September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@HoraceGoesBonkers I found the more reasonable I was the more batshit and demanding my mother became. I hear you about funerals mine is the same, big theatrical performance while making it all about her, just awful. After years of low contact I finally went NC in January, I had tried everything else, tbh I should have done it 40 years ago. I feel like a massive burden has been lifted, I no longer have to pretend to like her. There comes a point when you just can't do it anymore, these mothers do not do reasonable, their sole focus is themselves and their demands, wants and needs.

@HoraceGoesBonkers it sounds like you’ve been through a lot. Even with LC family - bereavement and illness is a lot to process.

Stick with the therapy and take care of your wellbeing. I found going for long fast walks helped when I was going through my fathers death while dealing with toxic family members. Similarly I ended up gaining weight and was in a bad place mentally. I couldn’t do much until I addresses my health first and it was easier to start with physical health. Exercises is quite a good short cut to feeling better which can then lead to addressing MH and relationships next.

It’s that time of year again when Christmas planning for me throws up the all discomfort and pain of being NC with extended family even if it’s what you have chosen.

Deeply regret that I am in this situation at this stage of my life. Maybe it’s FOG - maybe it’s time to reach out again and try to renegotiate a truce.

Is there anyone here who has reconciled ‘successfully’ - for me this would just be breaking the ice - for civility and new distant but respectful boundaries. I don’t want to be sucked back in to enmeshed and entangled family dynamics but I do want so peace. This is heavy on the heart.

Hi gloriously

This is indeed FOG. Do not bother with reaching out to these people. They are toxic and in addition not to be at all trusted. If they were at all worthy they would reach out to you but they are not. Toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Make your own traditions at Christmas (I’ve previously been abroad for the festive season and can recommend if finances allow) and you will thank you own self for not getting involved with your family of origin again. Family at Christmas is certainly not how it’s portrayed in the Christmas ads.

Also such people do not like others setting boundaries so will actively rail against them.

Didn't mean to leave just a flower.

My sister is visiting. I live with (and sort of care for) my mum. This visit has been hideous. My sister gets frustrated with mum's hearing/tidiness/comprehension etc after 10 minutes. This and so much more is my life. I enable my sister to do nothing but phone calls. I asked for acknowledgment of that.

Ended in a massive row. Sister told me I was "ill". Mum told me I was "mad". Yes. I pretty much am now.

When I started to describe what I have to deal with from mum, and previously when I cared for my dad, my sister had a panic attack.

My very elderly mum kept getting right in my face, with her hands in fists at one point. Even my sister explained that she needs to move away from me and give me space.

The worst thing was that our new rescue cat was so scared. I had forgotten he was there. Awful. Thankfully he seemed to move on very quickly and came to me for cuddles.

My sister is a money-grabbing bitch, but oh my, the golden child.

I would drop them all like a hot brick now seeing as you are their scapegoat. Your caring efforts are not being at all appreciated by either your mother. Arrange for social services to do a needs assessment of your mothers care needs making it clear that you are not longer able to do this for her.

I have already referred to social services.
I however have no where else to go.

I have a big work presentation this week that could open up opportunities for me that I want to pursue. Every time I have got to this point in my career in the past I have self sabotaged it by not preparing enough or getting myself into a nervous state. I have finally figured out that I am doing this myself, rather than thinking the world must be against me.

I am ready to take responsibility, prepare and get on with my career. But, the negative back chatter is strong. Being told and treated like you are not good enough all your childhood and adult life by your biological family is a hard thing to shake off!

I also want this opportunity very badly… I think there’s something about validation and a kind of stubborn determination to prove everyone wrong. Not that I would ever share anything about this with them so maybe it’s more to prove it to myself!

I think I probably sound a bit petty but just needed to air this.

@BluebellsForest I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. It's incredible, isn't it, how the frail abusers are able to summon the strength to get physical with you. I see exactly the same with the vile 86 year old mother in law.

On that note, we have now entered the period of the Hag’s Operation Christmas campaign.

Mr Monkey has had the first of enquiries into what we’re doing. Going to my mum’s without you, then grudgingly hosting you here on New Year’s Day for two hours.

Apparently, she ‘dreads’ Christmas and ‘isn't looking forward to it’. The full hints will start soon of her desire to squat at my mum’s for a week. Not happening. Mr Monkey isn't telling her of our plans until early December so she only has three weeks to ramp up the drama which considering he’s now low contact won't have much impact.

She's planing her ‘Christmas haircut’ next Saturday, she IS really labouring under the illusion that she's coming to Mummy Monkey’s. Poor Mr Monkey is earmarked to take her as his Slave brother is too stressed by the idea of taking her to a different hairdresser. Her relentless bullying has made him into a ball of anxiety.

More assertiveness by MM - the counselling has been fantastic - as he's realised he's planned to go out with his mates that day so he'll be stating that it's not convenient for him. She will kick off as she can't countenance someone else’s needs are important.

He has less and less contact with The Hag limited to a weekly call when he chooses to ring her. She doesn't ring here now. It's such a joy to have her pretty much out of my eyesight. Xmas only and praying it will be her last one.

The hairdressers are my hairdressers and the lovely woman who does my hair has seen the hag screaming at Slave Son in the supermarket many times.

New to the Stately Homes thread, but have read periodically. In my case it was mostly vineyards and distilleries that I remember being dragged round as a child rather than stately homes but I think I qualify. One parent was from wealthy background (think chauffeur & maid), other less so, but both attended private/grammar schools and had professional/medical jobs.
We moved when I was mid-primary to a grammar school area but also at the time one of the poorest in the UK. At end of primary, I sat and passed the 11+ and asked to go the same school as my friends. My parents sent me to the non-grammar secondary-modern-in-all-but-name. I did get to see all my friends go to grammar, though, so that was good. Near end of secondary, my teachers discussed with my parents that I was exceptionally able and should be applying to oxbridge. My parents persuaded my teachers not to discuss it with me and to tell me to apply to the local red-brick university. I found this out well into my 20's. As a result I attended 3rd rate schools (where corporal punishment was alive and well), and a 2nd rate university. It has counted against me my whole career. School was absolute hell for me - I told them so and they did nothing (because to take corrective action would be to admit a mistake had been made, and as far as they were concerned, they didn't make mistakes). As a bonus I was sent to religious schools, and forced by parents and school to continue to practice that religion long after becoming an atheist. They also did absolutely nothing about bullying by my older sibling throughout childhood/adolescence. Oh - BUT: when my parents' privately educated middle class friends visited, I was allowed to sit at the same table to have dinner (not sent off to a kiddies table), and apparently (i.e. according to dear mama) being allowed to hear the conversation of these exceptional people was a privilege and an education in itself.
I spent my entire childhood and adolescence believing it was normal to be miserable and live anticipating the next blow. I learned to be suspicious of people and, with hindsight, by the time I reached mid-secondary and for the remainder of my time in school I had low-level depression. Leaving school and home was like leaving prison. Again with hindsight, it wasn't until I was in 3rd year that I had something resembling normal self esteem and mental health. I didn't look back much on it in my 20's (who would want to?). I only really processed it after I had my first child. I have gone very low contact (and of course, I'm the odd one for doing so).
In retrospect, my childhood was like having someone's foot on your head pressing it under the water, occasionally allowing you up for a breath of air. What kind of parent goes out of their way to ensure their children receive a worse education than the one they got themselves?

I saw Adult Social Care last week, they are coming to see my mum tomorrow. My sister is now staying so that she can be there. Obviously to paint the worst possible picture of me. I don't care but FFS. She has never stayed past a minimal weekend before, even when dad was ill etc.

I mentioned to mum that she's on the wrong attendee allowance level, and that might come up. My sister said, "Is that a threat? I'm recording you."

@BluebellsForest believe me, social workers/social care have seen it all before and are very astute. Your sister sounds so toxic. Hope it goes well. X

@forthwrong that's awful. Sadly, toxic parents don't want the best for their kids. I, like you, don't get it. This is exactly what happened to Mr Monkey. No encouragement, no praise, just put down after put down. And good on you for spotting and processing the toxicity (painful though that it is) and I imagine being a brilliant parent. X

"I mentioned to mum that she's on the wrong attendee allowance level, and that might come up. My sister said, "Is that a threat? I'm recording you".

Your sister is barking mad. How can such be taken as a threat when it clearly is not. Your sister's recordings of you would in all likelihood be not given any credence by anyone in authority.

@MonkeyfromManchester I am really impressed with how you have been able to step back and not let your MIL get under your skin over the years I have followed your progress on these threads. I have seen you detach and put in calm assertive boundaries but more importantly support your DH to unpack is his own experiences, resolve and grow from them. Well done.

I just went to get a glass of water and said something to mum about is she really ok with my sister being like this?

Mum said, "I think it's time we got rid of you." Utterly seriously and with venom.

@Gloriously thank you so much. I can't believe how far I've come. She's mostly out of my head, apart from when Mr Monkey remembers something or she's been vile. Mr Monkey has come so far in his journey away from his abjectly vile childhood. He now names it as abuse, he knows he has Complex PTSD, and now holds all of his family accountable. his lovely dad died when he was eight and things were really grim after that. He's been transformed by counselling.

@BluebellsForest christ, that's awful. Your mother produced a pretty grim person in your sister. Apple tree etc. Hugs to you. Can you hide in your room so they don't feed on you? I know that's not great of having to hide, but you take yourself out of the poison. X

@BluebellsForest - the only way to begin to fix this (for you) is to move out. You are living in a toxic and abusive environment. You might start by contacting charities like Shelter, as you can declare yourself homeless if you are leaving a domestic abuse situation and the house/rental lease is not yours.

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/homelessness/help_if_youre_homeless_domestic_abuse

@forthwrong that's awful but it resonates. I was sent to the local church comp because that was where the priest's children went. Up until my going no contact a couple of years ago, any achievement was responded to with scathing putdowns. The last job I got, my father said why on earth would they want to employ you? They don't have any idea that I have a doctorate, let alone that I got a full scholarship for it. It's their loss.

Oh ive been there @forthwrong . My mother always tries to slate my ability, that's because she's jealous. I do same professional job as my niece (though ive 20 years more experience) and my niece is apparently more qualified (she isn't, ive got a masters lol). Love my niece, not her fault and shes clever woman My mother tries to devalue me. Amongst other things, when i had skin cancer and told her, she interrupted and talked about her hip...my sister 2 month later said id had op to remove and mother said 'she didn't tell me' lol 😑😁... Weirdly when my ex had skin cancer she rung everyday to see how he was.
Shes just horrible to me and it's all down to jealousy. I am now NC.

@Loubelle70 @Parentalalienation and @MonkeyfromManchester Thank you all for your kind words.
My further dilemma - after first DC was born I processed a lot of what had happened and realised that my parents were toxic people, to be avoided. I wanted to go NC but was persuaded by DP to go low/minimal contact because the DC's "needed to know where they came from". But DP does not respect my wish for no/minimal contact and regularly invites further contact with my side of the family, which I do not want. My toxic parents use DP as a "back door" to inveigle their way into our lives. This has caused a lot of friction. I frankly feel that a happy nuclear family would be enough but DP is sacrificing my happiness for some peripheral relationship between the DC's and their grandparents.
The irony is that DP has a toxic mother and extended family themselves, which they keep at firm distance, and so should know better. My view is that I don't interfere, or invite contact, with their side of the family, so why do they do it with mine.

Forthwrong my mother did the same sabotaged my education ( at 11, 16 and 18) I realised at 16 my father jyst stood by and let her do it because keeping his wife happy was more important than his children. I now have a Masters and a good job both of which have been totally ignored by them , I have been totally ignored since I was around 7

Very interesting agony column from Philippa Perry in yesterday's Grauniad, explaining that going LC/NC is a choice between resentment or guilt, and that guilt is the lesser of the two evils and how you can learn to live with it.

Many of the below-the-line comments echo the Stately Homes club.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/oct/22/ask-philippa-perry-my-mums-depression-drags-me-down-i-feel-i-need-to-stay-away#comments