Is it stupid to think he could change?

[Weimlove]

I've posted on here previously about whether my relationship was emotionally abusive and resounding response was big fat yes. He's been very critical of me and wearing down my self esteem and temper issues (which led to punching walls). It just became a very negative and toxic environment with us both placing blame on the other.

We have been trying to work on things and he has improved day to day. I have been going to a therapist for a few months to work through my self-esteem issues and trying to work out whether to stay or leave. Initially DP refused to admit that he has contributed to my self esteem issues and just gaslight me during any discussion. Over the last few weeks he's changed his response and is now saying he will go to anger management and accepts responsibility that it's not all my fault - he has contributed to my lack of self esteem. I was ready to leave as I felt he was making superficial changes and blaming me but I feel maybe he's taking responsibility and trying to change.

On the other hand I can't seem to get out of my head the advice I've had (here and IRL) that I shouldn't stay if the relationship has been abusive and that he won't change. I worry if he can really fundamentally change long term. So I don't know, I am just looking for some advice and perhaps from people who have been in this kind of situation who stayed and don't regret it?

@MrsTerryPratchett no you are correct. I need to stop questioning reality and being convinced by him. As I said above it's hard to trust myself and I worry that everything I've told others is somehow twisted (which sounds mad but is what he's told me several times)

You are endlessly confused, @Weimlove , and you worry so much.

Just imagine: with him gone, your mind would be free! Free to focus on things that matter, things that will benefit you and your children.

Everything else asside, you're not happy in the relationship. Even if he could change, why epuld you hang around waiting in a relationship that fucking sucks?

Is it a case of if you feel this relationship ends, that you've failed somehow? Like it means theres something wrong with you? (And that what he's been trying to tell you all along so it would be like admitting you are this useless person he's been telling you you are...) Something like that holding you back?

If so, you need to reframe your internal narrative of why you are leaving him. You are leaving because he does not make you happy. And you have the right to a happy life. You are leaving because it is emotionally healthy to choose yourself (not'selfish') and to protect yourself from people who mean you harm. You are leaving because your life is yours and because you deserve to be surrounded by kind, compassionate people who treat you warmly. You are leaving for the improvement of your mental and physical health. You are leaving because its ok to love yourself and choose you and you do not owe anyone, especially a wanker like him, a relationship.

It's not failure or selfish to walk away and choose you. It doesn't make you bad or unlovable. It makes you a strong, capable, brave person who is kind to herself. Who doesn't take any fucking shit from bullies who want to drag her down.

Because that's all he is - a bully.
He'll always be a failure and a loser because there's no good in him. You however, are a good person. Capable of love. Just stop wasting it on trash people. They don't deserve it.

You're unhappy, isn't that alone not enough reason to kick this abuser to touch?

@Pinkbonbon thank you very much I really appreciate your helpful response. I feel like in future I will read this over and over when I'm doubting myself 💕

Apologies for the late reply. My brother and I grew in a very abusive household. Classic trio of alcohol abuse, domestic violence and mental health problems. My mum did her best under the circumstances. My brother went off the rails age 14, did not stop until late 20-ies. He has been sober for the last 20 years. Never received any counselling, just had the willpower to stop his self-destructive behaviour. I had counselling after a failed relationship. It made me realise I was an abuser myself (which is common for people with my background). Completely turned my situation around. I am a film believer where is will there is a way. Your partner is willing to work on demons. I would give him a chance. Especially since you now your own boundaries in place. I have a feeling your relationship might work

@Tiredbehyondbelief id agree up to a point - but the op doesn’t have to be a rehab centre for a damaged and damaging man, or hang around to see if he improves. IF he goes to therapy and works on himself, great. Then he can start to try and rebuild a relationship with op if SHE wants to. But she shouldn’t continue to live with him while he’s making her miserable, or while he gets therapy. He can sort himself on his own. While OP can get on rebuilding her life!

@Tiredbehyondbelief thanks so much for sharing your story you really did not have to 💐thank you for a different perspective it really makes sense and I glad you turned things around. I also hope you're doing well as it sounds so difficult. I guess I just worry his efforts aren't genuine as they aren't coming from his recognition of a problem if that makes sense, more a reaction to me putting some boundaries in place. But I really appreciate this perspective as helps me to see things clearer.

New year new start.

He won't change. Get rid

In reply to Weimlove. I have done quite a bit of reading on the matter as my mum was clearly a victim of domestic abuse. I have since supported a couple of friends who divorced their husband's because the man was an abuser. I am not victim blaming however I can see a pattern. The man fills in a void because the woman doesn't have firm boundaries in place. Sometimes it's called co-dependancy. The person with low self esteem seeks validation from someone with excess self-esteem. When the abused (it could be a man or a woman) starts putting boundaries in place two things happen. The abuser either leaves or change. In my friends' experiences both husbands denied they had a problem so my friends left and eventually rebuilt their lives to a degree (they both have children so they still need to deal with an abusive ex). In my case, I was the abuser, emotional as women usually are. My husband saw the light when he sought counselling following the redundancy and he realised I was partially responsible for his depression. As you can imagine I was in denial. The environment I grew in (see my earlier post) did not in my eyes qualify my behaviour as abuse. So it took a while for a penny to drop. By a while I am talking a couple of years. That was almost 15 years ago. We are still together and very happy. I received a card "To Ideal Wife and My Soulmate" for my last birthday. I suggest definitely continue with the therapy. But don't discard the possibility that people can genuinely change. It's often a process. Like quitting smoking. Smokers make on average 8 attempts to quit before they are successful (or so I heard). The main issue for me is that your partner is prepared to work on his behaviour. It's going to be a process. I suggest you continue with the therapy. If you continue I think the risk of you coming to further harm either emotional or physical are slim because you will be working on your boundaries (it's also a process). You obviously need to make a decision whether you like your partner enough to be around while he is working on his demons. I hope it helps

Further to my earlier post... I talked about "failed relationship" in my previous post because I see my 24 years old marriage as two distinctive phases.

@Tiredbehyondbelief thanks I agree with you with the lack of boundaries and low self esteem definitely. I guess you're correct I just worry my partner isn't genuinely going to change which is.what I need to figure out I think.

No one can tell the future. I used to worry about the future. I now think it's completely pointless. I think the actions we take today will to a degree affect our future. But no one knows what's round the corner. I think you need to decide if you would be happy with your partner if he DID change. Once you know the answer you can decide what to do. It sounds you still have feelings for him. If my hunch is correct I suggest you continue with your therapy while carefully watching for the signs of progress on his side. Remember to factor in occasional relapses, they are part of changing habits whether dieting or quitting smoking. Look at the trajectory. Your therapist can help you with that. I hope it helps

When the abused (it could be a man or a woman) starts putting boundaries in place two things happen. The abuser either leaves or change.

@Tiredbehyondbelief This wasn't the case in my experience. When I tried to put boundaries in place with my abusive ex, things escalated to threats of violence. I ended up with a knife to my throat. So you're missing out a crucial third option: they ramp up the abuse to scare the abused into omitting their boundaries.

Your advice is perpetuating the very harmful and dangerous misconception that "she just needs to stand up to him!" It's so dangerous because standing up to an abuser can result in the abused being killed.

It is NOT up to the abused to stand up to their abuser, it's up to the abused to not abuse in the first place. It really is not OP's responsibility to "stand by" her partner through this.

You obviously need to make a decision whether you like your partner enough to be around while he is working on his demons.

It really has nothing to do with whether she likes her partner. This feels like quite a guilt trippy way of framing the situation, like saying "if you really loved him you'd stand by him, if you leave you're giving up on him". The more important question is is her partner making her feel happy, loved, safe, and comfortable? If the answer is no then she should leave.

There is no evidence so far that abuse is escalating because OP is putting boundaries in place. OP's physical and emotional safety is on my mind too. Also I didn't suggest that OP should stay to support her partner in HIS process change. What I said she needs to decide whether she would be happy with him if he DID change. This is purely to work if it's worth her time and effort to hang around because all meaningful change always takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. I also said she needs to continue working with the therapist and they have professional obligation to report threats to life to police. So there will be an external checker to keep an on the situation.

... to keep an eye on the situation

I once worked with a young girl whos partner hit her. I begged her to leave but she wouldn't as she fell pregnant.
He was made by the courts to go to anger management classes. The result....she said he learnt new ways to hurt her without it showing!
Eventually, thankfully, she left him but not until he had put her in hospital. They don't change.

@Tiredbehyondbelief @yellowsmileyface I guess everyone has their own experience and not everyone who has been emotionally abusive is the same... I appreciate both sides of view and is all helping me reflect on my situation.

I think personally the more I think about it and read the responses here that my partner is not actually going to really change. I don't think he's fully aware of the way he talks to me and honestly even in this stage of him trying to be better, he's still speaking down to me a lot and causing me to feel like I'm walking on egg shells. He's also not admitted he's actually been abusive, only that he has contributed to the relationship issues. He's called me abusive not long ago and telling me I'm crazy etc. so yeah, the more I think about it the more I think I've got to go. Even if he does change, I'm not sure it would be enough for me to feel fully "in" the relationship anyway.

The OP has posted about this before and ultimately decided to stay and hope he would change. They - meaning she - have been 'working' on improving the relationship. Meaning she has been having therapy and trying to establish 'boundaries'. While he has made a few vague promises about changing his behaviour.

In effect he is holding out a carrot of anger management classes at some point in the future without actually changing his day to day actions. It's just words aimed at confusing her and make her stay.

In 6 months time, possibly sooner, she'll be posting again, nothing will have changed, and so it goes on.

Edited to add: cross post. I see you are solidifying your intention to leave. I hope you find the strength!

@PaminaMozart thank you 😊im inclined to agree as I was ready to leave 6/7 months ago, felt quite good in myself in terms of knowing I deserve better but I let him talk me into staying and I feel worse now and more confused than I did back then. I don't want to keep living in this cycle and I think you're right that I've given it enough of a chance.

I wrote something very similar on here 13 years ago. The knowledgeable ladies advised me, pleaded with me, to leave him. They were horrified at what I'd posted. "He'll destroy you" I remember one of them saying.

A childhood of abuse meant that my self-esteem was practically non-existent. I didn't have the strength, even when he repeated his behaviour.

I posted again and I got the same replies. I couldn't do it. I thought I couldn't possibly manage without him. But I kept coming back and re-reading that advice and promising myself that someday I would be strong enough.

It was taken out of my hands very recently when the police arrested him for a non-related offence. I was so frightened. I was sure I could never cope. It took me days to stop shaking. The police found evidence of his abuse of me and slapped a no-contact order on him. I haven't seen him in weeks.

You know what? I've found that I really can cope without him! Every little achievement shows me that. I shook like a leaf the day I tried to fill up the car with petrol, but I did it. Each day that goes by shows me that, not only am I coping, but I'm so much better off. I never realised I was so reliant on him, or that I was living under such a strain while he was here. The love and support I've had from neighbours and friends has been such a help. I never expected them to believe me.

The patient support of the people on this board is a lifeline. They know how hard it is for us to leave, but they don't give up on us. It must be so frustrating to see women desperate to believe the lies returning again and again to their partners. I wish so much I'd had the strength at the time to follow their advice. They were right. He very nearly destroyed me.

@Rachelsthorns wow thanks so much for sharing. I'm sorry that you've went through this but I'm so glad that you have so much support and are realising that you're so much better off 💐its interesting to hear this as I do really fear looking back in 10 years wishing I had gone but I'm already a year into feeling this way whuch feels long enough mentally. You're definitely right, the advice I have received here is so valuable and the responses on my first post are probably a big reason why I haven't just forgotten about the whole thing and resigned my self to staying. It's so hard to leave but the fact I have even written a post like this (let alone 2) should tell me everything I need to know. I know I'd be ok on my own so I don't know what I'm staying for but perhaps I have to stop analysing every detail of it all and just find the courage to leave. Really hope you are doing well x

I just wanted to ask another question of people who've experienced EA and gaslighting as it has sprung into my mind being the festive season. I feel like I don't really look forward to spending time with people in my life that aren't "our" contacts (best friends, family, close colleagues etc) and I don't know why. Has anyone else felt like that? I love the people around me but over the years I just don't really want to spend time with my family etc which I never used to feel. I'm just trying to unpick whether that could be linked to all of this?

Perhaps because they know what he is like and you know they know? So spending time with them is awkward. Or because he creates drama between you and them. Eg: telling you they don't have your back. Or doing embarrassing things if he is with you when you meet them.

Or because he doesn't get on with them and he makes out you are 'choosing them over me' if you spend time with them. Ultimately it becomes easier to cut them out because it stops him from punishing you. Eg, via silent treatment or pouting.

Abusers want to seperate us from people who are in our corner. Who would have our backs.

Alternatively...perhaps you are recognising traits in them that your nasty partner also has. Often we find ourselves in abusive relationships because we've grown up with abuse. It is normal to us and so we find partners that are similar to our prior abusive relationships.