Why am I so damn unpopular?

[DeadFlowersInAVase]

Just that really.

I've always had problems with friendships. Not so much making them but keeping them.

I have a partner and 2 adult children but no friends. People just don't like me!

I'm not a people pleaser and I'm not an arsehole either. I'm reliable, not flakey, don't dominate conversations, remember things people have said and ask after them. I'm told I'm funny. I have good boundaries. Just a normal person really!

It really stands out to me because I also have a brother who I'm seeing over Christmas. All of his other days are booked up with seeing friends and doing stuff. And I don't understand it. He's grumpy and irascible (which has caused him to lose friends over the years) but he still has friends from school, university, work etc and has fallen out with a few (due to his behaviour) but they seem to have made up over the years and he still sees them. I don't understand it because he's selfish and self centred, dominates conversations and can be quite unpleasant at times. He's great company when he's not being like this but I don't think there's a single one of his friends who hasn't been on the end of one of his diatribes at some point.

My partner has friends he's known since school.

I know other people who have good strong friendships. People who have dubious political beliefs, who get too drunk and offend others.

People seem to like me well enough - colleagues, people I know socially, people through hobbies. But I don't actually have a single friend!

I mean, it can't just be that I have dead flowers in a vase. Can it..?

I'm sorry you feel this way. Do you actually feel lonely or just sort of inadequate because you think you should have more friends on paper, if you see what I mean?
Do you make the effort to stay in touch with people after you leave school/uni/jobs etc? It's sometimes not about you as such but more "out of sight out of mind". It takes a huge amount of effort to maintain friendships and they can be so easily lost without making that effort relentlessly. I have to admit that I didn't fully appreciate this until I was in my late twenties and had lost a few friendships as a result. Now I try quite hard to maintain the ones that are important to me

Are you unlike your brother because you're gentle, quiet, kind and naturally agreeable? I think this can make making friends difficult because people can't get a strong read of your personality traits.

I'm very marmite. Loud, random and bad at social rules. Kind too but sarcastic. Because of this people either think I'm great or can't stand me but I always make an impression for good and for ill. I've tried very hard to be different but due to life experiences and genetics it's just who I am.

I have a few ride or die friendships and old friends that are deeply loyal to me and quite a few who have quite rightly cut me off over the years.

You need to find your tribe of people who are like you where your natural personality can shine and people can get to know you. Are you a friendship instigator? If you're quietly trying to build up a friendship and nervous it can take time. My wife is totally opposite to me. She works really well getting to know people over time through shared volunteering/ hobbies.

I don't always think the ability to connect and make friendships with people is a true reflection of a nice person. People who are good at making friends tend to be good at having fun, holding a good conversation and organising stuff with the people they meet. One of my closest friends is an absolute genius at making friends because of these traits.

Whilst I see her good points, she is also quite opinionated and I wouldn't want to be alone with her for days at a time.

I'm more like you naturally but I've learnt that it's okay to have an opinion and disagree, if I want a friendship I can ask for it.

I am kind but I'm not naturally quiet, gentle or agreeable. That's why I said I'm not a people pleaser - because I don't have a personality that can't be read but I'm not an arsehole either. I'm not unpleasant to people.

I don't expect to be liked by everyone but, like I say, I don't have any friends.

I've got a hobby that isn't stereotypically a female hobby so I meet mostly men through it. The women I do meet through it are generally hoping to catch the attention of one of the men so aren't really interested in me 😁 but I'm friendly and sociable all the same.

I don't think I'm boring - I go to gigs and festivals, I'm happy to go alone but would rather go with friends if I'm honest. I do do these things with my partner but, if we do go with other people, they're his friends rather than ours. We've only been together for three years and live together.

I'm happy to have a few beers, chat to people and dance. I'm not uptight, don't get easily offended (but will speak up if I think someone is being a dick), I don't take myself too seriously but I don't get drunk, never knowingly insult or offend people. Treat others as I'd like to be treated.

@DeadFlowersInAVase Ahhh. I think you have the opposite problem then. You're too cool. People probably think you have tons of friends, prefer going out with the boys and are happy to dance alone. Maybe join a going to gigs group or is that the lots of males hobby? Maybe you need a staying still hobby. It also depends where you are. Area too small and everyone knows each other. Too big and it can be more of an aloof culture. I actually met one of my bessies on bumble BFF

I sympathise because I'm in the same situation (but no partner).
Is it that you've had friends in the past, but they've not stuck around? (Presumably you've had friends at some point).

See if you can relate to any of the following and we can compare notes:
-I'm independent
-Don't like your typical girly stuff. Would never dream of shopping, coffee, gossip, magazines, fashion etc. I'm not saying most women do (I've no idea) but it describes me well. I want to talk about books, philosophy, my hobbies, pets, the world....the list is long. Or even better, just hang out in the pub.
-Like to do more activity based stuff, what some would consider typical male hobbies, and often get on with men better. I put it down to growing up with a brother, plus just how I am. Perhaps a bit of a tomboy, but (at least when younger) considered very attractive.
-Never been popular, never, ever, anywhere or at any time. At school I put this down to never following the crowd or ...people pleasing...perhaps, as you put it. I was bullied.
-I'm a little quiet and like weird things like walking alone in the rain. It's possible people don't like certain things like that.
-I'm funny, a great listener, very giving and generous, but I also like my alone time. I feel like I don't really need anyone; I just would enjoy a reciprocal friendship, which is supportive and fun.
-But I often prefer my pets
-When I can't get anyone interested in doing the stuff I want to do, such as ice skating, rather than tag along with other people's activities which I don't want to do, I take myself ice skating.
-I have at times in my life tried to adjust to make people like me. It doesn't work. So might as well just be myself and not be liked.
-I kept 3 friends from childhood, but they have all eventually given me the cold shoulder. I don't really know why. One friend from my twenties has stuck by me though, and actually seems to like me.

Edit: My brother is also extremely popular and seems to have hundreds of friends. He's more outgoing and rather charming. I'm definitely not charming.

Could it be you just haven't found your people yet? It's what I'm holding onto. I've been in many places and situation throughout my life that weren't right for me, so it makes sense I wouldn't have met the right people.

ive learnt to people please when needed, and take an intrest in others, and usually try to get them talking about themselves,
then other times i can be confient and take charge when need, and try to understand the layers of machivellian perspectives.

overall they either like me, dont or indifferent. i just try to get along with others and it can be a mix or they can curse me to high heaven.

You wont find the answer here. If you're genuine and not looking for a vent then the best people to ask are those who you trust to be realistic and kind and who know you well. Perhaps your partner, brother, parents etc Gently ask for the unvarnished truth and that it's "important for my growth to try to understand where I might be putting people off or distancing myself."

There's also therapy. We all have deep ingrained beliefs about others from ages that often predate conscious memory. Figuring this out would do all your relationships well.

Is your brother charming? that smooths over all kinds of ills.

I like how you sound @DeadFlowersInAVase I’m a marmite person, it suits me to be that way, I’ve experienced trauma so I’m not particularly trusting of people anymore so I like pretty strong boundaries with others. I have noticed that having strong boundaries and maybe even just decent boundaries is detrimental to friendships. Maybe that might be part of your issue.

Do you actually feel lonely or just sort of inadequate because you think you should have more friends on paper, if you see what I mean?

Both at different times. At the moment, I just feel curious about it. But I'm going into my Christmas holiday from work and, other than seeing my brother, I don't have any plans - I've tried! But not one of my invitations or suggestions has been accepted. And that just got me thinking again.

I obviously know people but making an effort doesn't work.

So last weekend my partner and I went to a gig. Great band but only a small local gig. I invited 3 couples. All of them cancelled within 24 hours beforehand. And this sort of thing happens every time I try to invite anyone to anything. Even just out for a drink or coffee or round to the house for the evening. I haven't met up socially with anyone this year at all. Not had a text exchange with anyone that wasn't instigated by me (I've checked - there aren't many to look through!). Not received a phone call and mine have gone unanswered.

I've issued so many invitations to people I know this year and, when I look back, one couple came round for dinner once in August and thats it.

It's not that I haven't seen anyone - I've been to see a band and bumped into people I know but I won't see them again until the next time that happens.

I won't get a 'Merry Christmas' greeting from a friend and I've no one to send them to.

Is your brother charming? that smooths over all kinds of ills.

No. He's a bit of a dick tbh. Fell out with people when our dad died if he didn't think they'd shown enough sympathy. He has very little consideration for others; quite anti social. He famously fell asleep in the living room at a party and then woke up to have a loud sweary rant because people weren't being considerate of him sleeping and had woken him up. At a party. He can be great fun but everyone has seen the other side of him more than once - he doesn't care because he thinks he's right. And yet his Christmas calendar is full of catching up and going out with people.

I have noticed that having strong boundaries and maybe even just decent boundaries is detrimental to friendships

I've felt like that at times (and I still think it) but I'm thinking of people who've not even got close enough to find out my boundaries.

Csharpminor

Tbh, I have done in the past. But I'm not close enough to anyone other than my partner to ask them. Either that or there are only people I don't know well. My brother is my only surviving family and he has a history of weaponising other people's vulnerabilities so my relationship with him is quite superficial if I'm honest. My partner has no idea. No one I've asked previously has been able to give me a reason.

easilydistracted1

Definitely not too cool. But I have wondered if people just don't think of me because they assume I must have real friends somewhere else. I don't.

Do you show vulnerability?
I’m asking because true human connections happen when people feel needed, loved and accepted for who they are, not for who they portray or act within a certain social context.

It also takes a lot of time, and working full time, COL, etc, takes it’s toll.
I run, just an example. I have a running partner, it started in lockdown, when I was worried about running on my own, so I asked this lady at my running club that I noticed lived near me, if she wouldn’t mind running together for safety. She said yes, and since 2000 we’ve been running once a week before work. We tell each other EVERYTHING, it’s like therapy 😂.

That kind of thing.
HTH

I think I feel the same as you , OP.

I wonder if sometimes people want friends they can gain something from and they can’t get that from us.

I’m the same. Genuinely think I am likeable. Colleagues always seem keen to chat to me. Other mums etc. I do people favours, and they help me ( normally taking turns for after school activities ) standard stuff.

Its like I know everyone snd can have a lovely chat but it’s never any deeper. I think Pp has a point that perhaps you are seen as capable and not really in need of friends. People like drama and a bit of vulnerability. I roll with things and solve any issues as I go. I am busy though I work 50 hours + lots of kid stuff. I suspect I should go to classes or join the rural but I’m not good at prioritising myself.

You say a lot about your brother’s unpleasant qualities, and lots about the ‘bad’ things you don’t do, like being flakey or dominating conversations or getting too drunk — but what do you think you bring to potential friendships? What kind of people do you want as friends? What attracts you?

It’s just that I think lots of the people on here who make similar posts about not having or keeping friends are focusing on the wrong things — they say ‘But I’m perfectly nice, I’d do anything for anyone!’ For me, I don’t particularly seek out ‘nice’ in friends, I want to be around people I find interesting.

The last new potential friend I made I met after a film showing at a festival last month, and we fell into conversation about the film on the street and ended up talking for half an hour in the pouring rain. That was enough to show me I liked her cast of mind, that she was a good talker, and what I found out about her life (artist, lives alone in the countryside with dogs) was also interesting, as I love art. We exchanged phone numbers and have met twice since.

I wouldn’t characterise my friends in general as ‘nice’, tbh.

Have you never made friends with the men who do your hobby?

I think this is an interesting point. It may be about how you build connection with people.
Going to see a band is nice if you like the band and live music but not a great opportunity for connecting with people. It's loud and busy and hard to have conversations. Also if people cancel it probably has more to do with not wanting to go to see the band or stand in a loud room full of people if they've had an overwhelming day.
Life is busy and even the most sociable people only have so much energy to go out and actually see people.
I find I build better social connection over WhatsApp and meeting up is the cherry on top. I haven't seen one of my best friends in 6 months (we live 2 hours from each other and I do have two small children) but we message each other daily. Sometimes with a moan and rant about life, sometimes with a funny thing off the internet, sometimes with photos of what we're up to. But it's building that connection over time. When we meet up it's lovely but we've done 90% of the hard work beforehand.
Re your brother, male friends are a bit different I think. I don't see a lot of actual connection with my husband and his friends but they talk about sport a lot...!

Do you keep the men at your hobby at arms length deliberately, or are they not interested in friendship with you either?

So if I wasn't really friends with you but you were wanting us to go see a band as a couple up x 3 I'd probably cancel too. I think you are maybe trying to jump the steps. I feel like at least one couple have to be really good friends then invite one other.

When you do have friends, the idea of having to go somewhere all night and engage in small talk and getting to know you stuff is just not an enjoyable prospect. So in that 5.30pm to 6pm... Gawd i can't be bothered with this feeling you cancel.

It's a long long term thing making friends when you get to the 40s/50s I think. You really need to make space in your life for someone new.

Can I ask... Where are you friend's from school/uni/jobs etc.

I wrote a whole massive message but I managed to delete it all 🤦🏻‍♀️

Basically I would suggest getting involved in your local community! I'm very involved in our towns community, and so are our kids (we homeschool) and we have quite a lot of friends. But it's absolutely nothing special about me, I just chat to everyone 😅

I would suggest starting small, going to a community coffee morning and you'll learn about other things going on locally there. Community groups get all sorts of people showing up so you will totally find people to chat with!

Also don't limit yourself, I'm 30 but have friends who range from the ages of 25-75 that I see as least once a week if not more.

Good luck, and I hope you find your people in 2024 ❤️❤️❤️

When you say you have strong boundaries what do you mean by that?
I'm wondering as with my good friends, there are no boundaries, and that's why we are good friends. Can talk about literally anything.
Christmas is a busy time of year so don't worry about being cancelled on.
To build a friendship, start gently. If there's a person you think you'd like to be friends with, drop them a text about something they've mentioned. But don't get all intense and expect a long conversation, just puts you on their radar.
Next time you see them suggest going for a coffee but follow that up with setting a date.
Some of my closest friends I only see every few months but we exchange daft text messages a lot and show interest in each others lives. Eg. Friends kid had end of term show.. I sent a message saying hope show goes well let me know how he does.

Building friends is a gradual thing. Don't worry about it op, you sound lovely.

I used to think this about myself, especially as I have male dominated interests and no interest in celebrities, reality TV etc.

The resolution was three fold;

1. I hadn't found my tribe - books, analysis, current affaira etd.
2. I was diagnosed as bipolar and this has made me reassess whether I really was funny, friendly, how I made an effort etc. actually it's more likely I was manic and people found it all too much.
3. I'm pretty sure I'm ASD. This also has an effect as people inately see through the masking although they may not be able to put their finger on it.

None of this has given me friends per se, but it has helped me understand why I don't make friends easily and how my own behaviour has impacted this.

What do you do to maintain friendships? I’m in 4 WhatsApp group with my 4 small friendship groups and we text in those (not constantly) but through the year. I also see all groups of friends 2-3 times per year despite geographic distance. And when we are arranging times, reply promptly and commit to it (though I can see you said you weren’t flaky). When we meet we will do some level of chat about old times as it’s a bonding thing, but then update to more recent events. We don’t buy gifts for each other - other than the odd big birthday - or anything, we’d rather meet and do things. Im definitely not a people pleaser but am kind and reliable. As we’ve got older, we tell each other we love each other more - these are friendships I have maintained now over decades. They are all female groups as well.

Anyway, these are my insights. My partner has fewer friends and doesn’t do the regular contact or bonding things I find or get behind meet up plans with gusto. So they drift more.

Friendships take time and they involve the sharing of vulnerabilities. There’s also the fact that when people feel they have enough friends, they often aren’t open to more.

So I think…

You have to have some activities that put you in front of new people a lot. If you don’t want to make male friends at your hobby, take up a couple of others. Finding friends takes time, so pick things that you are anyway interested in doing.

Be friendly to everyone (as you are) - when you feel a spark of interest, work on building a connection with that person. Extend invites that are easy to accept eg coffee after the group.. then to gigs etc.

You have to be patient and make it a priority, but if you can sustain a relationship then you have the skills to sustain friendships.

Do you think you might be on the add spectrum?

@Firefly2009 asd sorry

You sound perfect! I have similar problems - quiet, not girly or able to gossip about girly things, a bit of a tomboy, and nobody wants to be my friend. I also see some fairly mean people with lots of friends who include them in activities, and I don’t understand why I’m apparently less desirable than them.

I think it’s because people like other people who they have something in common with, and the most common type is the girly gossipy woman, so they find each other easily. Whereas we (the quiet tomboyish types) struggle to find each other.