September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

reading my own post back I think it could be an idea to travel somewhere with my mum to replace one of these visits. Being on neutral ground - a new city or town could help us have a more positive experience together.

@tonewbeginnings yes that sounds like an important compromise.

It must be hugely triggering for you to be in that house.

I would also have an overt boundary with her that you don’t want to discuss the issue of your siblings with her ever again and that you don’t want to here about them - and that if she is unable to respect that you will get up and leave without further discussion.

Its really important that you continue to prioritise your MH and emotional restoration. That is why you cannot be in a triggering physical environment or involved in emotionally difficult dialogue with your DM.

If you put those two changes into action you might develop a better relationship with your DM - or at least a more tolerable one as you can engage in light conversation about the present environment rather than churning through irresolvable past issues.

I also think you need to consider how your own DM has let you down by not just allowing / enabling these older adults and their spouses to bully you - but to continue to expect you to accept and tolerate it. Both of these are self serving - she doesn’t seemingly like conflict but is comfortable continually throwing you under the bus regardless.

You might need to compartmentalise your true feelings about your mother as they come up by working with a therapist if you want to hang on to some sort of relationship with her. She let you down and she continues to do so. She won’t see it this way - so don’t waste you breath and energy getting angry with her because she won’t change - however you can reclaim some control by having clear boundaries and no go areas physically and emotionally with her.

@Gloriously thanks… what you’re saying makes a lot of sense.

I do need to tell her that I don’t want to discuss other family members during our time together.

I also want to get a therapist but am cash strapped atm. I had one for about 4 years which helped me resolve a lot feelings of guilt and anger. It also helped me go NC with toxic family. And address my incredibly low self esteem as a result of the trauma and bullying. This is high up on my list once my finances are in order.

I have been getting angry at my mum and I do feel let down by her. You’re right she doesn’t see it this way so I have been wasting my energy. It feels like a balancing act with being there for her as she ages and not become depressed myself in the process.

It was actually when I started spending less time with my entire biological family that I realised I was in a bad place in the past. A lot of healing happened with the distance and the pandemic helped me have more insight into the toxic behaviour of one of my siblings. He started to bully me via messages as he couldn’t do it face to face. Seeing his messages written down in black and white made his behaviour towards me so clear! I think I have developed / been trained to minimise toxic behaviour towards me. So I walked around thinking I was overly sensitive.

My mother had a very difficult childhood and upbringing herself. She did break some cycles and it’s my turn to break more - I appreciate the reply 🙏

Does anyone know if group therapy exists for these types of family issues? It could be remotely online.

@tonewbeginnings - these are all stages you are moving through. It seems that stepping back has given you perspective to see what’s objectively happening. As time goes on you may choose to adapt your relationship with your mother again to not just preserve your MH but to optimise your well-being and enjoy being the best mother you can.

She was a mature adult with a lifetime of experience when she had you - ignorance is not cutting it with me.

This is a great book. Also on YouTube Crappy Childhood Fairy and Patrick Teirnan are well worth rummaging through.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703

Definitely a good idea. Means you and your mum have something to look forward to and the conversations will also be different. How do you feel if she comes to your home otherwise or is that also triggering?

You and I have chatted before as your situation has things in common with mine.

My siblings are all NC with me currently and due to my mothers closeness to some of them and denials that they exclude me etc even phone calls with mum can be very triggering. I ask her not to mention them etc but she still does. Sadly I have no plans made to even visit my mum the rest of this year or next spring as she lives close to some of them and when we visited last it was a nightmare and I had panic attacks and other MH problems. Feel so guilty I can’t see my mum though.

For example this week I’ve got the flu, my mum knows as I speak to her twice a week usually so left her a message to say I’m in bed sick. No one else ever speaks to me so no one else outside of our household knows this. But as she won’t stop discussing me with some of the siblings one of them messaged me get well soon this week!!!! WTF….and yes btw I know that in normal circumstances that sounds nice and loving and kind but I don’t want that stuff in my life from siblings that don’t talk to me or include me. So I had to send a police message back and got in a real state about all of that and now whilst in bed really sick my anxiety has escalated loads as means my siblings and mother have been talking about me behind my back again 😰 The ‘blessing’ to them all being NC with me is supposed to be that I’m left alone and they don’t know a thing about me so feel very hurt that once again my mum can’t keep things private.

So bizarre, what sort of illness were you supposed to have?

@tonewbeginnings unusual question I know but is your mother an only child?

My mother is and the reasons she won’t believe me about my siblings or drop the subjects of my siblings, well one of the reasons, is that she will continuously say because there’s a few of us we are supposed to be there for each other and always have each other and not be alone like she is.

I end up hearing all of that after stating that they won’t talk to me and that I have explained time and time again that I don’t want to know details about them unless they choose to have a decent relationship with me and be part of my life (that’s not even an option now as I prefer NC) and then get off the phone and cry for a few days.

I’m the eldest and was brought up looking after the younger ones so I feel utterly betrayed and hurt that they would all choose to do this to me all these years later. Especially from one sibling who was always really close to me.

@Tbry sorry to hear about your similarly challenging relationship with your mum and siblings.

My mum doesn’t visit me much and I would prefer it if she did. She has never visited much and my kids are the only grandchildren whose birthdays she hasn’t ever visited for. I even offered to collect her and drop her off as she says she’s too old to travel on her own. In the 15 years I’ve lived in a different city from her she has visited 4 times. She is attracted to drama and my other siblings love drama too so I think we’re a bit boring for her.

My mother comes from a large family of seven children. It sounds like there was a lot of drama and fighting. I don’t know them much because both my parents immigrated to the UK in their early 20s.

As@Gloriously has noticed and mentioned, my relationship with my mum has changed and perhaps needs to adapt even more. @Tbry perhaps it’s the same for you. A couple of months ago I reduced my calls to my mum to twice a week rather than daily. I send her a pic of the kids most days. She can be quite dramatic if she doesn’t hear from me - she’ll say “I spent the last few days worrying about what’s happened to you”. I tell her that she should call me if she is that worried to which she will say “that’s true” but never does. So sending the pic is a way around this strange exchange we have.

@Tbry MH comes first. I have been there with the panic attacks. I used to get them when I got the train to visit my mum. It was before I had addressed my childhood trauma and one of the reasons I started therapy. I had normalised everything that happened to such an extent that I was genuinely confused by what was causing the panic attacks. Even the fact that they happened more on the train journey and in my home city was not a clue to the cause for me back then!

What’s interesting is that our sibling situation is reversed - I am the youngest by far and I am expected to be indebted to all the childcare that my siblings begrudgingly had to do. There was so much bullying going on and I noticed a couple of incidents where my siblings and their children were trying to bully or make fun of my children now. This is what finally made me go NC with them.

I’ve said this before on here before; I find it easier to advocate doing the right thing for my children than for myself. So, I am trying to now think of myself as my own caring parent to me, if that makes sense. It’s helped me make some decisions on who to reduce or stop contact with.

it is really tough letting go of toxic family and can feel incredibly isolating. I can see the excuses I make for my mothers behaviour and work hard to make my relationship work with her. The truth is it doesn’t work despite this and maybe it’s about slowly making peace with that. 🤗

@Gloriously thx for the book recommendation. I will check it out. I also found out about Dr Ramani’s YouTube videos on here which are very helpful for me.

Hello to all new Homers,

I’m reading your stories with the sinking feeling of someone else who has the family from hell.

This is a good place to talk and I’ve been here since 2020 making sense of my tormenter who is my absolutely VILE mother in law aka THE HAG.

I have to say this space has helped me hugely to see the patterns, work out her behaviours, to learn that it’s OK to fuck her off and for me to talk openly about what a nightmare she is with my partner Mr Monkey. He's unearthed all kinds of horrible stories from his childhood - the physical, emotional abuse. Every week something else pops up.

I am now NC and Mr Monkey is now very LC. This is thanks to this page and mustering the strength to pushback. We have both had counselling and Mr Monkey has been diagnosed as having complex PTSD due to his awful childhood. His counselling has taken him to a place of not feeling responsible to her in any way.
He is doing brilliantly, although his emotions are up and down.

We have now entered the period of NO GOODWILL TO ALL MEN arrangements. Many of you will have followed my stories of her 10 weeks staying here for a multitude of reasons across different points 2020 - 2022 and being completely abusive 24/7.

Anyway, the run up to Xmas is a huge time of misery inflicted by her.

This is not actual Xmas where we spend time with my mum holed up with buckets of wine and crap telly across Xmas week and with normal people.

No, the issue is The Hag wanting to muscle in and spend her time there in a lovely warm home (she purposefully lives in a hovel), try to dominate her son and be waited on hand and foot. No Fucking way is she coming to wreck our family xmas. She behaves dreadfully and after Xmas 2021 she is banned from my mum’s house.

I was away at the weekend and when she knows I’m away she tries to draw Mr Monkey back into her poisonous web with more calls than the one call MM makes to her a week. He’s successfully banned the calls to his office where she would phone up screaming. Calls are transactional and short and sweet.

The whining and wheedling re: Xmas has now begun. Admittedly, this is later than the September where it used to begin but even so…

Cue conversation between Hag and MM on Sunday.

“I’m not looking forward to Christmas” in whiny voice.

No answer from MM as this is supposed to elicit “why don’t you come and wreck Monkey’s family Xmas for a week?”

“What are you doing for Xmas?”

“We’ve not decided yet.”

MM and I have a discussion over wine about Xmas. We agree we will spend Xmas Day and Xmas week with my mum and my brother’s family (home from overseas)

Hag is not welcome.

I’m happy to compromise on some levels, but we’re not having her muscle into a sane and free of unnecessary drama family home. The level of her entitlement is incredible. She brings nothing - not a bottle of wine - but horrible levels of toxicity.

I no longer feel guilty about her, but I feel incredibly angry that a nice time of year is spent arranging something that should be so simple and ENJOYABLE into something that works with her vileness.

We will do New Year’s Day lunch with her and MM’s daft Stockholm Syndrome slave brother which will be limited to two hours. Then I don’t have to see the Fucking bitch until Xmas 2024.

MM is banned from announcing the plans to her until mid-November at the earliest so we don’t have to go through the drama of Xmas 2021 where she decided she was going to STAY with her disabled son who lives 10 minutes drive away in his tiny grim as fuck terraced house with lethal stairs to force our hand to invite her to my mum’s. She ended up coming to my mum’s for Christmas Day and Night only and was HORRIBLE. We’re not dealing with the shitty emotional blackmail again.

I have a love/hate relationship with Xmas which is emotionally difficult for my family as my dad passed away very suddenly a couple of days before.

I remembered yesterday of the heart warming moment of - after my dad’s sudden death - inviting the Fucking bitch to Monkey Towers on New Year’s Day.

I burst into tears at the dinner table and she coldly said: I don’t know what I can do for you. No hug, no kind words. MM was out of the room so she could dole out this cruelty without it being witnessed. No idea to this day what this was about - her loathing of me, punishing me, her narcissism. Fuck knows.

Mind you, this is the woman who forbade Mr Monkey from having a photo of his dad on his bedside table. MM’s dad had died and MM was 8.

What a lovely woman she is.

Feeling better for writing that all down. I will be back with further developments and a liver problem from having to self-medicate myself with GIN.

I send all my love and solidarity to folks here.

@MonkeyfromManchester - the Christmas Hag Saga must be one of the Stately Homes Classics. I can't believe you'd give her the benefit of 2 hours of your time on NYD. Maybe in a Toby Carvery with you wearing hag-cancelling headphones, but even so...

@Sicario it's a classic that rates with The Illiad! I'm reminded of my A Level Shakespeare where a tragedy is created of someone’s own making. The Hag has made her life into a tragedy of her own making. Purely self-inflicted. And inflicts the misery on everyone else.

What is funny is how she's generally as nice as pie around Mr Monkey now as she knows she's pissed on her chips with him. By him stepping away the fuel has gone for her horrible little inner fire. She will, I predict, kick off but MM’s new line is “that's your choice”.

I think I'll be rubbing myself against Covid-ridden bats on New Year’s Eve…fingers crossed, she’ll kick off like 2020, backing herself into a corner and not coming over.

PRAY FOR ME.

Sending prayers to you, Monkey.
@Tbry I've got a prolapsed disc in my back. It doesn't stop me from working, strength training, cycling.
The mother is a bit like Monkey's Hag. She is dramatic and the slightest hint of headache sends her to her bed. So my bad back in her world means I should be not working, in a wheelchair, not living on my own and so on. And her looking after me = getting control back over my life.

@MonkeyfromManchester will you be hiring out those COVID ridden bats 😂

@Parentalalienation thank you. yes, illness = control. It's horrible to think that when you need genuine care, their version is about control. Normal people would be happy that you're getting on with life.

@Qualityh20 they're doing really well in my shed. Happy as Larry. By mid-November, there will be a multitude. What's your address?

@MonkeyfromManchester 😂😂 excellent put me down for a few. You wouldn't have any asp's [Egyptian cobra] my mother thinks she is the queen of Sheba, would make a suitable Xmas gift.

@Qualityh20 I’ve reserved some for you, TBH they look a bit fierce..I’m currently looking at dangerous animal import licenses to get you a couple of asps..

Can I ask if any of you send Xmas or bday cards to your family if you don't speak? My sister isn't speaking to my parents and has not since december last year, yet she sends them mothers/fathers day and bday cards with what I think would be bare bones messages inside. But is that keeping the door open? I'm new to this so unsure whether to or not. Do I send a card from the dogs?

It’s keeping a door open that should otherwise remain closed. And no do not send a card from the dogs.

Sending cards like your sister does is also a response and a response to such disordered of thinking people is the reward, they know they have you then.

Yeah I was thinking that. It's almost letting them know it's OK to carry on. Like accepting money would be the same. Thank you for your reply.

A Friday thought;

“When we meet and fall into the gravitational pull of a narcissist, we are entering a significant life lesson that involves learning how to create boundaries, self-respect, and resilience. Through trial and error (and a lot of pain), our connection with narcissists teaches us the necessary lessons we need to become mature empaths.” – Mateo Sol

Nobody wants trauma and pain but there are good things on the other side of it.

Hi all

I lurk on and off and am looking for advice. I don't want to start my own thread because I suspect most people on the site won't really get it, or I'll get a lot of "your poor DM" type responses.

We've been quite unlucky as a family in that two of my siblings have died, the first when I was a teenager and the second more recently of alcoholism.

The first one was really awful - my DM sort of tried to orchestrate everyone else's grief and created an endless amount of drama around gravestones, leaving paperwork relating to my sibling's death lying around where I'd see it when I came home from school, and shouted at me if I said anything about it. It was horrendous, went on for years, and only really got better when I left home.

Years on she wrote a book about the whole episode and gave me a draft but didn't tell me what it was about before I started reading it, and got angry when I was upset about having it all rehashed and suggested she needed counselling. I was 14 and was basically stuck in a role of supporting my DM and couldn't get out.

The next sibling who died had alcoholism, and I suspect our other sibling dying and our DM's reaction didn't help this at all.

I tried to do my best and drove up and down to see my DM as much as I could - this was during lockdown so very stressful. But nothing was ever enough. She complained to other relatives that I didn't stay long enough when my DS was sick, complained I came down to see them before the funeral in case I was thinking of not going down afterwards.

One of the things I was really upset about was that I made a book of memories for my DS' kids - it was during covid so DS didn't have a funeral with lots of people and I really wanted to do something on my own for the kids as I felt my grief for my other sibling had been so overshadowed by my DM.

DM sent a memory in for the book I'd made for my niece and nephew and then at the memorial turned up with her own memory book she hadn't told me about and gave copies to everyone. There's no way she would have thought of this idea of her own and it just felt like she was trying to squash me.

After my DS died - and my DF also was very ill - I ended up putting on loads of weight and was on antidepressants. It's taken me a long time to get back on track physically but I'm not reasonably fit. DM is quite disparaging about this too.

DF is now in the final stages with a degenerative disease and has been in a care home for the last year. I find it hard to see him and I don't think he recognises me, but DM makes out he's lucid when nobody else is there.

DM had a birthday party for him recently and I said I'd go thinking it would just be lunch and then home and then a few days beforehand she started trying to get everyone in the family to do speeches about my DF who doesn't seem to have a scooby what's going on or sometimes just sits and cries. I psyched myself up and said no, she eventually agreed to drop it but not before I had a guilt trip about what a hard life she had and pressure to come on an overnight visit.

She doesn't do anything much to help out in between times. In fact she spent virtually all my adult birthdays on holiday, which sort of led me to believe we didn't do them as a family, but now it turns out she does want to make them a thing (but only hers and DF's!)

I've had one therapy session so far but got a bit stuck on what to do, although I think maybe not doing things I'm uncomfortable with (like going to the horrible party) is maybe a start.

Sorry this is so long but has anyone else had trying to work out what's reasonable and not reasonable when dealing with a bereavement/terminal illness and a difficult family member? It always feels like I'm getting mentally beaten down having to support DM but can't say anything because then I'm being nasty to a bereaved person.

Sorry, too many DS-es. I've had two DSiblings who have died and a Dson who was sick once when we visited my parents (he threw up just before we got there), who is fine now.

Oops, sorry, should also have said I stopped going down there as much and am now relatively low contact but it all still eats away at me, which I'm trying to sort out.