September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Thank you. She's escalated massively. I contacted social services and said she was unsafe, I can no longer care for her.

Well done @BluebellsForest

@BluebellsForest we are all here for you, hope you are ok 💐

I just need to vent a little with people who understand……

Some background - I’m early 50’s. I’ve always had a ‘challenging’ relationship with my mother. While my father was alive (and I now look back) I believe he shielded me from much of her behaviour. I’ve always felt she was jealous of me, she’s never been there for me and is unsupportive.

I’ve been LC with her for years. She’s argumentative and generally unpleasant to me. For my own mental health and realising I got no joy out of a relationship with her I went very LC with her some time ago. The relief has been immense.

May this year I phoned her to tell her I was getting married (eloping) in October and we were having a party (which she was invited to) on our return. Invite was sent out 1st week of June with an RSVP of the 31st July. By the end of July - EVERYONE had responded to the invite apart from my own mother. When I phoned her to ask if she was coming she responded with something along the lines of ‘I have until today to respond’. She’s always playing games.

She’s had absolutely no interest in the wedding. Absolutely none. Hasn’t asked anything about it. Over the year’s girlfriends have told me they’ve gone dress shopping with their mums - I could never go with mine. She’s not even asked about my dress! Until she rang me a week before we were due to fly out to ask me the date we were getting married and tell me she had paid £400 for my brother (the golden child / flying monkey) to come to London & she had paid for his hotel for the party. Of course, there’s been no offer of help to me - not that I would ever ask or expect.

The day of the wedding last week (having told her the day) I think I hoped she would call or message me to wish me luck. I’m her only daughter. Of course there was nothing. I did feel a little sad.

I arrive home today and a card has arrived (which she’s dated the day after we got married) to say she hopes we had a nice wedding day and here’s a cheque for £3k toward the cost of the wedding.

The sad thing is - I remember growing up and her telling me how her own parents took no interest in her wedding to my dad and there was no offer to pay for anything which had upset her at the time.

As usual, I’m left feeling emotionally unsupported (which I could never discuss with her as she would get aggressive and end in a shouting match - her shouting which she does should anyone not agree with her) and then there’s a grand gesture of money to reel me back in.

I can’t decide if she’s a narcissist (I’ve never thought she is bright enough) or an emotionally unavailable mother.

@NorthernSpirit my mother is exactly the same, bar the money...shes generous with other siblings but has seen me struggle without offer help. Im ok with that, i have no one to thank.
Take the 3k!!! Bank it...let it clear...send her a thankyou card. That's all. Stay LC. Enjoy your future with your DP. BTW she is both of what you mention. I am NC with my mother.

She is both. Do not ever cash the cheque, that is a further attempt to regain some power and control over you. Gifts too should come with ribbons, or strings and that money is loaded with obligations. She has a golden child in the shape of your brother, you’re the scapegoat here. She is very much a narcissist.

You must let go of any and all residual hope that she has and or will change, that scenario does not happen. I presume you only told her about your wedding out of having received the Special Training adult children of narcissists receive. Low contact often leads to no contact and I would further reduce all contact levels with her. It is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

I don't think you have to be bright to be a narcissist, @NorthernSpirit. My understanding is that it's more an instinctive mode of behaviour. Although I'm sure intelligent people add their own extras.

Unless you are in serious financial trouble, I would take satisfaction in returning the money. and going NC. She has behaved horribly over your wedding. Take your marriage as a fresh start without her pathetic games tripping you up.

Thanks for the supportive posts, @Tbry and @marshmallowdreams 💜

@NorthernSpirit I will have to also have my wedding day alone, apart from my DP, as no one wants to attend. I also have no one to go dress shopping with me or any of the other special things. I had hoped my DM or female siblings and friends would be interested but I once again overestimated on their behalf’s….the sad bit and I know not the bit I should fixate on is if we marry alone I will then get nasty comments about not including anyone even though none of them want to be involved but it’s another way of having a dig at me and putting me down.

I live a few hours drive from all my family and I get digs about that too in just the same manner. I moved away to protect my sanity and because they did not include me in their lives, but now that’s used as it’s all my fault they don’t have contact with me as I moved 🤷‍♀️. It’s all just nasty games and messes with my head.

A different topic slightly but I’ve been worried sick about one of my parents for quite a few months as wouldn’t tell me where they are etc as they and my step parent have split up. These were the only two reliable family members in my life in the last ten years (my parent not being a reliable parent towards me prior to that). And today out of the blue my said parent calls my DP to have a chat with him. So I get passed on snippets of info but no actual contact. My DP relayed the info for me to decipher to me and I just burst into tears for an hour 😰

@NorthernSpirit congratulations I hope your special day was everything you and your partner hoped for.

Sorry to hear about your mother ruining things.

@NorthernSpirit congratulations!
It's a shame that you didn't have a nice mother to go dress shopping with 💖

But, when my mother came wedding dress shopping with me she didn't like my dress and put quite a downer on it. My bridesmaid and the lady in the shop has to be extra enthusiastic to compensate. (And my dress was fab and I clearly loved it because I couldn't stop smiling when i put it on)

So maybe it was a blessing that your mum "only" upset you by not being present as opposed to actively upsetting you iyswim

As pp have said, take this opportunity to have a fresh start

Trying to fathom shitty behaviours from shitty family members is totally pointless. And it doesn't really matter why they behave like they do. It's completely out of our control and there's nothing we can do about it, except to choose to cut it out of our lives.

I'm so sorry for your upset @NorthernSpirit - you know it was deliberate game playing on her part. I usually agree with Attila, but in this case I would say bank the money and flick your mother the bird. You can take the money as compensation for her behaving like a dick. Then go straight back to ultra LC or NC. And congratulations on your nuptials! Wishing you every happiness.

I would agree, in this one instance only, I would also cash the cheque as compensation. And then go NC.

I agree with @Sicario and @Tbry - I think anything I got was fucking hard earned and I deserved it. But stand firm on any attempt to use the money to control you.
"But I gave you all that money, why won't you do what I want?"
"Well you didn't tell me that was the price, I thought it was to make up for your appalling parenting". "You didn't tell me there were strings attached or I would have said no". Or something along those lines.
Have a great day @NorthernSpirit , focus on all the nice things.

As a long time lurker, can I just say how amazingly helpful this thread is. You are all so wonderful and supportive, and it gives me a huge amount of comfort to know you are out there being excellent, compassionate people in spite of the experiences you’ve had.

I don’t know if I’ll ever feel ready to write about my own circumstances with my utterly dysfunctional family dynamic (whichever PP mentioned feeling like making a Powerpoint presentation for your therapist - yep!!), but I know if/when I am this is somewhere I will feel seen and understood 💐 thank you all x

That’s how I felt too after popping in and out reading bits over the months.

I come from a big family and I’m going through a low blip with my MH again as currently have over 50 relations not speaking to me and NC or LC meaning a xmas card once a year if I’m lucky. If I include the kids it’s over 80 people I love but don’t get to see. And I’m over 5hours away all alone just trying to hold on and protect myself.

I tried to once again explain to my DM that I won’t be home to visit anytime soon for numerous reasons but mainly because I can’t be there with people treating me like this (which means I can’t see her either). I hope she means well but our phone call was strained as she still doesn’t believe that my siblings don’t want me in their lives and that I’m imagining all of this.

It’s soul destroying and I feel like I can’t tell anyone as no one could possibly understand and that there’s something wrong with me. I don’t even think my DP understands so this thread is a lifeline for me 💐

The thing is with these awful dysfunctional relationships is that they rely on us keeping our mouths shut and sucking up the abuse. The minute you stand up for yourself and tell people to piss off, all hell breaks loose.

It takes guts and strength to break the cycle.

I wear my decision with pride these days. On holiday recently I met some new people, as you do, and the question of family came up. I said with a smile, "I don't have anything to do with my family. I am no contact for very good reason and my life is a lot better for it." And leave it at that.

You'd be surprised how many people then open up about how shit their family relationships are too.

Sending solidarity to all, with a side helping of wine and crisps for Friday evening.

@Sicario I finally went NC in January. My parents are in their 90's a few friends said half jokingly 'cant you hang on another 1-2 years for the inheritance' no I absolutely cant, I cant waste another moment of my life on them. Their selfish, narc/enabler, attention seeking demands which know no boundaries. I literally would have lost my mind had I tried. I hope their last few years are miserable knowing they can no longer get to me and that I give even less of a shit about them than they do about me. I bet my conniving siblings are knackered hanging onto the rope from the crazy lady that I finally dropped, serves them right.......that is better off my chest!

@binkie163 @Sicario you are both so brave and brilliant - well done for finally putting your own sanity and wellbeing first. I aspire to this one day! It feels like a long road though. I wonder if there will ever come a day when I’m truly free of all this; even if I went NC it’s learning how not to let it occupy your mind and affect your other (good, healthy) relationships that is the tricky bit. Any advice gratefully received - and perhaps I need to find a good therapist?

@MarryingMrDarcy I am 62 years old, I wish I had NC 40 years ago, every time I refused to talk to them, their toddler temper tantrums were hard to deal with, they would bombard me with screaming drunk calls.
Obviously I now know that is typical narc behavior. My dad crying, a tactic he has used to manipulate me since I was a child.
I have kept them at arms length for years, I moved abroad, I last saw them 2018.
Some huge lies were exposed by accident January and that was it, I just hung up the phone and knew I would never speak to them ever again.
I won't lie it was really uncomfortable for a few months but as the weeks went by it got easier, reading these threads massively helped to see all the shit for what it was.

A close friend in similar situation phoned Wednesday night her mother just died, her life and health ruined being at her mum's beck and call for last 20 years, hoping her mum would finally love her. It was so sad, her mum's last words to her were that she had always been a huge disappointment 😥 she said she couldn't talk to anyone about it. These bastards do not change, no matter how much we hope they will, if they could understand how much pain they caused us...truth is they just don't give a shit as long as they get what they want.

I won't lie, going NC was really hard. The guilt almost ate me alive. Fact is I should have done it a very long time ago rather than getting further enmeshed.

The whole thing did occupy my mind a lot @MarryingMrDarcy but I guess that was to be expected after a lifetime of what Attila calls "the special training".

Therapy is definitely helpful but it needs to be a therapist who understands the benefits of walking away from toxic families rather than one who tries to encourage reconciliation.

I did the nuclear option and moved away from the area with no trace of where I had gone to. None of my family of origin, even the ones I still love (nieces and nephews), know where I live. Some of them have already unwittingly been used as flying monkeys.

So there is a big price to pay when going NC. It's the old "omelettes and eggs" analogy.

It's a very long healing process, but in my case I can definitely say it was worth it for the peaceful, drama-free life I now have.

Toxic people never change. If anything, they get worse as their views calcify with age. They'll never be happy either, and we all know how misery loves company.

@Sicario I had kept a very tight lid on my childhood I just didn't have the time to open that can of seething resentment.

I read on here that dysfunctional families breed resentment in the unfair unequal treatment of siblings, it is a deliberate narc tactic to crush you.
I cried for first few months of NC, real body wrenching sobs, all the shit hit me like a tsunami, I was shaking and sick.
I read on here repeatedly that these parents are incapable of relationships/love, only their needs/wants matter. The more you give the more they take, walk away, save yourself.
I had been lurking on this thread for over a year, I have gone back 4 years of stately homes in the last 9 months. I needed to understand why it was so hard, why I desperately wanted approval/love from 2 disgustingly selfish people who made my childhood a misery.
Then one day I just felt free, I go many days when I don't think about them. I feel more peaceful, the guilt has gone, I don't feel sorry or sad for them anymore. I need to embrace the quiet which isn't easy as their chaos infected my adult life. These threads are my therapy, knowing that it is them, it isn't me, I'm not imagining that they are vile deceitful bastards, they really are. I am so grateful that I have had this as a resource. I wasn't able to post until recently but I owe it to all of those posts that got me through to say thank you.

This safe place is a life saver for me I really mean that. I had no idea that anyone else had gone through the same types of behaviour ive experienced. Thank you all

I needed to understand why it was so hard, why I desperately wanted approval/love from 2 disgustingly selfish people who made my childhood a misery.

Its called ‘relentless hope’

We are biologically programmed from birth to connect and attach to our caregivers because as mammals they were literally 100% responsible for if we lived or died.

As babies and children we needed them for food, shelter and protection. Physically being close to them is our ‘survival instinct’ - on top of that we also have a drive to bond with them to feel emotionally safe. We also needed emotional substance (love and guidance) to survive. Your biology and psychology is still chasing this survival need - the yearning and the disappointment of rejection is deeply despairing because our biology expects a stable loving connection with our caregivers. It’s also the cognitive dissonance - in any other relationship if you get treated badly or rejected you walk away - but with caregivers we repeatedly go back hoping for connection, approval, acceptance love. That’s your wounded inner child still seeking - ‘relentless hope’.

Thats why it is so so painful and difficult to both experience and walk away from because we are subconsciously compelled by biology to connect - it’s a survival instinct - life and death and when it doesn’t happen it feels in our body / biology / subconscious that we might die.

@Gloriously
So well put. Thank you.

I was only saying this to my husband last night after some family news caused me to wobble again.
It wasn't even bad news and nobody said anything hurtful regarding it but it just made me feel so crap about myself and that I am not as good as everybody else because all my life I have felt I have to compete and compare myself to others . And of course I feel that I am invariably found wanting. Never quite able to reach the mark . In truth I now know that my birth family have little interest in me or my life at all unless they want something from me. It hurts not to have that unconditional love from them.
So I was saying to my husband why can't I just let it go ? Why do I even care anymore whether I am acceptable to my extended family ?
Also to be clear I didn't endure anywhere near what some others have on here have . With my family It was / is all v subtle . A lifetime of having to uphold the perfect childhood narrative and of v subtle judgements and veiled criticism that has left me so confused as to whether I am justified or not in the anger and hurt I feel.
My self esteem has always been low and I am tired of the struggle to overcome that and nurture myself . Just as I feel I am getting somewhere it only takes one small incident as above for it all to come crashing down.

Yes events can disproportionately trigger our old wounds - Christmas, Birthdays and family news - a parallel life going on without us - can all trigger the painful sense of longing to belong, for acceptance and then loneliness again - and if we have have some self compassion which is that’s its understandable and accept these feelings as ‘normal’ - it’s normal to want, need and miss your family - and give time to tend to them - they will pass.

It’s not a easy road. And not one we have chosen. But I liken these instances to like a game or snakes and ladders - you stumble but don’t fall all the way to the start. Give yourself some moments of tenderness that they never did and get back to living your life when you are ready.

For me it got better v slowly over time - a v long time - 4 years in now and it still hurts - the anger has gone but I still want the happy ever after although I know it’s not possible