September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Thank you all. I've cslmed down a little now and thankfully she didn't call back.

Hi there wise stately home thread people. Hoping to get some solidarity and/or advice.

So I would describe my childhood as toxic. No deliberate abuse, but alcoholic dad who was occasionally physically aggressive with me or my mum. Mum who was so constantly overwhelmed by her own emotions she’d lean on me. Both damaged by their own childhoods. Both so overwhelmed by their own emotional needs that they were not emotionally containing. So people to be wary around rather than people to ‘go to’ at times of distress. Both prone to unpredictable bouts of rage. My mum was also quite critical. Divorced in my teens. Things continued as they had been but in separate houses.

So it was unpredictable, sometimes scary and I grew up never feeling good enough. I was always the peacemaker and the ‘sensible’ one. I tried really hard to ‘be good’ but did have a few major outbursts in my teens. Mostly I internalised the pain and saw myself as not good enough. My younger sister was wild and wilful and just did what she wanted. She was angry and physically aggressive at times. I would say she’d meet criteria for Borderline Personality disorder now.

I struggled with my own emotional well-being in my 20s but went to Uni any way and got away from my family. Low contact worked for years. Then I got married and started a family and that meant more contact. No unsupervised contact with my dad, btw. I have done a lot of work on myself and have a good understanding of what happened and why. Have had good psychological well-being mostly, but it takes effort. As a parent now that’s my main focus so that I can do better than my parents.

Life ticked along ok with low contact for many years. Brief visits meant everyone on best behaviour. My sister would kick off often and storm out but mum seemed more level and sorted. She had her own journey with her emotionally abusive mum and talked to me about that. I’m pretty sorted now so it felt fine. I could be supportive. I moved further away but then somehow got lulled into thinking me and my mum had a good relationship and I suggested she move nearer to us. I know!! Why?!!!

Last few years then have become harder. She’s getting old and frail and is needing more practical care which I don’t mind doing. It’s been ok. But then my dad died about 6 months ago.

It’s brought it all back up again. And I’m feeling angry with her.

She was so focused on herself after his death that she actually made the whole process harder for me. It’s just reminded me that she was never my ‘rock’. Her own emotions were always too overwhelming for her and I became her ‘rock’ from a very young age.

Now I’m in a situation where I have to do the practical aspects of taking care of her. I invited her to move closer with that in mind. So I have a duty of care. Also she is very close to DC and she adores them and vice versa. She’s not deliberately mean or horrible - just ineffective as a parent.

But I’m so angry.

My options, as I see them, are;

1. talk to her about how I’m feeling and why and see if we can build a better relationship. BUT I know she will breakdown in tears and it will completely wobble her in her current state (in terms of her psychological well-being and physical health). I am not sure I feel strong enough at the moment either but hopefully will as time goes on.
2. Go lower contact (so do what’s necessary in a warm way but not go out of my way to spend time with her) - and put in strategies to look after myself before and after seeing her as she often says things that make me feel shit.

Any tips? Anyone had ‘the talk’ and it’s worked out? Any tips for surviving bits of contact? I need to take her for medical appointments as she doesn’t drive. She has no friends locally so we are her main social outlet too. She won’t walk far.

BluebellsForest · 25/09/2023

I absolutely believe that one of the side effects of this family shit for me is ongoing exhaustion.

You are so right. For me it’s the having to manage my own emotional reactions to remain calm, wise and reasonable when underneath I’m in turmoil. Being the ‘grown up’ when everyone else is losing their shit. I don’t mind doing that for DC. That’s my job. But when it’s for every one else too it’s bloody exhausting!!

Hope you are doing ok.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thankyou for answering that was really helpful x
@binkie163 yes thankyou I will pm you. Yes it was a joint account I think but there was no problem with her accessing money from it until now a year later so I donwondercwhat has happened. X

I've been in hospital with my asthmatic 5yo for the last few days. My mum has been sending me hostile messages the demanding my signature the entire time. It makes me extra cross because she is a smoker and whilst she was living here I asked her to always smoke outside. But one day in the last weeks she was here I came down to find her smoking in the kitchen with my daughter stood right next to her. I lost my shit with her... instead of apologising she just cried and said I did not understand her (what is there to understand that would make it ok to smoke in an enclosed room next to my daughter whos been in hospital ten plus times nearly dying from asthma attacks??) And that i was controlling and over sensitive. So being in hospital with my daughter on oxygen and getting all these crazed texts is really hurting me right now. I havent responded but I think my husband has.. I think he's too nice to her tho. Shes absolutely on a grift with him.

@ItsBroughtItAllBackAgain im sorry you’re going through this, I can relate to a lot of the feelings. I find that accepting the reality of my situation quite difficult, intellectually I know my parents are disturbed, toxic people but there’s some part of me that hopes they will see the error of their ways. However, due to recent events the reality is becoming clearer for me and I’m starting to understand that they will never, ever be capable of being normal people.

my advice to you would be to not bother having any chat with her because she really won’t understand, people like your mother, and mine, just aren’t capable. You will be left upset and unsettled after it. I’ve tried having these chats, trying to make her see my point of view and it’s crazy making. It’s a very hard situation so you have my full sympathy.

@14blackcrows
You poor thing. Put a temporary block on your mum’s number. You don't need to respond to her, but yes, when you're up to it, contact the notaire etc.

If you can, calmly explain to your husband that you are both taking a break from your mum’s drama whilst your daughter gets her health back and you would rather he didn't have contact with your mum.

I'd explain that there is a risk of you being liable for her costs so at the moment you need to detach and get the head space to explore the financial risks.

Typical abuser behaviour of grifting on the one who's not seen through the BS.

You can take back control.

@BluebellsForest @Tbry

Thanks for your replies. I do find some advice in articles to be against my natural instincts.

I guess more than forgiving what I want is not to be triggered and then mentally overwhelmed by past trauma. I had therapy for about 4 years regularly which was helpful and have only dipped in and out of therapy for the last 5 years. It’s an ongoing process of being less frequently triggered and less affected by it when I am. I have reached this with one particular family member so I know it’s possible with the other (and his flying monkeys too).

Agree don’t have the chat - they can’t / won’t see the patterns or big picture.

Words are useless and counterproductive.

However I would start nipping individual things in the bud - like having a toddler.

1. When you say / do x I feel hurt.

1. If you say / do x again I will leave / put down a the phone / not invite you into my home etc

1. Then leave / put down the phone / stop invitations without explaining further.

You need to identify what your boundaries are (these are her specific words and behaviours that leave you feeling hurt or confused or angry or deflated).

Be ready to use your words calmly and your actions assertively directly on the next incident.

Then just keep doing it without explaining or justifying.

It seems that things are shifting. You are both likely unsettled with complex grief which makes you both more burdened and sensitive.

Her emotional and physical dependency on you is continuing to increase as she (and you age).

You are likely having increasing demands from children and making your own peace of mind, happiness and contentment a priority.

We all have finite emotional energy and headspace - conserve it deploy it where it is reciprocated - choose your own well-being and that of your children to invest it in.

There are lots of befriending and community services for your DM to engage with to lack up the slack.

That - was for @ItsBroughtItAllBackAgain

junebugalice

Thanks for posting. Sorry to hear recent events have been tough, but sounds like they have been an extra insight too.

Yes. I can relate to that hoping it can change. She tried to communicate her pain to her mum, who initially cried and apologised, but then after a week or so changed to angry and defensive and my mum was basically shunned by her family. So there is a bit of me wonders if she will get it. BUT in her head she’s been an amazing mum to me because she was more loving than hers was. I’m not sure she would have the insight.

No idea what I’d even say.

Gloriously · Today 12:43

Those are great ideas. Thanks so much. Interesting that two people have now said don’t have ‘the conversation’. I wonder if anyone ever has and it’s gone ok? I just think in the future if DC come to me as adults and say ‘you did xyz when I was growing up and it caused me this kind of pain’ I would be empathic and understanding. I’d explain that I did my best and apologise for hurt caused. I hope I would anyway. I don’t know if she’s got the confidence to do that though.

Yes. My own emotional well-being has to be a priority. You are right. My whole life it’s come last. No more!! I have far less emotional energy at the moment so I need to use it wisely. I like the idea of boundaries in the moment. I need to be calm when I see her so I can do this well.

I had to see her this week and I found it really hard not to be snappy - but then that makes ME the problem. Im just so hurt by the emotional blackmail she engaged in around my dads death - and it shows. I try and hide it. But she will have no clue it’s that. Just that I’m a bit grumpy with her. So I’m thinking I might need to let her know I’m feeling that way (once I can do it in a reasonable way).

14blackcrows

I hope your DC is better. I can’t believe your mum is sending you aggressive texts full stop, yet alone when you have all that going on. It sounds so complicated both legally and emotionally. So glad you have got some good advice upthread.

We didn’t cause the bottomless pit of need in our parents. It wasn’t their fault they were treated badly as children. But it was their responsibility to do right by us as children once they’d brought us into the world. It’s not our responsibility to fill the bottomless pit of need either, and we’d never finish either. Because it is just bottomless! So hard to dodge those invitations to feel responsible though! But we are not responsible- they are adults.

@ItsBroughtItAllBackAgain
I had the conversation, I thought it was going well [I am the ever hopeful idiot] I wasn't nasty, just said how they had used me all my life, emotionally abusive, financially abusive, having to referee their fights since I was 6 years old.

I found out in January that both parents made just my 2 siblings executors of the wills and poa it really hurt. They have all been keeping that secret since 2010. Nothing to do with the actual will but the fact both siblings made it clear that I would need to sort out any shit when either parent dies, so I just said if I am not an equal member of the family I will no longer act like one. No more sorting all their shit out, hours every week supporting them both on the phone, hours every day when one in hospital, having my summer holidays and Xmas/new years ruined with their tantrums.

So far so good, they listened, cried, apologized will send me all the paperwork blah blah.

Half an hour later my mum called me and said I was sick in the head and how disgusting it was I could say such things to a frail old lady who had done everything for me!

That was the moment I went NC and blocked my siblings as well. There really is no point, I seriously regret having even tried, laying myself emotionally bare. They just love the drama. If I could take it back and have just gone NC no explanation I would, it is humiliating that they are revelling in the hurt they have caused me. Hope is absolutely crushing.

They honestly believe as raging alcoholics, violence, neglect and humiliating me as child that they did a good job!

No more Mrs nice binkie, at 62 I have finally dropped the rope.

Itsbroughtitallbackagain

You need to let go of any and all residual hope that she will change.

You also have two qualities that your mother completely lacks; empathy and insight. She does not care for the harm that she has caused you, no not a bit. She wants you to care for her in her dotage!. In your initial post you listed two options called I and 2; I'd go for number 2. You do not owe her anything now, let alone a relationship.

re your comment

"I wonder if anyone ever has and it’s gone ok? I just think in the future if DC come to me as adults and say ‘you did xyz when I was growing up and it caused me this kind of pain’ I would be empathic and understanding.

YOU would be empathetic and understanding; practically all toxic parents do not have such qualities. I have been on here a long time and I have not come across anyone who has had that sort of chat with their parent/s that has gone well. To the parents it comes across as a personal attack and so they react accordingly. Its all the, "how can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation".

re your comment:
"I’d explain that I did my best and apologise for hurt caused. I hope I would anyway. I don’t know if she’s got the confidence to do that though"

Again you would apologise but toxic parents would not; they'd blame everyone except themselves and they would sincerely feel they've done nothing wrong. Your mother knows how you feel as well on some level too and does not care. All she cares about is getting her own needs met and by you.

@binkie163 your experience of being excluded from the will resonates. I only found out after my father passed away that I had been excluded. It was upsetting that my parents didn’t tell me earlier. The death of a parent combined with the exclusion left me numb for a while. Most of my childhood and early adult years I was a caring for my mother - she was sick so I was her translator for medical appointments, making bookings and helping my father with odd jobs in his business. It came as a shock when after his death I was told a sibling who lives overseas was the executor because they take better of my parents.

I haven’t had a conversation about how upsetting this was with my mother. I think like you said it is a pointless conversation that would make things worse.

binkie163

Im so sorry Binkie. That sucks. You did the grown up thing. You did your best. That’s exactly what happened to my mum with her mum too. I think the shame of having caused damage as a parent can be unbearable, so it’s defended against with lies, minimising, blaming others and rage. It’s not ok, but it’s not you, it’s them.

I guess no contact isn’t possible for me as I encouraged mum to move here so I have a certain responsibility. I was naive. But it’s done now. I have to live with it.

"I guess no contact isn’t possible for me as I encouraged mum to move here so I have a certain responsibility. I was naive. But it’s done now. I have to live with it".

No you do not have to live with it, not at all. You know differently and you're really under no obligation even now to be her carer.

AttilaTheMeerkat

It’s helpful to have your insight from years on here. Thank you. So sad. I guess I have self confidence. I know who I am, I know I’m flawed, I’m ok with mistakes. You need that to be able face the fact you damaged someone you are supposed to protect. My mum doesn’t have that confidence. I fear you are right and she would be the hand wringing type and I’d be the big bad bully. She’d tell anyone who’d listen just how awful I am I’m sure.

The trouble is that my feelings are leaking out anyway. She made a semi reasonable request of me the other day, which on its own would be fine, but it reminded me of her emotional blackmail around my dads passing, and I got snappy. That makes me the difficult one then. I’m not comfortable with that. I understand it and forgive myself for it, but I still don’t want to behave that way. It’s what her, my sister, my gran do/did. It’s not good communication.

mind you, if I could go back and re-do I’d say, ‘may be, let me think about it’. That may need to be my mantra.

AttilaTheMeerkat

Oooo. Interesting position. Food for thought! I wonder why I feel unable to go NC. I’ll ponder that.

@ItsBroughtItAllBackAgain I would bother trying to do the talking. Try lower contact as it will be bringing you so much stress. You are still a loving caring person but you have to ‘protect’ yourself and set boundaries. I’m trying to do the same in different circumstances.

TBRY

Thank you. It does seem that the consensus is that it’s pointless having ‘the talk’. I think Lower contact is the way forward. I struggle with the guilt but I’ll need to work on that!! Hope things get easier for you soon.

@ItsBroughtItAllBackAgain thank you.

And just remember be kind to yourself, regardless of the type of parent your father was you are grieving. You are allowed to be snappy and to have bad days it’s called grief and it’s awful 💐

You are also allowed to have your mother live closer to you but then need lower contact. You are still closer if there’s an emergency and there must be some sort of groups she can join and go to on certain days.

I am NC with my mother. If siblings pull me up...shes getting forgetful...shes old...ring her. I just say its between me and mum no one else. If i get any crap i just put the phone down.

@14blackcrows - just a quick note to you - get rid of the dog immediately. Animals are a complete no-no around asthmatic children. Seriously. I know what I'm talking about. No animals in the house. Do a deep clean to get rid of all traces of animal residue. This will have a huge impact on your daughter's health and recovery.

Your mother is toxic.

Hi everyone, I find this thread so helpful and would really benefit from some advice if anyone has time to read.

I went NC with narc mother earlier this year and have since received various hoovering gifts and messages. She also showed up uninvited at an event my child was part of (she'd found out about it on social media) and hid (not very well as was clearly seen). My partner told her at that event that she has to back off and give me space. Since then she's sent me a weird letter, not acknowledging anything I feel or with an apology (surprise surprise), but wanting to meet up. She said she interpreted my partner (who told her to back off) as suggesting I might be open to contact!

Anyhow, before we were NC she booked tickets for a play near where I live and planned to take my child and a friend. It's in a couple of weeks. She's forwarded me the e-tickets and said to please let her know if I use them.

I won't be using them of course. I also don't want them to go to waste.

Should I send a firm email back saying no to the tickets and that this is not the space I requested? Or just leave it? Both options make my stomach turn as I don't want to be in contact but I also don't want it to remain open (as that might somehow invite more contact from her & I'll probably stupidly obsess over it until the event date has passed).

I would be so grateful to anyone who has the time to advise.

Thank you.