Just cannot get my head around my parents.

[Tanaphiru]

I suppose my first instinct here is that I'm asking the internet for permission to go no contact, which is something I know I can only decide for myself, but I just had to write down what my parents are like.

I'm fifty-one. My parents are still together and in their mid-seventies.

I swear - I SWEAR - I am not exaggerating when I say my father has only ever cared about one thing: the television. He has two states: watching television or wishing he wasn't doing whatever he was doing so that he could get back to watching television. Nobody visiting the house expects a word out of him and they just focus on my mother. When we were children (I have a brother) we never knew when his hair-trigger temper (which I no longer tolerate) would erupt and we'd get a smack across the face. But when I look back it was always for a non-sensical reason connected with him being in a situation he couldn't cope with, which was basically anything social. (This also meant it was usually in front of the whole family that we were hit, adding to the humiliation). As an adult I can see he is simply a breathtakingly weak man. He was also happy to hit (with full rage and force) family dogs - I'm talking a Dachsund and a Cocker Spaniel here - and yet he wouldn't DARE behave in such a way towards anyone or anything outside the four walls of our house.

So yes - my mother does all the talking. And yet she too basically has two states: talking to people as if she just caught them at the bottom of slide, or talking to them as if they just fell off the slide and bruised their knee, depending on what the conversation appears to her to require. It's beyond patronising. When she does it to strangers (shop staff etc.) you see them literally back away from her, yet I promise you she goes to bed certain she's an angel of goodness in the world.

She's one of those women who does things for people only for the thanks and the appreciation, and if the thanks doesn't come quickly enough or doesn't communicate enough admiration, someone's going to be getting brutally slagged off.

The talking-but-saying-nothing thing also obviously applies when I've tried to get out of her why she stood by and enabled our 'father' to be such a non-father and completely negative presence.

And yet all the bills were paid, there was always a roof over our heads etc. etc. etc. I've read that they're classed as 'emotionally immature parents'...but my goodness...I literally don't know them. Never miss them when they're not around. I only feel relief.

They seem to value not actually knowing anybody, including their children, in any kind of real way. I think perhaps they've found safety in that. I swear any chatty checkout girl/boy at the supermarket or stranger who asks to briefly share my table in a busy cafe makes for an atmosphere a thousand times more comfortable than they ever have.

If you've read this far, thank you. As I say, I just had to write this down.

Oh god the self deprecating humour thing really resonates. My husband gently takes the mickey out of my mum, as he does with others. She cannot cope.

I love the bottom of the slide saying op, not heard it before. My mum has this superior thing, hers also included thinking she was great at analysing people and she would interrogate them. I used to die of embarrassment.

@TorroFerney Oh jeez, the great-at-analysing-people thing. My sister-in-law (clone of my mother pretty much) is absolutely convinced that people flock to her to confide their psychological issues. What she in fact does is catch people off guard with an intrusive personal question, and then rely on their politeness: most people will cobble together an answer rather than tell her to f**k off.

She's either aware of this and does it anyway, or she's ignorant of her own rudeness. I don't know which is worse.

This. I was talking to my DH the other day about how many women seem to be living with men who are clearly deeply on the spectrum, without anyone in the family realising it. OP, I am not excusing your dad's behaviour in the slightest, but it is worth considering that he might not be able to help some of this behaviour.

They seem to value not actually knowing anybody, including their children, in any kind of real way. I think perhaps they've found safety in that.

My in-law family is like this. None of them seems capable of any kind of self-reflection, or even developing some understanding of what might be driving someone else's behaviour.

To be honest, I think most people are like this. It's quite depressing and makes it extremely difficult to effect any kind of change in toxic dynamics.

My first thought on reading your opening post, OP, was could it be possible that at least one of your parents is not neurotypical? That deep need of your father's for the sanctuary of the TV as a familiar and comfortable place stood out.

Also your mother's way of interacting with people comes across as formulaic rather than natural, something she has picked up and learned from other people but lacking in the understanding as to when it's appropriate. Could she be a lifelong "masker" of her true self?

It's quite plausible that two neuro diverse people would get together. They would each recognise the "differentness" in the other and perhaps feel less alone.

Just a thought.

I think a lot of this is post war generation syndrome.The way your parents were parented by their own will have informed their whole personalities and the huge war losses, i believe, shut down a whole generation emotionally…their kids were therefore subject to emotional austerity and it gets passed on.
I’m not sure of your age, but the societal standards for what passes as decent parenting has changed enormously in the last few decades and emotional presence, rather than just ‘feeding, clothing and making sure they stay out of trouble and safe’ is now recognised as essential. It wasnt then.

Thats not to excuse your parents, but might help you see that it wasn't that you weren't loveable, just that they didn't have the capacity or tools for the feeling or expression of love that we as parents have these days.

@MsRosley I do agree, it's just that, as you say, so many families seem to kind of willfully 'freeze' in that form, the behaviour never gets addressed, and the youngsters stuck in these households end up with decades'-worth of unhappy memories and psychological damage to overcome.

It really wasn't. I hope your parents weren't as bad. As this level of abuse was not normal. My parents are boomers, I had loads of friends and moved around a lot so saw lots of homes, the occasional smack was one thing if provoked but this was something else.

'He threw the TV remote across the room - not intentionally at my mother, but it did hit her - and stormed out the room.'

That's pretty extreme stuff. On one hand, it's tyrannical, bullying and domineering. On the other hand, it's like a toddler throwing their toys across the room because they didn't get their way. The toddler literally doesn't know any other way to manage their feelings. It's a hell of a trip when you realise that your parent hasn't developed past the very young child stage emotionally and isn't capable of anything more sophisticated than this kind of acting out

How did the other people in the room react when this happened, @Tanaphiru ?

I'm getting a lot out of reading your posts by the way, and also the posts from @ChanelNo19EDT . I'm so sorry that you're dealing with all this shit - I can relate to just about all of it. You're both so insightful, and it's very healing to read your thoughts and your analogies

Oh boy that story about the TV remote control being flung across the room, different dramatics, but same rules are carved in stone in my family "no communication about anything meaningful".

Unfortunately in my family, I am now the one who did "crazy" things like shout and.....I threw a cup in to the back garden talking to my brother. It smashed. Doh! I picked it up later!! But the loss of control reflects badly on me. What came before it will never be addressed.

I played the part they wrote for me until I "went crazy" 😃 😢

This is the first Christmas out the Last four that I feel some genuine acceptance for the way things are.

Somebody upthread asked how you ever give up hoping they'll change. I get that, at one point i felt like my inner child would wait forever.

I read a few books about shame. John Bradshaw, and a couple of other authors too. I think that helped me understand the dynamics and my mum's inability to self examine. Also listened to a good book by Beth any Webster called healing the mother wound. That was her story and it wasn't exactly the same as mine of course, but it helped. I listened to that book 3 times in total!

@Lottapianos The reaction from people in the room has always been the same. They look down and the room goes quiet.

(This seems to be at least partly because the nature of the situation is that, regardless of how many years other family members have been spending Christmas etc. around him, they don't actually know him, and he doesn't know them. So any confrontation would literally be the first conversation - let alone serious conversation - they've ever had with him.)

Anything said between my father and mother about it later remains behind closed doors and not mentioned. He then goes even quieter for a week or so, after which everyone's supposed to act as if it never happened.

The first time I actually yelled at him was just a few weeks after this. He'd learned nothing, hadn't reflected, and was working up to doing the exact same thing again.

I yelled 'DON'T START', and as we've seen all over this thread, he then acted the victim. I was the 'nasty' one etc.

It felt good to finally take him on and not be struck by lightning on the spot, BUT, again, there's been no self-reflection, no change, which is what's led me to seriously considering NC.

It's got to the point where it's a simple and unignorable matter of pros vs. cons.

@ChanelNo19EDT I'd highly recommend Alice Miller's books if you've not come across them, especially 'The Body Never Lies.'

@Tanaphiru Well done for pushing back. Your father's reaction was not surprising. In an unhealthy family system, the healthiest member is often the one who is 'acting out' and speaking up. Unfortunately, the reaction is often to scapegoat that person and play the victim - if someone can't shut you up, then they'll decide you're crazy/bad/mean/not worth listening to.

@MsRosley So true what you say about scapegoats. It's always interesting to visit any family for the first time. Coming into that living room, you always see immediately who the whipping boy/girl in the family is, who gets away with murder etc. etc. etc. Very rarely does the whole gang seem content and understanding of each other.

'It felt good to finally take him on and not be struck by lightning on the spot, BUT, again, there's been no self-reflection, no change, which is what's led me to seriously considering NC.'

Well done for having your say and breaking out of your role in 'the script'. But yes, it's so goddamn WEARING to be dealing with someone who will not, or cannot, reflect or develop in any way. God knows you bang your head against the wall enough times, but eventually it sinks in that they will not change, or at least not for the better. It hurts like hell though

What a ludicrous and insulting generalisation- which only serves to diminish the OP's awful experience.

@Lottapianos This is what I mean when I say I can't get my head around them.

To PREFER to spend their precious years on this planet actively defending against breaking out of their comfort zones, even though it's completely joyless and passionless, the decades falling through the hourglass...rather than take a few risks, admit they have some weakness they could work on...

I remember as a little kid one of the first indicators that my instincts were right about how tense and unpleasant the atmosphere of our house was: holidays to mainland Europe. You know, Italian and Spanish families relaxed and enjoying each others' company - most importantly though, being able to argue, as in, filling each others glass of wine even as they vehemently disagreed about something :)

I knew instantly that was way it was supposed to be.

Oh thanks for that recommendation, I thought she was a fiction writer.

I'll look it up now. This time 3 years ago, to stop myself going crazy (well crazier) I would go out for long walks listening to bethany Webster, John Bradshaw and many others, it really helped.

Some of the more typical books about narcissism didn't quiiite fit because my parents were calm and nice and even generous so long as you never, ever challenged theim or their narratives.

I was only allowed to feel grateful, happy or guilty because .... of the gratitude. So anyway a lot of the books with titles including words like "toxic" and "narcissistic" they were detailing more extreme examples, conscious cruelty, so I read a few but felt like i was over reacting afterwards.

Partly because i was already primed by my parents' programming to believe I was never content, too sensitive, overreacting and never grateful.... So after reading these stereotypical books about narc parents, I would feel the way I'd been conditioned to feel. That didn't help!

@ChanelNo19EDT I think you're highlighting a key aspect when you say:

I was only allowed to feel grateful, happy or guilty

It seems like it's a kind of twilight area where the obvious, 'newsworthy' stuff might not be going on - deprivation, extreme violence, sexual abuse etc. - and yet piece by piece the child's individuality, personhood etc. is being invalidated to the point where, as you've said, they're little more than a kind of automaton programmed to not just do what they're told but feel what they're told to feel and not feel what they're told they have no justification for feeling.

To me it also feels important to differentiate between the complexity of how this kind of parent affects you and the simplicity inherent in the fact that they behave this way, mostly, because they're fairly dumb and uninspired people lacking in intelligence.

Oh I love the Spanish and French appreciation for "la sobremesa".
Over Sunday lunch I remember trying to discuss the referendum for gay marriage in Ireland, was it about 2012, my mother declared "let them play house if they wish, but they shouldn't be allowed to believe it's a marriage" and that was the last word on the subject so there was nothing more to say and nobody should try!! in other homes, over different tables it was discussed civilly with different perspectives exchanged.

Same with anything political. No discussion can ever be enjoyed as an intellectual exercise.

Can't pick your family. People are who they are - not what you want them to be. Including you.

Even I have had to learn this the hard way.

@ChanelNo19EDT I love it! There's a word for it! 'La sombremsa'... :)

Oh man...in my house the taboo of disagreeing with either parent about anything went through us like Blackpool rock. So miserable.

'To PREFER to spend their precious years on this planet actively defending against breaking out of their comfort zones, even though it's completely joyless and passionless, the decades falling through the hourglass'

I get you @Tanaphiru - it's so sad, and so miserable, and it seems like half a life. I honestly think my parents wouldn't know HOW to take those risks and move towards change. I think they're too scared, and too paralysed, and it's too late now, so they're stuck with it, and each other. And a good way for them to discharge some of that pain is by blaming and shaming and pointing fingers at scapegoats, because that brings them a bit of (misguided) comfort. It's really sad and really horrible, but I can see a sort of twisted logic to it

@Lottapianos Exactly. In the eighth decade of their lives, I guess entertaining the idea things could have been different is just too scary a can of worms to open, and their children are the only people they can force to play along with their denial.

My brother just left. He asked me what I wanted for Christmas and I felt the rage well up even though we'd just had a nice civilised conversation including people we'd been to school with. I said don't get me anything, just listen to me.

I feel like present exchanging highlights the superficial dynamics in our family.

For years, my parents were giving me wine, biscuits and money while simultaneously refusing point blank to do the one thing I'd begged them to do; listen. They followed up this refusal with ''concern'' for my mental health and spread it around that I needed to ''get help''.

My sanity was questioned for trying to communicate something important.

Neither of my parents is on the autistic spectrum so I had the hope that they'd hear me. Given up now obviously.

I thought they had it in them to understand another perspective but they won't.

They literally besmirched my character to all the neighbours, aunts, uncles and cousins while giving me biscuits and wine and telling me and others that I was insane and to get help.

I'm afraid I have played into the crazy at times. About three years ago my Dad was on my doorstep trying to give me presents when I knew he had backed up my mother when she told various relatives that I was detached from reality. So I threw the biscuits and the money at him. There were 50 euro notes floating around the cul de sac. I know that makes me sound like an ungrateful fing brat but I felt such rage. Do not give me biscuits. LISTEN to me.

Have any of you fallen in to the trap I fell into, being overly reactive when you first tried to be heard? I mean, I get it now I'm never going to be heard but I was so angry when I first tried. So now they are partly correct, I am the crazy one because I did, after fifty years of playing the part they wrote for me, go a bit crazy when I realised that I could not step out of that role even a tiny little bit. It's REFLECT BACK OUR ROSY VIEW OF OURSELVES OR ACCEPT THAT YOU'LL BE PAINTED CRAZY''. (and ps, here are some biscuits because we are so lovely we are still doing the right thing giving you biscuits just like we always did)