Just cannot get my head around my parents.

[Tanaphiru]

I suppose my first instinct here is that I'm asking the internet for permission to go no contact, which is something I know I can only decide for myself, but I just had to write down what my parents are like.

I'm fifty-one. My parents are still together and in their mid-seventies.

I swear - I SWEAR - I am not exaggerating when I say my father has only ever cared about one thing: the television. He has two states: watching television or wishing he wasn't doing whatever he was doing so that he could get back to watching television. Nobody visiting the house expects a word out of him and they just focus on my mother. When we were children (I have a brother) we never knew when his hair-trigger temper (which I no longer tolerate) would erupt and we'd get a smack across the face. But when I look back it was always for a non-sensical reason connected with him being in a situation he couldn't cope with, which was basically anything social. (This also meant it was usually in front of the whole family that we were hit, adding to the humiliation). As an adult I can see he is simply a breathtakingly weak man. He was also happy to hit (with full rage and force) family dogs - I'm talking a Dachsund and a Cocker Spaniel here - and yet he wouldn't DARE behave in such a way towards anyone or anything outside the four walls of our house.

So yes - my mother does all the talking. And yet she too basically has two states: talking to people as if she just caught them at the bottom of slide, or talking to them as if they just fell off the slide and bruised their knee, depending on what the conversation appears to her to require. It's beyond patronising. When she does it to strangers (shop staff etc.) you see them literally back away from her, yet I promise you she goes to bed certain she's an angel of goodness in the world.

She's one of those women who does things for people only for the thanks and the appreciation, and if the thanks doesn't come quickly enough or doesn't communicate enough admiration, someone's going to be getting brutally slagged off.

The talking-but-saying-nothing thing also obviously applies when I've tried to get out of her why she stood by and enabled our 'father' to be such a non-father and completely negative presence.

And yet all the bills were paid, there was always a roof over our heads etc. etc. etc. I've read that they're classed as 'emotionally immature parents'...but my goodness...I literally don't know them. Never miss them when they're not around. I only feel relief.

They seem to value not actually knowing anybody, including their children, in any kind of real way. I think perhaps they've found safety in that. I swear any chatty checkout girl/boy at the supermarket or stranger who asks to briefly share my table in a busy cafe makes for an atmosphere a thousand times more comfortable than they ever have.

If you've read this far, thank you. As I say, I just had to write this down.

@ChanelNo19EDT One thing I've realised as I've got older is that the sky doesn't fall in on you if you do what you want. It's okay, once in a while, to just let people not understand why you're doing what you're doing - let them feel like they're banging their heads against a brick wall for a change.

Do you ever talk to your brother about your upbringing and the situation now? It sounds as though this may help you to offload things.
Is he in contact with them?

Yes, i get regular cold shoulders for beim functional, and i ended the cold shoulder by apologising! The first time I didn't go back to appease her, and i waited, the tension built, it was excruciating, it was unbearable just knowing that she was displeased with me; the VICTIM of me,

3 years have passed and I have gone from feeling such unbearable discomfort at the injustice, it still feels like injustice but it's bearable.

Time helps. But it isn't an overnight process omg no three years down the line from refusing to collapse in to her narrative.

I echo what previous posters have said about your parents being utterly crap.

But shame in every single family member that watched you being hit by your father and did not intervene or even comment. I am so angry on your behalf OP.

@BoredofBlonde I'd say my brother and I aren't close but we're not at odds either.

The best way I can describe it is that he seems to be unaffected by this stuff in that he doesn't rant the way I do :) and yet surely he must be massively affected because, the fact is, he literally never talks to our father beyond hellos and goodbyes, and he has one, weekly, Sunday-night 'duty phone call' with our mother during which small talk is the only subject.

So he's always been as bereft of healthy parenting as me, but...I don't know...I sort of hate to say it, but he doesn't seem to care.

@ChanelNo19EDT Ugh...yes...the apologies. They can real low points.

We're on the same page I think, Chanel, but we'll get there.

@OddKnittedSocks It's actually been quite an experience starting this thread, because you're right - everyone just looked down when it happened. Some people even smirked...

In fact one of the ways I finally started to get some clarity on this was to simply ask myself, as honestly as possible, how I would expect children of mine to feel about me if I behaved the same ways. The answers came back so clear, it was like a weight being lifted off my shoulders.

Wow that sounds like a horrible childhood. I’m glad it’s clear to you now. It’s a horrible feeling when you suddenly start seeing all your parents faults. It hit me quite hard as the narrative I had in my head growing up until the last couple of years was totally different. Now I see everything so clearly it’s painful to know my parents aren’t perfect. They admit they are not and I feel like they are actively working on some things to better themselves. In other areas they can’t (or don’t want to) change. I’m trying to grow and get better for my own children as I don’t want to repeat the same mistakes. Aiming to be even more present and patient. Trying to show that I don’t think I’m always right and to apologise when I’ve messed up. To show my kids it’s possible to make mistakes but learn from them and grow.

You're very eloquent
And you haven't turned out like them.

@Tigertigertigertiger Thank you for that :)

@Tanaphiru sooo much of what you've said echoes my family experience. And lots of pps have said eerily accurate things. It's so hard. I'm nearly 40 and coming to a point of bringing it all to a head- essentially me and siblings want to say we don't condone their toxic relationship. It's all too complex to write here! But I'm sick of the stress and anxiety of the ups and downs, the scenario of airing some disagreement and still being 'in trouble ' for it, like a child, yet on other hand expected to be an adults and do my duty by them. I used to find it so unbelievably painful, but I'm gradually getting to the point of realising the objectively good things they have done, don't undo or justify all the shit. I do deserve better. And won't subject my dc to it

@Vinoveritass This will sound daft but, I have a brilliant David Attenborough documentary on DVD about a mother tiger and her four cubs. The father patrols the perimeter of their territory, never sees his family, but creates a safe space for them by warding off challengers. The mother teaches the cubs to hunt, and physically protects them until they're ready to be independent.

And that's it.

It strikes me that what really, utterly sucks about being a human being is that when we're 'cubs', our brains sponge up our parents' petty, neurotic, damaged perspectives assuming they're as fundamental and survival-related as hunting for food...it all goes that deep into the body...and it just takes so much effort to overcome the programming.

I’m sorry you’ve had this experience too.

I’ve likened it to being gaslit (lighted?) by your own family. I mean it is that really isn’t it? And as a child it’s impossible to not feel enraged by it but you have no way of knowing what’s happening. I ended up very angry and explosive because of it. It always felt so unjust. Still does.

I relate to the dinner table experience - ours is the car. And like you say, seemed to be free rein to just say anything hurtful and then it’s expected that it’s just dropped.

my parents also can’t say sorry so after half an hour or so they just expect it to be forgotten. And if you bring it up or request an apology they just tell you you’re causing problems.

occasionally I might get a fake apology which blames me such as “I’m sorry you didn’t like what I said” or “I’m sorry if you felt i shouldn’t have said that but you need to let it go”

family is so tough. Anyway, sending good vibes your way

@Devonshiregal Absolutely it's gaslighting. It seems to me when anyone with an unearned advantage over someone else misuses that advantage, they almost always make sure they invalidate any criticism of it at the same time. You see it everywhere - work, family, relationships... It's a kind of two-pronged attack, with no goal other than briefly soothing the gaslighter's insecurites.

The never-apologising, too. Nothing to undermine perceived authority. This is why there's never any self-deprecating humour in these families - they class that as surrendering their superiority. It's all just a tense, uptight nightmare!

Good vibes back to you too. Thank you for talking to me.

I can relate so much to this. I'm 58 and my parents are 85. I went no contact 2 years ago. I had the most awful childhood and teenage years. This was carried on throughout my life as an adult.
I would never tell anyone to go no contact but fir me its been the best thing. I wish I had done it years ago but maybe I just wasn't ready. I'm glad they are alive to witness their daughter abandoning them in their remaining few years.

Yes!!
Going round in circles, thinking the person is nice to me sometimes then nasty /says unkind things /interrupts me /dismisses my opinions out of nowhere 😵‍💫
I don't miss having to explain my self or justify myself.

I call this the ‘bless her’ mentality. My late grandmother was a narcissistic sociopath, utterly horrible woman. I used to get very cross with her Social Worker when she was in her nursing home, always ‘bless her’
‘she’s had a good week, bless her’
Fuck off 🙄

Yes the programming. I've been thinking so much about this recently. How as humans, we have all been programmed in our childhoods. Unfortunately, some of us had shit programmers who have essentially uploaded dodgy software.

It takes a lot of work to realise 'wait a minute, this isn't right'.

So true about the programing. I have been programmed to expect the rug to be pulled out from under me at any moment. It's been hard for my DH, his refrain is- I'm not your dad. My dad somehow still makes me feel like an hysterical girl. It's awful. When I think to how he behaved when I was growing up, silent treatment was common occurrence and lasted sometimes weeks. I've been told I'm a disgrace many times, just for being honest in having some disquiet over what he's doing. My mother has been manipulated and gaslit for years too but is so old now I doubt she'll ever leave. An unhappy life has made her selfish towards her children so it's difficult to keep offering support. She wasn't there for me at my hardest times. I want to walk away but feel such guilt for her. It's a nightmare really. Thanks for this thread @Tanaphiru I've used it as a place to offload to people who clearly do get it

@Vinoveritass I think one of the trickiest aspects of this is that it's usually/mostly a psychological form of abuse, and not a case of calling the police, cataloging the crimes, having everybody understand instantly what's been done, and then getting on with the process of overcoming it.

@ChanelNo19EDT gets it so right when she says In their world, they made the family. They own the rights. You are the part they wrote. If you can play that part, unrewarding though it is, you can be in the "family".

As I wrote elsewhere, unfortunately my brother has married someone exactly the same as my mother, and it's awful to witness - as an adult with fresh eyes - just how much the pair of them seem to enjoy the authority they have over my niece; authority to contradict, invalidate, withold permission etc. etc. etc.

Christmas is coming up, and I'll guarantee that, among many other things, this will happen:

My niece will be peacefully watching television or whatever, and my sister-in-law and brother will get bored and decide to 'playfully' disturb her and tease her, and they will keep doing it until they get a reaction. When she finally snaps at them, she'll get told off for losing her temper. It's madness.

We really are dealing with the fact that unintelligent, unempathetic people had unearned advantages over us from the moment we were born, but our young brains trusted that they must be in the right... It sucks.

I wonder if your mum behaves the way she does due to walking on egg shells. From living with your dad for years. Have you ever tried speaking to her about it? Your dad sounds obsessive possibly neurodiverse? But obviously unable to control his temper. I would step back from him particularly.

I read a book Aristotle's Way by Edith Hall. Apparently Aristotle identified 49 as the age people start to see things clearly. Lose their childhood programming or however we phrase it.

I was predictable. Things had been brewing for a couple of years. At nearly 49, in the run up to their 50th wedding anniversary lunch, I asked my mother not to do something.

I had had a feeling she'd ignore me, so the following week I asked her again, with "witnesses" (brother and father). She just dismissed me with an oh pity about you face and the conversation was over.
I knew that she was irritated that id made a request, but I didn't think she would completelyiit.

Well, I showed up for their 50th anniversary lunch and she had put me beside two women that i had asked her not to place me next to. Twice. I wish id gone home. That was the moment I knew it's not me, it's her

Scales fell from my eyes. It may not sound like a big deal but I was v hurt.

Surprising how long it takes to figure out Who they really are.

From then on, I saw things through a clearer lens. The family programming in our home was also "mum is never wrong". My dad isn't cruel but omg he is weak.

He always always backed her up, so she had strength. It was always 2 against 1 if you tried to raise an issue.

And in fact, 3 against 1. I'm not close to my brother but like you say @Tanaphiru I'm not at odds with him either, but it has shocked me and saddened me over the last few years, he hasn't stood up for me.

When i kep trying to be heard and they kept refusing, he bought into their victim narrative and he told me that i was cutting off my nose to spite my face.

He saw value in the charade that was our "family". His energies have gone in to silencing me.

I think he realised too late that he chose the 3 against 1 strategy of dismissing me, shaming me, blaming me, excluding me.... he is capable of conversation himself though!! but yet, under my parents' roof he wants the status quo maintained.

I guess though, he go to 49, the 50 and he caught up. Maybe he questions a few things more than he did. He is far too enmeshed with our parents.

Too late, he may have realised that a better approach to fix our family might have been to stand up for me, and insist they listen.

But even as I type that, I can imagine the victimhood that she would have weaponised if her children united to insist that she "listen". it would have been her only tool.

In a situation where mum hurt me and was left with no choice but to hear it, the person she would have empathy for in that situation would be herself So no matter what way it was approached, it was never going to result in an emotionally healthy family!

This will be my fourth Christmas of low contact/refusing to pretend everything is OK. That is all I can do. I can't make them listen. She can't make me pretend everything is OK. Impasse.

It hurts less with every passing year. That is the good news.

I feel like I've greived for them already.

It's funny, if I could go back in time, would I even try to be heard???? No.

I tried so hard for 3 years before i properly gave up. I couldn't match their determination not to hear. I suppose if I could go back in time, I might go low contact and grey rock them. But, here's the rub, or here's the kicker, that is all they ever wanted!! Talking about the weather and the garden and the neighbours! That is exactly what my mum wants. I feel like she grey rocked me my whole life. But yet still wants the respect, loyalty and love that comes from reciprocal honest communication....
It's too late with my dad. He has empathy, but chose to back her up for an easy life. That's as bad or worse.

@Starryskies1 I've brought up the fact that it seems obvious he could be on the spectrum, and she'll acknowledge it, but she'll then quickly get off the subject, as if she's used to the way things are and that's more important than anything else.

I've stopped addressing it with her though, because what's always also implied in her responses is the idea that she's completely blameless re. his impact on me and my brother, when in fact she should have been protecting us from him and not allowing him to create the atmosphere of fear that he did.

It pisses me off that helping her maintain that delusion is a condition of talking about it, so I'm done with that.

Yes, after a good night's sleep, I'm back again, still nodding still agreeing!!

Maintaining the delusion is it indeed. But my mother has accused me of being "detached from reality" and also "insane".
So their delusions are reality and your reality is the offensive delusion!

All I did to earn the label "detached from reality" was to keep trying to have a conversation when my mother was refusing to engage.

I must demonstrate sanity by accepting the cold shoulder for a bit before apologising for upsetting her!

I think now, 3 and a half years after I first tried to communicate something important to her, it is the knowledge that has mischaracterised me to the wider family that is the hardest to let go of.

Like you said already @Tanaphiru I am learning that the sky doesn't fall down if all the aunts, uncles and cousins believe I'm ungrateful, insane, "crazy"
It has been growth to just sit with that injustice and eventually not care.

There is some dysfunction in the wider family too although not as bad. Our family is the worst. We win!

@ChanelNo19EDT I've been saying there wasn't one particular moment when I suddenly saw them for what they are like yours with the seat placing, but:

I've mentioned my father's obsession with the television. One of the ways it manifests (and one of the few occasions when he actaully talks) is, like clockwork, the same exact time every evening, he'll ask whoever's in the room what they want to watch, kind of like he's comfortable in the role of 'TV DJ' and feels like that's a version of conversation he can handle.

About a year ago everyone else in the room was talking about other stuff etc., and he was on his third try at getting someone to tell him what channel they wanted the damn TV on (that's another thing he can't do - he doesn't know how to smoothly join a conversation that's ongoing or excuse himself to ask a question of two people who are already talking to each other...he then tantrums because he's being ignored).

Then it starts: the room chills and it's obvious he's seething. For once, I got irritated with it and snapped that it didn't matter, nobody was paying attention to the TV etc.

He threw the TV remote across the room - not intentionally at my mother, but it did hit her - and stormed out the room.

That's fascinating about Aristotle...though it bugs me that half a century is a loooong time to wait to see what's going on with this stuff!