September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@AttilaTheMeerkat I hope it's all going as well as it all can.

Yeah, the gravestone drama. The first time round we had:

• Someone stealing flowers from the grave. Big performance. Then DP found they had blown away during a storm.
• Our puppy digging up some bulbs. I think they were meant to be for the grave so mega snot and trauma about this.
• Just general constant grave visits which DM had to talk about constantly. She also very pointedly told some relatives within my earshot that I didn't visit.

Second time round, my DS got cremated interred with the grave. We then had:

• Them having to get a new, second headstone (I don't know why they couldn't just add some more lettering apart from the opportunity to generate more angst)
• Constant bitching about how DS' husband hadn't offered to pay for the new headstone although I'm certain they didn't actually speak to him about it, just moaned behind his back.
• DM not asking DS' kids what wording they wanted
• A big fucking performance about how they had to go and pick up the other headstone from a company miles away and organise it themselves.

The second time round I completely refused to get involved with any of it, apart from saying i thought they should have spoken to their grandkids about the lettering. Which went down as about as well as you'd imagine!

@binkie163 - Goodness me. Your situation is SO familiar to me. My mother died last year. Toxic Sister didn’t tell me but got one of her kids to phone one of my kids and start the most spectacular narc triangulation scenario I’ve ever witnessed.

I subsequently found out Toxic Sister had removed me as executor, (like you, I was the “capable” one in the family), and that she and my arsehole BIL had got LPA and taken over executorship without telling anyone, had been living out of the mother’s bank account, and had also removed all grandchildren from the will.

The shit show and narc ramp-up that followed was off the scale. Full-on screaming at me down the phone when I finally managed to get hold of her to find out what the hell was going on. No funeral of course, because then Toxic Sister would have had to risk coming face to face with her nemesis (me).

She had to hire a totally crap lawyer to handle the estate because she is incapable of handling anything. Disposed of all the contents of the mother’s house (including my childhood photographs etc) via a house clearance. And – get this – fucked off on holiday within days of the mother’s death because she “couldn’t cope”, leaving her in a hospital morgue fridge for a month.

These people have absolutely no shame.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thinking of you and hope Nice Aunt is being kept comfortable and well looked after.

These are horror stories about death and funerals. The toxics making it all about them and denying other people’s pain. Absolute horror stories.

@binkie163 & @tonewbeginnings And what a surprise when they claim to be the most organised and take off Power of Attorney, executor roles and funeral arrangers that they can't actually DO IT and then come back to ask the excluded ones to do it. Cheeky bastards.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I'm so sorry to hear about Nice Aunt. The story about petrol money is shocking. What a way to treat your mother. Awful. I'm glad she has some lovely family in her life like you and your DH.

@HoraceGoesBonkers im so sorry for your loss. It's just compounded to hell by shitty behaviour. Telling someone they can’t grieve. NO WORDS.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau im lucky that i can be fast tracked for counselling in Manchester. Thank God. I need it!

@Tbry yes, Sunday was a treat. She kept screaming You’re not my family (all the shit I've done for her FFS) - MM said “Monkey is my family”. Then the classic “you've not given birth so you don't understand anything” Also said to nurse who came across to calm her down as a patient had got up out of bed to leave the ward. In front of nurse “SHE.IS.NOT.MY.FAMILY” pointing at me. I put my coat on and got up “THAT’s RIGHT WALK AWAY” MM left the touching bedside scene “THAT’S RIGHT WALK AWAY. FOLLOW HER LIKE YOU ALWAYS DO.” I was really shaken but unsurprised. On Monday I was in my PJs all day and did hardly any work. I'm freelance. That's it for me now. I'll support MM and I'll sort out social services but I won't see her again. WITCH.

You have inherited your grandmother’s way. She walks beside you everyday.

Report from here.

Oops. Pressed publish too soon.

MM goes round to Hag Towers to make call to hospital for her skin cancer check up as without her permission to talk to them he can't rearrange appointments. Check up is scheduled for 23 Dec. NOT how you want to start the Xmas with Hag screaming.

MM scheduled to go round after 8am. He couldn't give a firm time. Cue kick off last night. She starts ringing him. He doesn't answer. As soon as he's through the door, the screaming starts.
“Why don't you answer your phone?”

She hasn't brushed her teeth or hair since Monday. But she was dressed. In a filthy jumper.

“You can't wear that. It's dirty.”
Carer: “it is dirty.”
“I’ll wear my coat over it.”

WHERE IS HER FUCKING SELF-RESPECT? Total martyrdom. Game playing to drag MM into do care.

Lots of screaming mixed in with the pity party.

“You need to look after me”
“I can't. I have a job.”

She is a fucking nightmare.

Social worker Saint Katie calling MM today. I'm going to chase. Plus meeting with Hag and MM and Slave Son to assess her needs. Katie, she just needs to go into a home.

MM when he got home exhausted “I could visit her twice a week in a home.”

FUCK THAT SHIT.

Thank you all for your kind words re my Nice Aunt (related to me by marriage) , it’s much appreciated.

I was on holiday last week so that has also helped re my wellbeing. Am bloody glad we went at that time.

Mr M and I are going to visit Nice Aunt in hospital tomorrow all being well. Thankfully only 2 visitors are allowed onto this ward so I don’t have to see MiL and hear her competitive chat dressed up as concern for her wellbeing.

Her adult children Dumb and Dumber think that she could return to her home post her hospital stay!!!. 😮Their mother can now barely move!!!. Who says that denial is not a powerful force. I think they do not want to have to sell her home to pay for the care fees because they want her money🤬. After all dumb has charged her petrol money, how much lower can these two further lower themselves?. May the two of them be tormented in hell along with the Hag.

If MM visits her twice weekly in a home he will be hoovered back into her dysfunctional world. He is not going to come off at all
well from such meetings and she could
likely shout at him in such a setting, she really has no shame or filter.

You both need time and permanent space away from the Hag. MM even now perhaps seeks her approval and could well
hope even now she will change and say sorry to him. Sadly she will not change and MM has to let go of any residual hope for she to change.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
That is the kicker that is so cruel, we always hope eventually that they will apologize, well not even apologize really, just say thank you occasionally and recognize how much we do for them, even though they never cared for us as children.
There lies madness 😥
They never say thank you and keep abusing.
I tried LC for a long time but it just didnt work for me, it kept the guilt and anxiety going, it really is sometimes easier to sacrifice yourself and just do their bidding if not strong enough to walk away.
The freedom I felt from January NC of course now my anxiety is back as I am in weak enabler father orbit. Not like the shit I had with mum but I was living in peace. I can now feel anger at the shit I told them would happen, is indeed happening but of course he wants help now....
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH

@MonkeyfromManchester sorry I keep making silly suggestions but I’m so keen to help! I know both from reading and experience that it’s a horrible idea to confront a narc but could a medical or therapeutic professional be involved in a face-to-face talk where you basically tell the Hag what’s what?

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau GP on Monday, social worker this PM. If she continues like this - she will - it'll be care home.

@binkie163 i feel your pain.

@MonkeyfromManchester i was more envisioning “you’re a selfish, entitled brat who nobody should be expected to look after, don’t expect any visits in the care home and by the way time to face the harm you did to your son” :S

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau god, i would love to say that. Even better if a Greek chorus could do it. BTW your suggestions are really helpful. Hope you and the kitty are OK.

@AttilaTheMeerkat i hope your aunt is being well looked after in hospital. Yep, tel visitors rule is really helpful so you don't have to see The Terrible Trio. God, the cheek of her children.

@binkie163 OF COURSE your dad wants help. He won't see that his behaviour has impacted on your good will.

@AttilaTheMeerkat again, yep, he can't get sucked back in. I think he was drunk when he said that. I hope so. It's not happening on my watch. Hag will never change and behaviour has actually got worse over the past three weeks.

The social worker phoned to say she was going over to Hag Towers for 4.30pm. MM didn't even tell Hag yesterday that this meeting was being set up as it will lead to thousands of angry screaming calls. He told her at 4pm. She's gone ballistic. I keep thinking weak heart, weak heart…WITCH.

@MonkeyfromManchester I wouldn't warn her of visits next time, let SW catch her unawares in her full filth and self neglect. The shock could be beneficial to her weak heart. Plus you won't get screaming calls.

@binkie163 i would be VERY surprised if she'd kept on her going out clothes complete with disgusting jumper on as she will have changed into equally foul night attire. She’ll be sat there looking grim. If she isn't, she's even more cunning than I thought.

@MonkeyfromManchester i admit that latest suggestion was more from vicarious ambition than actual practicality, because it wouldn’t end well probably. But I’d love the idea of Hag being confronted by her own own awfulness by those who have been close to her AND disinterested professionals.

Cat and I are fine (by the standards of abuse survivors fine). The effect of seeing a little animal who I can’t pretend with charging towards me from a garden away or dashing in from her trips out to chat or curl up with me (we don’t actually chat, we meow back and forth but she seems to like telling me about whatever she’s telling me about) is absolutely inestimable. The only side effect is I get hugely anxious when she’s not right next to me in case she dies or adopts a new family. She spent most of the day on the bed with me (nasty vomiting virus for me, not for the cat) or dashing in and out to meow for me. She’s out right now though and my chest feels super tight worrying about what might happen to her.

@MonkeyfromManchester thats awful, I know I don’t know you but sending good vibes to you and your partner. He needs to distance himself as much as possible from all of this as visits and phone calls are too much for him to have to do.

As for all the funeral/grave/will things so very sorry for everyone. So far I am yet to experience too much of this thankfully , I have lost all the grandparents and great aunts/uncles but only attended both of my grandmothers funerals. One was as a teenager, the way I was told about the passing was to have yelled at me that she’s died and it’s my fault. I presume as an adult it was grief related but haunts me still. The rest of it all is a blur tbh. My other grandmother died much later and was cremated. So no grave to visit, even if there was I’m not religious and I can remember them and chat to them sometimes in my mind and see nature and think of them. So I think maybe it’s easier without the grave. I am anticipating in a couple of decades time for it to be dire though as my siblings and half siblings already don’t speak to me. I will just remember I don’t need to participate in the drama and stay back from it all and grieve in the privacy of my own home and as for the will aspect there is no chance I will inherit anything so once again will not get involved.

Was hoping to read that everyone’s situations have improved but sadly I think we are all having a tough time at the moment. I’ve had a really low, depressing week so far. Two very stressful calls with one parent both for a hour where I was just trying to have a nice chat for ten minutes and I just get off the phone upset and stay upset. Nagging me about overspending (I’ve cut my Christmas budget to 1/3 and not doing any of the little things that help me get through it all to save money) in one call and in the other telling me off nastily for getting my grocery shop and wasting all that money…I spent £60 for the weeks food and cleaning products. Honestly it’s such hard work at times 😓

And the dreaded Christmas got mentioned over and over I repeated that yes I will speak to my parent on the day if they are free (normally they are with other siblings so not free) but then my phones are being turned off as nobody ever calls anyway and the anxiety that they might call is too much to deal with, especially as I just want a nice quiet relaxing day with my DP. So I’m now once again being seen by my parent as the difficult daughter causing all the rifts with the siblings even though I’m the one excluded. I’ve sent everyone’s presents very very early, all have arrived as I can see the tracking, no thank you obviously. So I’m reminding myself my boundaries are in place for a reason and I know my nieces and nephews will all have gifts from me and to now stop thinking about it all. So hard to do though. Wish there was a handbook for these situations.

@AttilaTheMeerkat try to enjoy your time with the nice aunt. At least you and your husband can visit without the others being there. Your nice aunt will really appreciate it as she knows you both care.

@tbry I’m very lucky with my sparkly little snow leopard and boyfriend (different people lol). But some part of me wishes I’d taken up the offer to be sectioned when it was given months ago. This time of year is horrible however you look at it.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I know it is. I’ve coped really well the last few Decembers and now I’m not. Still trying for the sake of the rest of my household as I’m not going to be the person ruining their Christmas but I’m either feeling numb, crying or anxious not sure which is worse currently.

As for you focus on yourself, your health and happiness, your boyfriend and your kitten. Those are big positive lovely things. Little glimmers of joy can get you through the crappiest of times.

I wanted to ask this thread about helping a child with a narcissistic parent, specifically a father.

We are already divorced, and she does not see him very much, every other weekend.

If there are resources that may help then I would be really grateful. I can see she is suffering from the contact but don't have much faith ih the family court (did that before and barely survived). I am arranging a counsellor.

And for those of you who survived such a parent, if there is any help in particular a non narcissistic parent could give, I would be grateful to hear it.

Try the forum on the Outofthefog website. There’s specific areas there for narcissism from parents or siblings or family members.

There’s a bit there on the outofthefog website abt co-parenting with a narcissist. I’ve just had a look

I grew up with a parent like this and to be honest it was awful I kept out of their way as much as possible and preferred school to home (until they sabotaged school for me but that’s another story) my other parent turned a blind eye and did nothing to support or help me I used to think he didn’t know but as an adult I realise that he did but was easier if I bore the brunt not him. You can’t change them but you can support and listen to your child and provide them with a safe space xx

@bombastix I don’t have any specific advice but from personal experience it can affect a kid’s self esteem, self worth and confidence - especially around how to trust themselves and others. Whatever you can do to buffer these things would help. Also, I know it is probably complicated but the fact that you are aware and can reduce the impact is great.

Thank you.

I feel guilt that I could get a divorce and be free but the child must suffer because of that because this man is so inadequate. If I could arrange no contact I would.

I hope you all have a good Christmas. Often this is a time for narc drama so I know it will not be easy for many of you.

@bombastix That's a horrible situation for you to be in. My ex "weaponised" contact time (he was, and remains, a full-on sociopathic narc). Trying to protect your child/ren from a parent like that is a nightmare. The damage they do is awful.

In my case, my ex was using the children to get at me, and when I shut down any contact with me and insisted it went through a third party, he went nuclear and started dragging me into through the courts. I stood my ground and eventually he gave up as he was not getting the narc supply.

I stopped co-operating, and then refused to force the children to see him. Another court battle ensued. It was awful, but I would have done anything to protect my kids. Contact eventually stopped, thank god.