September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

sharing here that the work presentation went well this morning and I’ve been forwarded onto the next stage of interviews. Won’t be telling anyone other than my partner and am sharing here because it’s safe 😅

@tonewbeginnings Thank you. There was a typo in my original post and I have really sorted myself out physically - I've lost more than 3 stones and work out all the time.

That Guardian article is very good.

One of the comments underneath really struck a chord, someone said their mother would only let them visit at 2pm and got angry if they were early or late.

Mine isn't quite as rigid about this but is really, really hard work if we meet anywhere apart from her house. She always seems to want to get there early and leave early.

One example is that we met up in the town between where we live. I'd suggested going for a coffee half an hour after my daughter's swimming lesson. She called me exactly when I'd said the lesson finished, when I was trying to get my daughter into the shower, to say she was already at the cafe and basically trying to hurry me up. It then turned out the cafe was shutting early so she hurtled off after about 20 minutes.

Another time, during covid, she came to the town where we lived to have a walk (my DF was in hospital nearby) and spent 15 minutes before she insisted on leaving. Another time we met in a garden centre for lunch when DF was in hospital and when I got there (I wasn't late) she'd already got her lunch and had begun eating it.

She's done this with other family members as well. It's basically every single time I see her outside her house she makes a weird drama about having to rush off. She's done this ever since i can remember - basically any time we went to a sports event or the theatre or whatever she'd want to get there really early but leave before the end. She's done it at funerals and my son's birthday party too.

There's never any genuine reason for this that I can fathom.

Despite this, I visit her at her house she will complain about me behind my back if she thinks I haven't stayed long enough and constantly puts pressure on me to extend visits.

Has anyone else had bizarre behaviour around timekeeping? I don't know why she does it and it is hard work.

@HoraceGoesBonkers sounds like she has deep anxiety about unfamiliar places and routines. Getting there early and leaving early sounds like she is desperately trying to get it over with.

Often people with GAD try to control their external world and the people within it - in an attempt to alleviate the out of control feeling within themselves. Doesn’t work. Causes chaos in relationships and guess what their own internal mess is escalated.

Might explain in but doesn’t excuse it.

I won’t bother wrestling with it.

@Gloriously That sounds very accurate! It has indeed caused a lot of issues. With the funeral my parents were staying with an aunt and they'd agreed to eat at the wake. DM insisted on leaving early then seemed to not understand why my aunt didn't have any food at her house.

It's been a major issue as I ran myself into the ground driving up and down to see my parents (nothing was ever enough, though) but every time I suggest going elsewhere she manages to make it really, really stressful. She'll also often try to shift the goalposts at the last minute to cajole us into going to her house which I find hard as she then will repeatedly ask us to stay longer and/or try to offload random bits of junk onto us.

I invited her for lunch before Christmas last year and as soon as I told her she started agitating about having lunch early. On the day everyone was chilling out and talking but she kept standing in the middle of the room trying to make announcements about my Dad and then later on burst into tears when she went for a walk with my sister.

It sounds harsh but she's been consistently awful to everyone else during bereavements and I just find myself struggling to give any emotional support now. I had to talk her out of trying to hire a funeral director when my sister died (sister was in her 50s and had a husband and teenage kids and it was obviously going to be them that organised it). I found the extra emotional labour exhausting.

She never really puts much into relationships in the good times but expects everyone to rally round and excuse her behaviour during the bad times.

I've mostly given up now and feel very guilty about it. Sorry, I know I'm rambling away but I've just been so down about it all for the last few weeks.

I would drop the rope and let her flounder.

You reap what you sow.

She sounds draining, exasperating and delusional. She needs professional medical help.

In many ways twisting yourself into a pretzel to keep her ‘happy’ is inadvertently counterproductive as it’s enabling and responding to her bad behaviour and nonsense demands.

You would be doing her a favour by putting in boundaries (if you can be bothered).

Decide whats the perfect and maximum interaction for you. Can be anywhere along the spectrum from LC to NC from face to face to non contact text, birthday card.

You decide because nothing you do will make her happy - so just do what makes you happy .... be aware of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) - as these are never reasons or emotions to do anything that you don’t want to.

These types get worse with age. Know that. Seems like you have given too much of your heart and soul already. Redirect your finite emotional resources, energy and time to yourself and the positive relationships in your life.

What’s going to happen if you shift gear / detach? Expect her to kick off initially - but just weather it - batten down the hatches and detach some more - it will pass.

@tonewbeginnings
Well done that's great news. Fingers crossed for the next stage .x

Mine is very controlling if everything as well doesn’t like other people suggesting it arranging things , even if you were taking her for a really nice meal she would be difficult as you were in charge not her. She won’t even watch what I suggest on tv even if she likes it in fact she has to video everything to watch later so you will sit there in an uncomfortable silence while she videos a program to
watch after you have left rather then just put it on and watch with you. I once had fun with her TV guide and highlighters highlighting all the programs I knew she would never watch just to confuse her 🤣

@HoraceGoesBonkers just to ask you a question, does your mum have a complex relationship with food/dieting also?

Apologies if this causes offence to anyone as there is a mention of ED.

I only ask as my mum has the control thing massively but also has a longstanding disordered relationship with food and dieting (I would go as far to say an ED IMO).So if we would ask her out to lunch for a birthday/ special occasion there would be a massive kick back of excuses not to: waste of money, we can cook here for you (the control element as she would control the menu and the cooking of it), or just making a big fuss whilst out. She recently went to lunch with my uncles and aunts and kicked off over something like she only wanted starters (think limited portions) but wouldn't ask the serving staff if this was doable (the easy and sensible option for most) she threw her toys out of the pram in front of everyone. What a delightful meal that must have been!

Mine can be quite controlling about food, but in a different way. She used to weigh one of my sisters when she was a teen and she was only allowed out if her weight met with my Mum's approval.

She used to go on and on about it if she thought me or my sisters were too fat and I had quite a bad bout of bulimia in my late teens.

I haven't been in touch with her much recently and have been grey rock-ing. She's phoned a couple of times over the last week and I haven't picked up, I can't face it at the moment at all.

Rather than ghosting her I'm actually thinking about telling her I'm having counselling and asking her to stop trying to escalate things when I do see her. I'm not sure how to phrase this but she constantly tries to extend visits and also has quite a considerable talent for riling people up.

For example, I once said I would meet her in the centre of the town she lives in. She instantly started pushing to go somewhere a few miles out of town which is close to the care home where DF is, so was clearly trying to wangle the trip into being much longer and stressful (I've stopped doing joint visits to DF with her as I find it quite hard seeing him at the best of times and with her obsession with being early and causing a fuss it just becomes unbearable).

I suspect if I say anything she will just get angry and deny there's an issue, or blame me, but I've been thinking about it a lot and think I may feel better if I try.

The poking at people thing is really unpleasant too. The last time she was here she was talking to my son about taking him to the panto when he was little and how he was really upset because he didn't like the noise. She sort of goes out her way to remind people of negative things.

@Gloriously Thank you. I have had a couple of episodes where I've asked her just not to contact me when I've been ill. The last time my blood pressure was through the roof and I was in and out of the GPs. She'd been doing early morning Whatsapp messages and I asked her just to leave me be for a couple of weeks until I got better. She shouted at me when I phoned her after.

She also used to phone up my alcoholic sister and wind her up which would normally trigger her drinking, both me and my other sister asked both of them to stop contacting each other but they kept going.

Horace

I would urge you not to tell your mother anything about you having counselling let alone asking her to stop escalating things when you do see her. It will be used by her as a stick to beat you further emotionally with. You need to put her on an information diet telling her nothing of note about any aspect of your life. You need to be as interesting to her as a grey rock. Any boundary you set her too she will overstep, her WhatsApp contact when you were unwell is a further example of her trampling over your boundaries.

She in all likelihood has some form of cluster b personality disorder, to this end she is likely to be a narcissist and sadly it’s not possible to have a relationship with someone that disordered of thinking. You’ve received the Special Training the adult children of such narcissistic parents receive to put her first with your own needs and wants dead last. All that you’ve written about her is typical of how a narcissist behaves and she makes everything all about her. You people are bit part players with she being at the centre of her universe.

Ultimately you need to keep both yourself and your son away from her entirely. Drop the rope she holds out to you.

I very much limit what I tell her now and have done for years. When I had my son she spent the run up constantly messaging, phoning and e-mailing then tried to gatecrash the operating theatre when I had my son (the hospital was 2 hours from her house but she made up an elaborate reason that she 'just happened' to be passing).

When I had my daughter a few years later I lied about my due date, didn't say anything to her when I was taken into hospital and only told her when DD was here. She flounced around the hospital making a big deal of being Dad's carer - I think the nurses were meant to be impressed - then started bombarding me with messages.

The thing is I was really, very ill after having DD - I lost nearly 2 litres of blood and had sky high blood pressure and the community midwife sent me straight back in to hospital. I was completely pallid and had anaemia. When I got taken back in I explained I was sick and needed some peace. This was unfortunately like a red rag to a bull and she kept hassling me anyway, and bitched about me behind my back.

I think the reason I want to say something to her is that I've been feeling worse about everything for the last few weeks, despite being quite low contact. My sister has cancer and I just feel so despairing about it all and also feel trapped in a really shitty holding pattern. Maybe best not to provoke her though.

After my brother died she was really sneery about my granny, her MIL, having depression. I also once found a cutting she was going to send my late sister which was basically a weird victim blaming piece about how women who had depression "wanted to have it all". I binned it because it was quite clearly going to make my sister feel worse.

Thanks for all the advice, it's good to let some of this stuff out too rather than it festering away. I've also ordered one of the books from the list above.

Just to say I have read all the latest posts. Love to everyone even though I have no great advice to give.

Really difficult time here at the moment, my MH has been shocking. A milestone birthday for my adult DS at the weekend and nobody sent anything. Just 2cards with small gift only and no mention of it being a big birthday, one of which was from a more recent family member so not someone around when he was a child. Nothing from my family, my close friend that we regard as his aunt or my DPs family. No texts, calls or online messages.

I am so very hurt on his behalf, and well basically just hurt. I expect to be treated like it as over the years some of my birthdays and Christmases have been terrible but I don’t expect him to be as he’s the loved grandson/nephew etc etc etc.

I brought him up completely alone and suffered horrific DV and abuse in the past so my family know he only has me and them. The abuse was so dreadful that I kept the contact with my family going for his sake so that if I did not make it out alive he would have uncles, aunts, grandparents who loved him and would look after him.

I just don’t know what I can possible say or do so he doesn’t feel as low as I do. Just can’t stop crying 😢

@Tbry I find birthdays tough too. I used to organise a party to mask the sadness and invite anyone that was around - colleagues, acquaintances and the few friends I have. I have done the same for my kids. It seemed like a quick fix without addressing and facing the reality of my toxic family relationships.

Occasionally my siblings and mother remember a milestone birthday - but that is even stranger because it’s not consistent and somehow is more hurtful. A few years ago, I stupidly asked my mother why she doesn’t remember my birthday. It was a big milestone birthday for me then and she said “how on earth am I supposed to remember everyone’s birthdays?. I don’t even know how old you are”.

My mother up until recently took a 8 hour flight twice a year to attend the birthdays of my golden child siblings’ children. We live a short train ride away and she has never visited for my children’s birthdays. When I had my first kid (years ago) I invited her over for their first birthday, giving my mum 4 months notice. She said she would come and then a month before told me that some friends are going on holiday and my dad and her have decided to go with them. She then proceeded to say don’t celebrate my kids’ birthday and to postpone the celebrations for the month after so they can come. I told her that we’re going to continue with our celebration and I’m sorry she can’t make it.

Recently I have been celebrating my birthdays with my partner and kids only. I’ve also been taking some time to myself to process and deal with how I feel. Just like you, I cry.

I’m trying not to orchestrate stuff to pretend things are great with me (like the parties). I have felt a lot and cried a lot during this time. I haven’t really given myself time to really feel things in my body as much as I needed to. It’s made me feel more vulnerable and sad, but weirdly stronger at the same time. It’s making my relationship with my partner better - I was very guarded as I am overly worries about rejection or judgement.

Anyway, long post and no advice but just that I hear you - the birthdays thing is triggering and tough 💛

@Tbry and @tonewbeginnings I also find birthdays a bit tricky.

My DParents, from about when I was 18 onwards, used to always go on holiday for a month over my birthday. This went on for something like 15 years. I just figured we didn't really do adult birthdays in the family and that was ok.

They'd initially bring me back some total tat they'd bought on holiday as a present, plastic ethnic bracelets and then kind of thing that they must have noticed I never wore but they kept buying. I charity shopped a load of them a while back.

Except now that they can't go on holidays any more it turns out DM actually does want people to make a big fuss of her on her birthdays. Last year it was a weekend long event for her bday and this year she wanted a big family party for my DF's birthday.

On everyone else's birthday she expects them to go and visit her or she doesn't really bother much - DS11 got a bank transfer but no card.

I found DF's birthday party really hard as he's very old and frail now and I don't think knew what was happening; I prefer seeing him on my own but knew she would kick off massively if I didn't go to the family lunch in DF's care home. But of course it wasn't enough it itself and she started trying to turn it into a far more elaborate and lengthy event.

I tend to just have something at home for me with my husband and kids. I found the DF party thing so stressful I've resolved to say no to the next family event.

@HoraceGoesBonkers oh! My mum does the bank transfer thing too - no card, no visit, no call.

It’s so they can kid themselves and their friends by acknowledging your birthday but they don’t want to have to interact with you at all. My mum sent me a passive aggressive 50 th birthday present through the post no phone call to wish me a happy birthday . I think the reason she can’t acknowledge me is that to do so she would have to acknowledge her behaviour and she is never going to do that

@tonewbeginnings I think my worst one ever was DD's 4th birthday. A couple of weeks earlier I'd had to go into hospital in the middle of the night because I was told DF was at the end of life. DM was really, really difficult to deal with at the time and for some time afterwards. She seems to actively use crises to really ramp up bad behaviour and then says she was/is "in shock", which she seems to think is a free pass to do whatever she likes.

She sent a Whatsapp very early, around 7am in the morning wishing DD a happy birthday but then going on to give a very lengthy update about my DF which was clearly why she was actually bothering to get in touch. I felt I couldn't say anything because DF was so ill but I was actually quite angry that, after all the time and effort I'd spent on them, I apparently wasn't meant to have one fucking morning focusing on DD without them being the centre of attention.

@HoraceGoesBonkers last year my husband was diagnosed with throat cancer. Thankfully successful operation, 3 months of chemo & radiology has made him very tired along with other side effects. NOT ONCE did my parents ask how he was until in anger I told them how disgraceful they were, all their daily petty complaints, they hadnt even considered how scared and exhausted we both were. They are truly unbelievable, I finally went NC end of this January, I no longer had the energy or desire to deal with them. They just suck the oxygen out of everything, everything is about them. If selfish me me me was an olympic sport we have the gold medalists on this thread!

@binkie163 My sister got diagnosed with cancer recently. Initially when the docs thought it was "just" a benign tumour my DM was really minimising it all and when I asked if she wanted to chip in for a get well soon present she did so reluctantly because it was "just" day surgery.

Then when it turned out my sister did have cancer she has phoned round all our relatives without asking my sister if she wants them to know and made a big fuss to my sister about how she's been phoning up a cancer helpline, and also told my sister that her and Dad "wept together", apparently just for extra melodrama. I'm not convinced Dad has much of a clue what's going on now, he can't move, see or speak, feed himself or anything, mostly just sleeps, and telling him just seems to be geared towards causing more pointless upset.

She's also back to asking my sister if it's going to be a "minor operation".

My sister has a lot more patience with her than me, helps her a lot, and I just feel really sickened. When anyone else has an illness or crisis or whatever she uses it to generate attention for herself, when it's her or DF we're all expected to rush down and give her unconditional support while she behaves really badly. I haven't spoken to her for a couple of weeks now.

I'm sorry to hear about your husband and I hope things are more settled now.

@HoraceGoesBonkers husband is an absolute trooper and doing well thank you but even he is shocked they haven't asked after or called him. They are quick enough to call him when they want something 😡 my mother is a drama queen and I expect she is wailing to everyone how inconvenient my husband's cancer is for her. My mum has been pretending to have dementia for last 10 years, her Dr told me it's just for attention, she has cried wolf so often saying she is dying that as my niece said to me today mum has used all her get out of jail cards. I do sometimes wonder what I ever did to deserve such awful parents, if karma is true, must have been bloody naughty.

@binkie163 It's weird how so many of them seem to operate to a very similar script! Mine has been making out my DF is about to die for many years and particularly steps things up over Christmas.

In 2019 we'd agreed to have a extended family Christmas at mine. They cancelled because DF was apparently too ill to travel and there was much drama. Everyone rushed down to see them on Christmas Eve, my youngest was just over a year so it really was quite a lot of unexpected upheaval. DF didn't seem particularly ill then they went on holiday a couple of weeks later. More fool me!

I'm finding it immensely helpful being on this thread and writing it all down rather than having it all bottled up.

@Tbry oh love😢. I know that feeling well although I think it affects us far more than it affects our children. My family have dwindled over the past few years to one narcissistic elderly mother, one very impatient BIL (who often decides we’re not his family even though he was married to my sister for 35 years) and one brother who’s quite nice but tends to side with my mum too much to be a support. It’s horrible to feel that they’d have no one.

@HoraceGoesBonkers I can't tell you the years I felt deep shame, embarrassment and guilt about my parents. Both alcoholics in a small posh village, the public screaming matches, often in the village pub, my mum was a serial shagger, a narcissist and my father her enabler and weak. I still cringe at many memories like my mother trying to shag my boyfriend's.
The futility and effort it has taken over the years to keep things together, their behavior didn't change even when forced to sober up 30 years ago, my dad lost his driving license and job repeatedly, my mum nearly ended up sectioned.
I started reading these pages and felt such relief that I wasn't the only one. They all seem to have overlapping behaviors. I dropped all hope I ever had about them ever behaving like normal people. I wish I had gone NC 40 years ago and never looked back. Neither of my parents cared about or for their own parents and yet think they are entitled to 24/7 attention, beggars belief. I always told my husband I feel like that person with the broom in ice curling, my parents hurling themselves around while I furiously brush to smooth their way.

If you have young children, make a will! It’s given me peace of mind as I used to have this background anxiety on what would happen to the kids if anything happened to my partner and I. My family is toxic and my partners live overseas so we had to think about who to put in the will.