Why am I so damn unpopular?

[DeadFlowersInAVase]

Just that really.

I've always had problems with friendships. Not so much making them but keeping them.

I have a partner and 2 adult children but no friends. People just don't like me!

I'm not a people pleaser and I'm not an arsehole either. I'm reliable, not flakey, don't dominate conversations, remember things people have said and ask after them. I'm told I'm funny. I have good boundaries. Just a normal person really!

It really stands out to me because I also have a brother who I'm seeing over Christmas. All of his other days are booked up with seeing friends and doing stuff. And I don't understand it. He's grumpy and irascible (which has caused him to lose friends over the years) but he still has friends from school, university, work etc and has fallen out with a few (due to his behaviour) but they seem to have made up over the years and he still sees them. I don't understand it because he's selfish and self centred, dominates conversations and can be quite unpleasant at times. He's great company when he's not being like this but I don't think there's a single one of his friends who hasn't been on the end of one of his diatribes at some point.

My partner has friends he's known since school.

I know other people who have good strong friendships. People who have dubious political beliefs, who get too drunk and offend others.

People seem to like me well enough - colleagues, people I know socially, people through hobbies. But I don't actually have a single friend!

I mean, it can't just be that I have dead flowers in a vase. Can it..?

*I feel like I have lots of 'people I know' but not any real friends.

No one I could call on in an emergency or to share good news with.*

I know this sounds painful and cringe but I think you need to be open about this with people. I moved to a city where my partner knew lots of people and I didn't know anyone. I went a couple of years trying and failing to make friends until eventually, whenever I met anyone new, I'd say "I'm finding it a bit hard as I'm friends with my partner's friends but I don't have any real friends of my own here". Lots of people will be kind and say "oh let's hang out" and you never hear from them again. But then you meet someone who feels exactly the same way as you and boom. Those are your people!

The "too nice" thing probably warrants a separate thread. I am baffled by it - though some posters seem to understand it straight away.

My first guess is that people who make that comment don't rely on/need to rely on friends for anything and have lots of others to help.

It's quite hard to make friends as an adult

This.

Once you get past early adulthood, people get established in friendship groups, get families, get busy.

It’s hard to find people who have enough space and time and motivation for a new friend, and who like you and who like you. That’s not an easy find.

People sense something isn't right. Eg hypersensitive person who
overthinks due to abuse and is hypervigilant to saying the wrong thing, constantly analysing "am I being funny/interesting/listening enough?" Their anxiety is picked up on. The "too nice" is to mask anxiety but people assume it's masking something worse.

@Undineimmor how does "too nice" present?

not sure if I'm falling down a weird MN rabbithole but why not...

I've just come back to this as I've been out all day.

how does "too nice" present?

I think this is people who are too eager to please, will always jump in to offer assistance or will compliment without sincerity. That sort of thing.

Like when you read a post on MN and someone will say "you sound lovely" or "you sound like a great mum" or whatever when they have absolutely zero information to base it on.

You’re autistic! That’s the answer. You should have mentioned that in your OP.

I always wondered why I couldn’t keep friends, and why no one ever really seemed to warm to me. I asked myself what I did wrong (apart from being socially awkward and shit at small talk - I wasn’t completely self-unaware).

It’s the autism. NT people can just sniff it out. They don’t know it’s autism per se, they just know something is off.

I always think on these type of threads we need to arrange some meet ups.

For me personally, friendships are harder to maintain when your circumstances change and you no longer have as much in common/live further apart.

Over the last 20 years I've had a lot of friendships but they've never lasted, and I think it's because my life has changed so much.

As a teenager I spent all my time either at school or horse riding, so I had loads of friends through that. But then that all changed when I quit horses and went to uni. All of a sudden it was harder to maintain those friendships. I lived further away, it was more effort to keep in touch. We had less in common and there was less to talk about as we no longer had anything to 'share'. Our lives had moved on.

Now I've taken up a new hobby and I'm meeting new people yet again. I sometimes feel like I don't have any really close friends but it's because I'm constantly on the move and my circumstances are constantly changing so my friendships change.

Thankfully my DH and I have alot of shared friends and we have plenty of people we can go for drinks with or enjoy a meal with, so it's enough for me.
I think I just yearn for more friends who share the same hobbies/passions, so that's a new year's resolution!

Instagram and social media are helping massively with that!
You've got to get yourself out there and just chat with people. You don't need to try very hard. It only takes a good conversation with someone and simply ask them if they want a coffee sometime'. A couple of my friendships have come from that.
I think if you go out feeling a bit desperate and trying to make new friends then you're more disappointed when they don't work out.
Just be yourself, do what you love, and friendships will come if they 'fit'.

I relate to this all too well!

Well, if you think all women but you are alike, AND bitchy, gossipy and cliquey, I’m not surprised you struggle to make friends with women. It has nothing to do with you being ‘loud’, into fitness, or wanting to talk about pets or work, it’s because you’ve internalised misogynistic ideas about other women.

I think it could be a combination of things. I am similar sounding to you, and also ND. All my colleagues etc seem to like me but over the years a few have admitted they were intimidated by me when they first met me and mistook me for not liking them, but realised they had got me wrong etc People often say 'Don't worry, I know you don't like hugs!' When I have never said that either and it slightly offends me. But I suppose I don't initiate them. So maybe everyone else is rushing to greet with a hug to make friends 😂.

I have spent a long time trying to figure it out because I have always made an effort to ask people about themselves, empathise with them, relate to them, offer them drinks, share, smile etc but not sure what I am lacking. I suppose I am not generally gushy or exuberant. But I am honest, and easy going. If I have to criticize somebody be it professionally or a friend, I do it with humour and teasing because I think that is kind and doesn't embarrass them or make them defensive. I don't send gushy sentimental messages expressing my feelings of friendship, but I do thank people. I am often sarcastic.

One thing that came up in one of these conversations was that they were initially intimidated by me because I don't really have the local accent, and I think that actually could hold a lot of weight. People make assumptions about people by the way they speak, and a lot of ND people are well spoken regardless of social class which can put some people of as they make assumptions that you will be more educated, or more financially secure and will judge them.

People tend to be less secure about trying to make friends with anyone who they perceive to be more beautiful/cool/educated/talented than them. This is why some not so nice people wind up popular like your brother. They aren't a threat.

I am going to guess that your hobby is being in a band? Because I know those circles, know they are dominated by ND folk like myself and I agree they are male dominated. Even if I am wrong and the hobby isn't music related, your social life revolves around gigs, and in my experience, you are likely to meet a lot of people with ADHD, who will be flaky with arranging meet ups off their own back. I am certainly guilty of that.

So it seems like you could have a combination of lack of social opportunity because of your male dominated hobby and gigging. Most new friends are made through the circumstances of seeing people regularly, not by clicking with someone who is a perfect personality match on a night out, so work is often the best place. If your work isn't giving opportunities, do you have any time you could spare for volunteering?

@DeadFlowersInAVase Interesting comments on "too nice" (I would normally say "thank you" after that 😂)

I am the person who will say, sincerely, "I love your necklace" for example, but perhaps that is looked on with suspicion.

I was the person who always offered to help but I have stopped now.

I'm going to a social thing next week. I'm thinking to do an experiment, judging by this thread and some others.

From a thread running now, I won't be careful what I say in front of kids (I usually am).

I won't make an effort as this apparently risks appearing "too nice" and people thinking I'm covering for anxiety caused by something unspecified but dreadful. It will be interesting to see if I am approached by anyone I don't know.

I won't offer hosts any help.

if anyone asks how I'm coping with recent life changes I'll show my vulnerability and tell the truth - "very badly, I'm constantly crying". I shouldn't appear strong or people will think I don't need friends. (I am quite sure how this will pan out btw).

I'll treat it as an experiment. 😂

My example of 'too nice' people are the ones that send the care emoji on Facebook posts when I am aiming for humour. Don't drag me down with your over the top empathy 😂.

OP do you actually try and connect with people? Do you understand how to do this?
Because making friends goes from surface small talk to connecting and revealing vulnerabilities and listening to others vulnerabilities. If you never do this you can't make friends and will just appear as if you do not want to make friends anyway.

I’m ND and ‘marmite’ but have good solid friendships. I’ve no idea why as I’m naturally all the things disapproved of on this as thread - mostly helpful, nice, gushy, warm. I do however like to have a laugh (at my own expense mainly) and enjoy listening to people. Im proactive socially, I nail dates, times, places in diaries

@EmmaEmerald or you could say ‘you look lovely, this really suits you! How have you been?’

If you ever watched kids movies, you’ll probably know that they’re full of things you shouldn’t say in front of the kids, but they’re still very much there, cleverly disguised and they go right over their heads.

You don’t need to start clearing or dishing up, just clear after yourself.

You’ll find that most people have been through challenging times themselves. If you say:’I’ve actually been struggling with the lack of sleep/going through chemo/divorce, but it’s actually so nice to be here, dress up and have a boogie’, people will listen and offer advice, or tell you about their own experiences. It’s a party. You just met them, there really is no need to give them every detail for the next 20 minutes.

HTH

My husband is constantly making friends as an adult, with men and women, and I think it's because he sends little funny texts about relevant things relating to them much earlier than I would when knowing someone. Also, if he's met someone once he completely assumes they will remember him and want to chat next time. He's not too serious and can chatter away easily - he knows everyone at the school gates, for example. He's also pretty quick to suggest a coffee or drink at the pub and people are normally pretty enthusiastic. In short, he puts himself out there much quicker than I would.

Regarding being too nice, I like people who are slightly cynical and who aren't afraid to have an opinion different to other people's. I'm perfectly happy to chat to 'nice' people at work etc but people like this from, say, NCT, I've not ended up staying in contact with. There's a woman I can think of who is genuinely lovely but frankly quite boring. I know that sounds awful, but she just doesn't have much of an opinion on anything.

@BuddhaAtSea um.... I suspect we're all starting to get each other mixed up on this thread.

but you are well intentioned and hopefully your advice will benefit someone here.

You don't need to try very hard. It only takes a good conversation with someone and simply ask them if they want a coffee sometime'. A couple of my friendships have come from that.

Yes, but,,,,, if you are ND conversation can be v difficult. Somehow I get a brain freeze. I think it's social anxiety then when attention turns to me my brain freezes. Medication helps. It's a very common trait. But not recognised by NT people so you seem stiff and unfriendly. So of course you mask and force yourself to come up with chat which sometimes works a bit.

I've occasionally watched the IT crowd - it's that sort of thing, unable to chat.

No one’s ‘disapproved’ of them. Some people (me included) have just said they’re not top of our list when looking for friends. In fact I think most people are ‘nice’, it’s more that I look for more than that in someone I want to be around.

Very well explained.

I'd say this is exactly my problem too. I'm more educated and sound a bit posh. I think I also intimidate people. I generally don't have this problem with men who hold senior positions who seem to respect me.

Heh heh OP, I was just about to write "you sound lovely" then I saw your last post. =D

But, y'know, you make the effort, you call people for no other reason than you just thought of them. I wish some of my friends did that!

@BuddhaAtSea I think you're right:
'We work too much. Our commutes are too long. Going out is expensive. Kids, families are demanding, because no one else but us picks up the slack.'

Totally. I think that describes lots of us now, in our slightly cagey, post-Covid, WFH, social media-mediated, busy, distant, expensive lives. Even if we don't WFH, lots of others do, so workmates who are also friends have disappeared from the workplace; no more quick coffees/Merlots at lunchtime..

OP, I think my friends would describe me as kinda the opposite to you. You sound pretty together. I'm a bit chaotic, I overshare, I talk to strangers if I think they need it, or need a helping hand - not that I've made any friends that way. I'm not what you're supposed to be to be 'good company'; I forget stuff about others; I moan about stuff a lot - politics, shit bosses, crap services - but I do try and keep it funny.

I totally get not being dominant in conversations - this is deffo required re politeness & equality, and there are way too many people about, correction BLOKES about, who think nothing of interrupting others mid-conversation because they consider themselves far more interesting, it makes my jaw drop. And no-one tells them where to get off! But for close friendships I think a good long, slightly pissed, oversharing rant every now & then, lets people know who you really are, warts and all. 'This is me.'

Having said all of this, I have just two friends who are like the ones you're saying you lack - and because of the stupidly big city we live in, I see them waay less than I'd like. And I've lost several friends who were in that 'closest' category, and I don't know why. I did all the stuff you describe, keeping in touch, invites. I've sometimes wondered, has someone spread an awful story about me? But there's no explanation. Maybe they just went off me. Even my remaining two close friends, I know I could lose quite easily; I know what they're up against. Often, when we do meet, it's hard to find cheerier things to talk about than the life pressures we're both under. Decompressing is good, but it's not exactly fun. But the thought of losing them makes me want to panic, so I strive to keep them laughing, omg I hope the effort isn't too obvious.

I'm always saying to my OH, we need to keep up with friends better. We know couples we've known for decades who live in neighbouring streets ffs, so the cba-to-travel thing doesn't apply. Yet we only see them maybe once or twice a year, it's embarrassing. Despite that, I think Buddha's near the mark. Too much work; too knackered; too many other demands on our time from family; not enough spare money for actual nights out.

Sorry, OP, that's probably not much help. But please don't feel too bad, I think society kinda militates against close friendships at this point in time. Weird, but true.

Some very accurate and insightful responses here. Thank you.

I am reading but haven't had the headspace to process them all and respond yet.

I’ll be your friend op you sound straight talking and not someone who talks rubbish 🤣

As a pp said you are ND and the non ND can pick up on it, don’t understand it and just avoid it

What are your interests though?