Is it stupid to think he could change?

[Weimlove]

I've posted on here previously about whether my relationship was emotionally abusive and resounding response was big fat yes. He's been very critical of me and wearing down my self esteem and temper issues (which led to punching walls). It just became a very negative and toxic environment with us both placing blame on the other.

We have been trying to work on things and he has improved day to day. I have been going to a therapist for a few months to work through my self-esteem issues and trying to work out whether to stay or leave. Initially DP refused to admit that he has contributed to my self esteem issues and just gaslight me during any discussion. Over the last few weeks he's changed his response and is now saying he will go to anger management and accepts responsibility that it's not all my fault - he has contributed to my lack of self esteem. I was ready to leave as I felt he was making superficial changes and blaming me but I feel maybe he's taking responsibility and trying to change.

On the other hand I can't seem to get out of my head the advice I've had (here and IRL) that I shouldn't stay if the relationship has been abusive and that he won't change. I worry if he can really fundamentally change long term. So I don't know, I am just looking for some advice and perhaps from people who have been in this kind of situation who stayed and don't regret it?

@Tiredbehyondbelief interesting. Can I ask what makes you feel that way from my post? Because he's finally admitted some responsibility?

Why does he ever deserve any woman let alone you.

@Weimlove - sorry: not RTFT but you might find it helpful to read Women Who Love Too Much and In the Mind of the Intimate Male Abuser - How He Gets Into Her Head.

I'd almost find it easier to leave if he had actually hit me

If it helps to have an objective, external view, hitting a wall is hitting. Throwing things is hitting. I would never, never stay with a man for a minute who showed that level of violence to anything around me. It would feel dangerous and out of control and I would not feel safe. You don't need an excuse to leave - but if you feel you need an excuse, then the things you have described absolutely count. They are all "dumping offences". And you know they are, in your gut.

@BillionaireTea you're right as the wall punching made me feel very intimidated and crossed a line as he also came towards me with fists up afterwards. I did worry that he could be violent towards me after that. And to be honest my house doesn't feel like a safe space because of it all. Need to figure out why I've came to accept these things for myself as I don't think I'd be happy if any of my friends partners did the same for example.

You are allowed to leave a relationship for whatever reason you want to. It doesn't need to be abuse. It doesn't need to be physical violence. It can be because of something as small as he likes to eat cheese and onion crisps. If you want to leave, you are allowed to leave.

IME, even if he were to change, you will always be hyper vigilant waiting on him slipping back into old behaviours. In my own marriage, I basically didn't feel like my ex had my back and I never fully trusted him because of past behaviour. Looking back now, I can see towards the end of the marriage he did try to change. He made more of an effort in some areas. But I was always suspicious of it - I didn't believe he meant any of it because of what went before. So the trust was already broken long before the change and any change on his part was always going to be futile.

Are children involved?

@lilaclustre no children

I was where you are now, about 6 years ago. Desperately trying to hold something together that was utterly toxic and needed to just die but terrified of doing so.

Essentially you're in the 'denial' stage of grief and your relationship is in its death throes. Once you finally accept there's no saving it, you can walk away but it's a process I'm afraid. It's messy and untidy when you've been in an abusive relationship because they fuck with your head so much.

Keep coming back here. Keep reading all the comments. I did, and did the freedom program, and spoke to women's aid and finally unstuck myself.

It can't be saved. You just haven't accepted that yet.

I may be over simplifying this but when I hear someone has promised to change because they realise they are going to be left; it always makes me think…. If they can change now then they could’ve changed before. If they could’ve changed before then they didn’t have to behave the way they did. Basically they are only saying they will change because not doing so will impact them. It has nothing to do with wanting to treat the other person decently

and they will always revert to type

It's best to accept that people don't change, especially abusive men. They will however, get worse. My biggest regret in life was thinking my abuser would change, and not leaving sooner. There were lifelong consequences. Please take care of yourself.

He’s saying the bare minimum to try and make you stay. Why not leave and let him work on himself and change his ways whilst you live separately. If he manages then you can get back together.

I was brought up to believe that if you treat someone as you would want to be treated yourself, they will reciprocate. Also, that with enough love and care, anyone can become a more caring and considerate person. Not so. People like your partner will recognise people who practice the above and suck the life out of them. The more considerate you are, the more gullible they think you. You are wasting your life. Go it alone or find someone else more suited to you.

He contributed to my lack of self esteem

The whole point of Self Esteem is that it is not dependent on what other! people think or do.

Plus I echo all the 'he will not change' and 'you are allowed to leave for whatever reason' advice...

You need to save yourself and start living.

Thanks for all the comments they're really helping.
@CandyLeBonBon I think you're right, just clinging on to false hope as nothings changed over the years so why do I expect that it will now.

@PaminaMozart that's true, I guess that's part of the problem is that his external opinion and actions are impacting how I view myself but I guess that's on me to not rely on his validation.

it just feels very hard to trust myself at the moment

Oh OP, I've been there. This is one of the fundamental reasons it's so hard to leave an abusive relationship. They gaslight you so severely that you can't trust your own perspective on things, and they convince you that leaving would be a mistake. Things just feel very confusing when you're in this type of relationship, and it feels like you shouldn't make any big life-changing decisions, like ending the relationship, whilst you're in this state of confusion. You feel like you need to feel more certain about things before taking that leap. But the fact your relationship is making you feel this way is why you need to leave. Healthy relationships don't leave you feeling so confused and unsure of everything.

The more you get space from the relationship, the more you start to see how things really were and wonder why the hell you didn't leave sooner.

I think I'd almost find it easier to leave if he had actually hit me as I'd objectively know that he'd actually been abusive.

I understand this line of thinking, but there are unfortunately many women out there who are being hit by their partners and are in the same boat you are. Their situation feels different, they feel like maybe they deserve it and they find themselves minimizing the abuse. They're still not totally sure their partner is abusive because he's confusing her and telling her it's all her fault.

You have the outside perspective to know that hitting is NEVER acceptable. Just like we have the outside perspective to know that how your partner is treating you is completely unacceptable. But when you're in it you don't see it that way.

@yellowsmileyface thank you for this. You e explained exactly how I feel with not wanting to make any big life decisions until I'm in a better headspace but I don't think I'll ever get to that headspace while I'm here. I feel so confused and when I decide to leave I regret it and go back but likewise I then regret doing that too. And you're right about being hit as it feels like a solid line but I can see why someone could blame themselves for that and remain stuck. I can say now that I'd leave if he did that but who knows if that actually did happen as I'm sure I'd have said I'd never accept the rest of his behaviour before I was in this situation. Sorry I feel like a crazy person when it's obviously black and white from outside.

Can he change? Yes of course, people change all the time. Most of us aren’t the same person we were 20 years ago. But that is organic change, that happens over time and with life experience. He needs to make fundamental changes to his thinking and behaviour and that is incredibly hard work that takes a concerted effort, everyday, forever. And it starts with admitting that he is abusive and he has abused you. No denial, no justification, just that he chose to abuse you. And it is a choice. Most people cannot admit to that or will not commit to the lifelong work, so they continue to minimise and justify the awful things that they do. It sounds very much like he is still justifying and minimising so I don’t think he will become the better person you deserve. Make 2024 the year you put yourself first.

EVEN IF counselling helped to change him, why would you want to be with someone who needs counselling in order to be a decent human being and treat you with kindness?

But it won't change him. He's only making promises now because at last you were sserious about leaving him. He's just saying what he needs to say to get you back in your box and in your place, and to stop you leaving. He needs to be in control. He needs to be the one to decide when it's over. He doesn't like you having any control over your own life. He's telling you lies to stop you going, and he'll revert to type very soon after.

@Ladymarycrawley1920 thanks. Very hard to get him to admit he's done anything wrong let alone been abusive to me so I think you're correct. The only thing prompting him to go to anger management is an incident not even towards me so he clearly doesn't think his behaviour to me is the real issue.

@perfectcolourfound that's my worry that it's all talk to get me to stay. The thing I don't understand is why he would even WANT me to stay when he constantly says I'm the cause of the problems and that he's not happy either. It doesn't make any sense but I guess that's the point to try and utterly confuse me.

@Weimlove

Yes, he enjoys playing with your head. He enjoys having someone under his control. If you left him, that would be a huge dent to his ego. It would also mean he has to go to the trouble of finding and 'training' someone else to control.

He would much rather you stayed, then he can indulge his hobby of abuse and control. In fact, by staying that would confirm to him that he can always get you back in your box, that you'll always cave in the end, and that will feed his ego and make him worse.

He isn't with you because he's in love, and wants to make you happy, and loves being with you. He isn't capable of a normal, equal, supportive, loving relationship. In order to have control over you, he has to convince himself that he's superior to you, that you're lucky to have him, and that he could do better. So he says those things to you, partly to remind himself that he's superior and in control; partly (mostly) to weaken your self confidence and break you even more.

He hasn't had some miraculous moment of realisation. You know it. He hasn't changed. He's saying the right things for just long enough. If you stay with him, I'll put money on him showing his true colours within days, certainly weeks. Only he'll be worse this time, because by caving and staying with him, he'll have become even more convinced of his control and your weakness.

@perfectcolourfound I know that's you're right. He hasn't treated me like he loves me so his actions don't align with his words. He's been telling me he loves me constantly and trying to be super nice after I said I wanted to leave. I know that he can still tell that I'm not 100% convinced I want to stay and I'm just waiting for him to get angry about that and the jig will be up to be honest. But yes I know he hasn't fundamentall changed, it's all superficial things to keep me there and then the criticism and put downs will start up again. I need to get Christmas out of the way and get my shit together.

I've actually done the research. And even with treatment abusive men stay abusive almost all the time. 90-odd percent.

We moved one in on the 'well someone has to be the 10%' theory. He had gone to every group, wasn't using any more, said every right thing. Took a few months to revert back.

They don't change.

@MrsTerryPratchett speaks for itself and I think I know myself that he will not actually change. I think the only thing holding me back is the doubts of maybe he's not been abusive and I'm twisting things... ie that it's all my fault

Women's Aid, you and MN all agreed.

Personal, professional and group wisdom said he was. Is there another kind of wisdom except his reckons?