. Honestly ? what is more tempting: a Saturday afternoon looking after a 2 year old or a weekend away with your new wife?
So overall I?d say the DD was the loser. The adults moved on but the DD lost the chance to be brought up by both parents.

I am half tempted not to post this as I don?t want to distress you and each relationship is different. Really I just wanted to warn you against bringing your LO into this, even inadvertently. Whichever way it goes for the adults, it will be better for her if both of you can have as full a role in her life as possible.

Thanks for your post Amygirl.

I really do not want to use DD as a 'bargaining tool' in all this which is why I am allowing him access today. I also plan to allow him to see her at weekend but plan to email him this rather than entering a discussion when he comes this evening.

At the moment it has to be on my terms as I am not ready to have contact with DH so the last thing I want to do is say that he can see her whenever and he come round all the time because he wants to wheedle his way back into my life too. Also if I say he can see her as much as he wants because she is BF atm I can't be too far for too long so it would seriously limit what I can do and I don't want him to have any control over that.

With time I am willing to allow him more access but he has to prove to me that he is making changes and he does want to do what's best for me and DD, whether that leads to us making a go of our marriage or not remains to be seen and only time will tell.

I think that sounds like a good plan.

I don't think people are saying not to talk to him for 6 month. But that he needs that much time alone to begin to change. If you do decide to get back to together I would advise you to see it as a new relationship. Don't let him move back in, but do "date" and go on family days out, that sort of thing. That way you will know how committed he is and he wouldn't have to move out again if it didn't work.

Just don't talk for a couple of weeks, until the shock dies down a bit and you can think more clearly and rationally about what is best for you.

I do have to say that one of my conditions for even getting back together would be that he found a new job. I wouldn't believe him if he said the OW would leave before too long. I would want that demonstration. But that is just me.

Amygirl's friend's situation sounds quite different, particularly since you have tried everything to improve your relationship and care so much about dd's relationship with her father.

I hope this evening goes well.

Do not get engaged in conversation with him. If he tries to talk to you give blunt yes-or-no answers and then say you're not ready to talk and walk away if he persists. Go out, leave them all to it. Try to arrange to come back 5 mins after he will have left so you don't have to do a big goodbye and your friend can kick him out.

This is not the time to discuss dd's developments. Just for the next couple of weeks until you are stronger and know what you want to do, try to keep everything to the basics.

Hope counselling goes/went well and that you feel able to face this evening.

Hello everyone. Been to counselling. My counsellor said i seemed tons better since DH has gone. Much stronger and look loads better.

We talked through things and I've changed my plan.

I've decided that tonight when he comes I will hand over DD with all her stuff ready so he can take her out for a couple of hours.

That way he has time alone with her, I don't have to talk to him, he can choose what to do with her and if he chooses to he can take her to his parents and his mum gets to see her. Meanwhile I get ot have a meal with my friend. Win win situation. he then has to prove that he can be trusted, will bring her back when I ask.

I'm also not going to give him a disc with the pics on. I can save all these things for him when I am ready for him to know.

Right off to feed, feed , feed so LO can be without me for a few hrs!

excellent MHIS

Have a nice meal and chat with your friend!

Thats sounds perfect - it is hard not to use the lo as a tool but it can work both ways in that he will see what he is really missing out on too.

I know it is hard but do try not to think about the ow too much - but you should have some rules ready if it is to work out for you. My h went back to work with ow - and we thought she may leave - however h hated seeing her and being reminded what he had done and so he has got another job - it is not always the answer, it was not as hard as i had thought at first them still seeing each other and in reality if it was still going on a move of job would probably make it easier.

Anyway - good luck and have a lovely meal you sound so much stronger already.

Thanks he will be here in 30min. Just making sure I'm together and look good - so he knows what he is missing - also makes me feel better about myself.

Will update once he's brought her back.

Keep your fingers crossed for me !

Actually Dittany I am being generous about her compared to what most people said at the time until he left! Her behaviour in pregnancy had nothing to do with her marriage, until he left of course. No one expected him to leave after 10 years - we were all shocked!

I can see why she behaved the way she did after he left and I omitted things which were heart breaking but which would also have helped identify her.

However, she did go through bouts of wanting to inflict pain on him and unfortunately for the baby she lost the only chance she had of keeping her marriage together. She wanted to be married to him, so as that was her plan, you can't say she did not shoot herself in the foot.

He's to blame for most of this. His behaviour was unacceptable, but he is still the only father the child has.

That was another thing that came out of this, his name became a by-word for bad behaviour. How does that make the child feel as she grows up knowing that people this this of her dad?

So he arrived 20 min late and is now almist 15 min late picking bringing her back. i so don't want an arguement about this but how can I make sure he doens't keep doing it.

So annoyed with him

Any suggestions?

I hope you are ok MHIS.

Did he give a reason for being late? Was it at all valid?

If you think he arrived late on purpose, either as passive agression or to blatantly annoy you, you can ignore it or tell him it is unacceptable. Either way, he may do it again in the future, to wind you up and/or to mess up your plans for the time he is with your dd.

You can't really give him an ultimatum because it won't work. You wouldn't want to try and stop him from seeing his dd.

It is not uncommon for the parent who moves out to assert their independence by turning up late or cancelling/postponing at the last minute. It just adds up to a battle for control between the parents. Nobody can win and you will end up torturing yourself about how you can do the right thing for your dd.

The only thing I can suggest is that you ignore it, don't rise to it, in the hope that, if it doesn't get a reaction, he won't do it again.

The other thing you could do is, if he is late for the visit and is at your house, still return at the originally arranged time and he just gets a shorter visit. After all, any visits will have been arranged to fit in with your dd's routine (and not just yours or his) and her routine should not be upset because he doesn't turn up on time. So, if he turns up late, he forfeits some of his time with her. ? But this may not suit you either.

But, if he wants to annoy you, he will find some way of doing it. I would just low-react, try to ignore it. The problem is that you will never be sure whether he is going to turn up on time and that means you can't make fixed plans to meet people or do things at certain times.

Whatever you do, try not to lose your temper.

He finally arrived 25 min late with DD crying cos she was hungry

I opened the door, took her off him and passed her to my friend. He went back to the car and got her bag etc

As he gave it to me he asked if he could come in and get some more of his clothes. I said no, he had pushed it in that he had brought DD back 25 min late. He said 'so? it's only 25 min'. I remained calm and simply replied that it wasn't 'just 25 min' she needed a feed, a bath etc. He got angry and stormed off saying that I won't always be in control and it's not only him who thinks that.

I just closed the door.

My friend was witness to it all.

Can't believe that he has been so stupid and hurtful again. Just goes to show that his emails and txts were just words and didn't mean a thing.

However what I am really sad about is the fact that he has done this to our child. He has been so mean by bringing her back late when she was hungry. She was really tired and hungry and took ages to settle - not like her at all

He didn't even ask to see her again. However I won't stop him seeing her because I do feel that she has a right to see her daddy and he, despite all he has done, to see her. BUT I will NOT tolerate him hurting her or not acting in her best interests and tonight he didn't act in her best interests in the slightest.

The ball is now in his court. He will have to contact me if he wants to see her again. I'm done with bending over backwards to accomodate him.

I do know that he has reacted this way because he has lost control of the situation, so predictable really but just so sad and hurt that he has. I really thought he could change if he really put his mind to it, now I'm not so sure and even if he did, the things he has said and done aren't going to be that easily rectified especially after this evening.

It was the perfect opportunity to show me how he wants to change and prove that he does love me as he has said in his email. BUt what did he do - just behaved in a way that showed the complete opposite.

Argh! He is an idiot. He is being completely unreasonable and selfish. Well done you for not rising to it. Your poor dd.

Don't get in touch with him. Ignore everything he said. "Just 25 mins" when you have made a fixed arrangement is so... argh . It's not even as though he can claim that he couldn't bear to be apart from her - he was late!

At least you now know that his promises were just words. He is not the man you need him to be at the moment. He's barely a man at all. He is behaving like a spoiled child.

Considering how careful you have been not to use dd as a weapon in all of this and to put her first, despite how hurt you are feeling, he still... argh!

Very on your behalf!

x

I know I really can't believe how stupid he has been. DD fast asleep now - finally got her settled.

i just felt so bad that she had suffred because i had let him take her. I know it's not my fault but felt so sorry for her.

I'm angry because I let him take her, okay partly so I didn't have to spend time with him, but mainly so that he could spend time with her without me looking over his shoulder. I didn't give him any instructions ie not to take her to x or y and I didn't think that saying he could have her for 2hrs was unreasonable expecially after he had arrived 20 min late.

I trusted him to look after her, respect my wishes and not to take the piss - and he did

Arrrghhhhh really don't know if/how we can move on from here. I thought he may have gone home and realised what he had done and emailed or txt to apologise. But nothing.

Off to get some sleep now. Thanks for replying x

Will catch up tomorrow.

so sorry it has turned out like this.

I dont think you need to totally ignore the emails - you need to be seen to be as reasonable as possible in all things so he will have to realise that it is him who needs to change not you.

Before he gets a chance to say you have been unreasonable to say you have not let him have some clothes - you could appologise and explain it was because you were under pressure because you were anxious about dd. Let him see this is not the usual undetstanding reasonable you.

Good luck.
And well done for giving him the 2 hours i know how hard it is.

Sorry also meant to say - i do believe he can change his ways but he needs to want to - not because you have 'told' him too.

What you are doing is showing him how to behave not telling him, so everything you do should be how you would want to be treated iyswim.

Thanks HappyWoman.

Still no apology from him . I understand what you are saying about appearing to be reasonable and to get in first. However I have repeatedly said no contact and by making contact by email I feel that I am undermining what I have said.

He knows that he has been unreasonable and I have been nothing but reasonable despite being the one who has been messed about and lied to. He said in his last email he didn't expect a reply because I don't want contact and he will change for the positive.

It's so difficult because I don't want to email and a) ruin all the work I've put in and b) appear as tho I have done something wrong.

Plus that is exactly what I would normally do if he reacts like this to a situation - try and explain myself and make it better. It hasn't worked so far has it

I was planning on waiting for him to make contact then I can say my piece.

Also one of the issues he used to complain about was that I was paranoid and overanxious. I feel if I use this as a reason - which was the real reason I was so upset - started thinking what if they'd been in a crash etc -then he will just throw that back in my face

God this is so hard when there are no rules. My counsellor said try hard not to get into playing 'a game' with him. ie don't do things to try and make him react in a certain way. I'm so not doing that and yet he is just pushing and pushing me for a reaction.

He had asked for his belt in his last email and I actually had it ready to give to him but was stressed when he came to pick up DD and forgot and when he came back I just wanted to get her in and feed her and get rid of him I forgot again.

You see, I'm not being ureasonable and he knows that. He sent me an email saying thank you when I let him pick up some stuff at weekend - I left everything he asked for.

I know it's his reaction to his new lack of control of the situation but he has put me through so much and has been so controlling for so long that I suppose there was bound to be an outburst at some point.

Happywoman - did you DH ever do anything similar/have a similar reaction to the lack of control?

Yes my dh did get very angry - we both did actually. He once threatened to take the children away from me as he said i wasnt coping (no i probably wasnt but he had choosen to leave ffs).

I do understand about the not playing games - but do you yet think you know what you want? Do you really want him to change and come begging back (it would be nice at first i know but is that what you really want).
I suppose i am saying that do you still love him and want to give him a chance.

Change will not happen overnight and you will both have to do some soul-searching and swallowing some pride.

Well done to you for admitting you tend to be a bit paraniod and over reacting. That is a step. The hard thing is 'allowing' him to show he is changeing without being too hard on him too - if that is what you really want. He will make mistakes, as we all do. You can recover from this if you both want to make it work.

Try to not look for the negatives and point those out (he was late, ....) instead try and find something possitive to 'thank' him for.

I understand about the email contact - you dont want to appear to be 'weak' and giving in. Is there some way you could get some stuff to him without contact - take it to his parents maybe? Remember you have done noting wrong and so do not need to feel embarrased - if his mum does try to blame you - just say if h wants it to work he knows what he has to do and leave it at that.

Do what feels right for you - and if you do make what you see as a mistake dont worry too much about it - there is no right or wrong way to go about these things anyway.

Take care, and look after yourself.

he may be scared to appologise - especially if you would normally have reated badly. Like i have said before you need to show him how you want him to behave.
You said you would normally have 'given in' by now so that is what he is expecting too.

This is all alien to him and you cant blame him for not knowing what to do for the best.

Thanks Happywoman

I think I may take some bits to his parents house later/tomorrow. His mum will be at work. So don't have to see her.

I know he is going to get angry etc but FGS I've been more than reasonable and this was his first chance to step up to the mark and he didn't even try.

Deep down I do want him to change yes. I think I do want him back if he can step up to the mark and do this BUT only if he can.

After last night I'm doubting even more if he can truely change

I think Happywoman is giving you some excellent advice, and if I were in your shoes I'd follow it to the letter. Honestly I would and ignore the rest (my own included_

However, do you think you could also do with some male advice? If you want DH to change his behaviour (obviously you cannot expect him to change his character), then maybe it would be helpful to see things from a male perspective too? Your counselor doesn't sound too great - far too emotionally involved and giving you instructions rather than encouraging you to work it out for yourself. If you decide to replace her, what about going for a male counselor instead? Only a thought!

I think taking things to his Mum is a great idea too. It shows you aren't being unreasonable at all, but also shows you are incharge of the situation as you wouldn't let him just barge in whenever he pleased to get his stuff.

I agree with peasoup about the clothes. He wanted to come into your home while dd was screaming to "get a few things", regardless of the fact that you had asked him to tell you what he needed so that you could get them. Dropping off the clothes means that you are still being reasonable but are also maintaining your boundaries.

Being late on your first visit to your daughter since you left is unacceptable. I don't think any woman in the country would have been able to keep their cool in that situation. If my dh took ds2 out for the day and said he'd definitely be back at x time and then was late, I would be anxious!

You need to try to do things with no thought for how he feels about your actions. He was so controlling for so long, it's not just going to go away overnight, but you need to try. Do some things just for you, if you can. Spoil yourself a little. You deserve it. You're still doing fantastically