September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@MonkeyfromManchester thanks. Unfortunately I’ve been on psych wards enough to have heard over and over that PTSD means your body literally thinks you’re going to die in triggering situations. And it does pass on to those around you. As well as worrying about MM and picking up on his anxiety, you’re actually getting it in the neck from the Hag yourself (which is another piece of evidence that she’s truly out of control, most narcs at least try to cover it up.)

Re the alcohol, I was posting after my night meds last night - always a bad idea, I get a bit hazy. Sorry if I phrased it harshly or otherwise objectionably. However, I hadn’t been a drinker for my whole life until I started self-medicating with wine following a nasty break-up. Particularly if you’re just having a glass or two and not bothering anyone or driving, it can be really difficult to see the downside. It’s such a good easy way to get through a bad moment and it’s so socially encouraged that it’s a horribly easy trap to fall into. I’m sure you know all this but you DO need a crutch to get you through this moment, and your GP is probably best placed to help you with that. If you can afford it, as well as MM’s therapy could you get counselling?

As a band-aid for a few days, medicated Nytol might help you feel calmer in the evenings.

Hi ladies so sorry to read all the news from everyone. Just wish some of ur was positive for one of us at least 😰

As for the food stuff not related to my toxic family but my DPs mum. My MIL ( who despises me most of the time) ‘plays’ my partner, she and his sister have been doing it since the moment I met them. I have seen and heard her do it loads of times nearly always to do with her health (which as far as I’m concerned is better than mine as she works FT but if you listened to her you’d think she’s dying).

Anyway I digress but a few years ago we had to house her temporarily…..one of the worst decisions of my entire life TBH and our relationship is still suffering from it truth be told. Whilst here she was refusing to eat, so going say 3-4 days with nothing. Anything I cooked was treated like it was poison. Even I was sucked in as I was worried she’d pass out but she could manage the drinking and then I realised she could manage the large chocolate bars in her car etc etc etc. So yes completely unhealthy but she was actually eating. So it was just all play acting.

To cut a long story short, as it’s not actually my family and my issues, we had to actually ask her to leave as her behaviour was that awful. (And six months later she was housed in the same town as us….she is not from here she was able to use us and our address on the forms to be housed by the council so cunning and manipulative too).

Anyway reading all of this, MIL is only in her 60s, and seeing how she plays my DP even though I’ve explained what shes doing and how to deal with it I’m now worried this will be us in 15years time. I can’t deal with that after my own family crap for 50years. I am currently not in contact with her, partner has Christmas presents for her from us but he will have to take them himself. I’m actually managing to set boundaries when it comes to my IL’s which is a major step for me.

Last year she spent the whole of Christmas saying she wanted to come around, we ended up inviting her every day apart from Xmas day she refused even though she was asking to come to drop off presents (very strange as for a decade we’ve not even been sent a card) and my DP finally took hers around to her in the NY. And we got an unwrapped gift in a carrier which I don’t think she even bought for us 😂…so once again it was a ploy. So I’ve not spoken to her since as I’m not playing these games. She can visit anytime she wants if she wants to be my friend but if not I’m not interested…. After calling me a slut (I was a lone parent previously) and far worse things whilst she lived with us in the house that I own 50% of I think I am being generous. Nightmare MIL’s 🤬

Sorry to hear that. 💐

Thanks Tbry. I do wonder how this is all going to play out but I am aware that her funeral service will be one for the diary. Mil will certainly be doing her competitive grieving then telling all and sundry how close she and her sister were (in reality there’s more than 10 years difference in ages and they have not ever been close). Nice aunt’s late h had the measure of mil and he couldn’t stand her.

@MonkeyfromManchester nothing I can say to help but I do hope your partner is OK. Like him I have PTSD (for both of us it’s probably CPTSD as from numerous traumatic experiences) so I really do hope he’s alright. I can’t even possibly explain how horrific it is to anyone without it, when the flashbacks and nightmares start back up it completely spirals out of control.

So if possible he needs a few hours per day , phone switched off, doing the things that calm him. So a hobby or some music maybe.

What is his therapist doing to help? My therapy just taught me ways to think differently and completely remove myself from situations that could do me some harm….none of which would be any help in your partners current situation.

My partner would 100% not be able to help me with these things and even possibly make it worse for me, not intentionally. So also sending good vibes to you 💐

@AttilaTheMeerkat I'm very sorry to hear that. Performative worrying there's NOTHING like. It must always be about the narcs.

Yes, I LOVE Katie.

So awful when it’s the nice relations….makes the rest of it/them seem even worse. In your ‘family’ set up is the MIL the main player?

Once my dear grandmothers had passed and great uncle and aunts it was like the end of an era for me. My grandmother was my best friend throughout my childhood and without her and the pets I’d never have made it, still miss her every single day and get sad. But then I remember the little sayings, I think she was instilling coping mechanisms in me without me realising to help me cope in the future.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. I'm going to give my GP a ring and I can self-refer for NHS counselling because of my bipolar. I feel really anxious. The main thing is making sure MM stays calm as he's more triggered than by the loon. No offence taken Re wine. I'm going to have an early night with no wine tonight. Xxx

@Tbry oh god I hear you. I HEAR YOU. If you were at starvation’s door you wouldn't be working or driving,would you? Because these freaks are stuck in toddler mood, the behaviour is EXACTLY the same: tantrums and drama over food. The Hag actually threw herself on the floor and rolled around once.

Good on you on getting her out - keep her out! - and the boundaries. You are absolutely right to be on your guard. They do NOT age well. The thing with these creatures is they will never be your friend. The Hag has held my hand and said what a lovely, lovely, kind person I am but it's been empty, just getting me on side. The hand holding was BEFORE Xmas 2019 when this shit really ramped up. It's not real.

The slut comment. 😡

Considering how hellish it is, he's managing OK. NOT like across his life time. His therapist has worked wonders for his CPTSD and he's gone from hiding his childhood - internalising it - to speaking honestlu about how vile it was. He's very clear that it was abusive and cruel. He vocalises it and assertive with the Hag. He's got his eyes open more to the manipulation.

His therapist has said he's got choices over NC or LC. He's certainly saying that he can't help her because of the way she behaves. The behaviour is never going to change so the help is going to disappear. I think her attacking me (again - it's not the first time) on Sunday has flipped another switch in his brain.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes, the funeral. Choice narc occasion. Take care xxx

Please can we have three cheers for MM? That’s amazing progress.

@MonkeyfromManchester that sounds like a solid plan, and I’m sure you’re used to the NHS system by the sounds of things. The only one thing to be wary of is the dreaded - I don’t even know what to call it, but “let’s not focus on the actual problem before we’ve addressed these 500 other problems”. It might be worth looking into free or affordable sources of counselling which might be available straight away even if it’s just to get you through this really pressured bit. Just to give you an idea about the current accessibility of NHS MH services, I was referred to the eating disorder service two months ago. My appointment is next April and that’s just for assessment and triage. I was told to take myself straight to the mental hospital nearly four months ago and check myself in by a psychiatrist who was born overseas and recently arrived. My support worker actually laughed at the idea that would work.

MIL has kept in touch with the eldest son of Nice Aunt over the years (as a suck up too she sends him and his wife birthday and wedding anniversary much to Nice Aunt's dismay). MIL has positioned herself as gatekeeper yet again/main player in the drama that no doubt will make her feel even more puffed up and thus even more insufferable than she usually is.

My H who likes most people cannot stand Nice Aunt's sons for good reason - one of which amongst many being her eldest son asked his mother the affor mentioned Nice Aunt for petrol money to cover the cost of driving to her hospital appointment!.

Narcs like to make themselves look good and MIL is very much a, "Aren't I a good girl daddy?" whilst sneering at her lowly sister.

Tbry - am so sorry to read about your grandmother. Mine was very similar to how you describe and even though many years have passed since her death some pain at her passing still lingers. I've never felt quite the same since.

Sorry, I’ve been clicking on the wrong notifications so I’ve lost track vaguely of the posts which aren’t Monkey’s, where I tend to be tagged.

Deaths are so fraught in narc families. Occasions for extremely elaborate grieving by the narc(s), triangulation, competitive tributes and so on. I think the best solution (best of a bad bunch as we can’t exclude the narcs) is to make our love clear to our close ones as much as possible, and during the funeral keep a low profile and let them get on with their theatrics. It’s terribly hard. My mother mourned “her” cat for a year and threw herself on the ground at the vet’s in tears when he was PTS after eighteen years. I said I was worried about Velvet dying the other day and she said “no problem, we’ll just get another one”. I know these are pets not people but it’s a good counterexample. And there are no other Velvets. The little darling has made me feel life is worth living several times today - she even turned her nose up at Dreamies in favour of a little cuddle! I’ve loved most of the other pets we’ve had - well, all of them, but Velvet is in a different league. Anyway, the point being, to narcs all that matters is themselves. Even the death of a beloved family member will be turned into attention seeking.

Also want to say I’m so sorry for the prospective losses for everyone. I know those are such… pastel words but it’s an awful thing to know it’s imminent.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I can relate to the contrast narcissists display when they seem distraught at someone's dead/ fatal news followed by complete unsympathetic behavior. I have seem this many times with relatives, pets etc. They do their theatricals and they are done. Back to dismissing anyone's actual grieving and even mocking them.
Your cat sounds lovely xx

@MonkeyfromManchester attacking you on Sunday??? I think I’ve missed some of the posts. Hope you are OK now.

@AttilaTheMeerkat your poor nice aunt with a sister like that and a son too. Who on earth asks for fuel money for a hospital appointment!!! How these sorts of people exist is just beyond me sometimes. Anything I would personally do to help a stranger and then these sorts of ‘nasties’ treat decent people like that.

As for my grandma thank you. She was the cleverest person I’ve ever met in many ways. She used to take me into town with her on the bus and we’d go to talk to the homeless people, some probably suffering from substance abuse. We would then go and buy birdseed and feed all the wild birds. I was very little and we always did this sort of thing together. So taught me to never look down at or judge anyone, always to help or at least speak to people as that could be you one day and that animals and nature come first. My grandma, I now realise as an adult had a really tough life, so in lots of small ways she was teaching me how to survive if I do to (probably from witnessing my terrible home life). So on the tough days I try to think and do what my grandma would do.

I generally don't do funerals but wanted to go to my aunt's one as I loved her more than my mum, always wished she had been my mum.
So mums sisters funeral, mum kicked off as she wasn't in lead car, front of service, it was organized by my cousin's. They also didn't want my mum at the lunch after. They asked me to get her to leave after service. It was no secret my aunt and uncles divorce was partly due to my mums affair with uncle, so to see mum flirting [in her 70's] with my uncle in front of his new wife nearly ended in mum getting a punch in the face.
For weeks mum complained how she had been sidelined at funeral....no fucking shame
I hope in heaven my beautiful aunt kicks the shit out of my mum.

Oh @Tbry, that’s both lovely and awful. If you’re a similar age to me, your grandmother will have been from the generation where silent stoicism and obedience was almost the only way to survive in a nasty home environment and it’s a sign of love when they try to pass on their coping mechanisms to you. My nana used occasionally to extract me from days-long screaming matches between my parents (I would try to get between them to absolutely no avail and get extremely distressed for days at a time, one of my biggest PTSD triggers is others arguing) and she would then take me to feed the ducks/give me some chocolate/watch some forbidden television, all the while ignoring the fact that anything had happened.
Your nana sounds absolutely lovely and really focused on the needs of others above herself, and what she taught you by example by ministering for the homeless and caring for animals was really priceless. I’m glad for all the wonderful nanas out there (the Hags of this world - forgive me if I’m wrong but I think she’s nana age - are a different story).

@binkie163 I actually don’t have words for that, except it’s depressingly familiar and I have no idea how these people’s brain’s work. Also, if you catch my drift, if there is an afterlife your aunt is unlikely to be in the same bit as your mother to kick her arse.

Anyway tonight I am gloating my arse off 😀
Karma has come round swift and hard.
My dad is very upset today as sister has given massive list of shit dad needs to do regarding all the paperwork for mums end admin death certificates, funeral etc, he is overwhelmed doesn't know where to start.

The reason for massive argument in January was my gently asking parents that we needed to talk about paperwork and final wishes. Both refused and then it came out sister and brother in charge, POA and executor since 2010 😮😮 I won't lie I was shocked and deeply hurt to be left out and lied to.
I told parents it would be a shit show with them in charge, both are useless, I am the fixer in the family. A lot of unpleasantness followed, I went NC immediately as last straw.

Well that shit show has started 😂 I shouldn't laugh but I said to dad bet you wish you had listened in January and not told massive lies. He has no idea how to access any info, mum never kept paperwork, he doesn't even have basic info. I said sister is executor not you, that is what she fought for and if she didn't bother getting shit in order more fool her. I would have had it all buttoned down.

Obviously I am being asked now if I can help.....errr no, for some reason I wasn't trusted or included and have been lied to for years. I said sister/him must legally notify DWP & private pension [which incidentally means mum was commiting fraud for free carers as hadn't declared independent income]

Those who laugh last laugh longest.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you, my grandma was and always will be my best friend and my hero. Exactly the sort of person I try to be.

@binkie163 regarding your aunts funeral….that truly is awful. Your mum had an affair with her sisters husband and then years later thinks her children would want her at her funeral. I have no words.

@binkie163 I think this type of chaos with POA etc. is probably common in families with narcs. Having gone through a similar experience where the golden child in my family was entrusted in all roles when our father passed away. I was told by the golden child the day before the funeral that she is handling everything as she’s been the one closest to our mother and cares for her the most. It was a lot to take in after his death and since I had sacrificed so much of my childhood on helping my mother. But in hindsight it was also liberating - I gave myself permission to let go of obligation and guilt more than I ever had before.

It also validated my feelings as whenever I mentioned that my sister got treated differently to me I was made out to be the weird one with issues. I was made to feel like I’m inventing things. My sister lives abroad on a different continent so the fact that she was the only person entrusted by my parents confirmed to me that I hadn’t been making things up in my head. I remember telling my therapist what had happened and she was actually speechless.

As you call it - karma came into play. My sister hasn’t managed to do much in terms of my dad’s will and financial matters. In a large part due to being on a different time zone and not having any contacts or people she can get recommendations from in this country. Also because my brothers have been involved and complicating matters. My mother seems content to have all this drama going on. She will tell me about it when I visit to which I just nod and say ‘ok’.

On the one hand it was extremely hurtful but on the other hand I wouldn’t want to be caught up in all the drama and chaos my mum and siblings have been in for the past 4 years since my father passed away.

I'm reading the comments about funerals and bereavements with interest. I've had two siblings die and I have absolutely no doubt that was really terrible for DM.

The first one when when I was mid teens and couldn't just move out. I got stuck in the middle of her grief rituals which were all encompassing and if I tried to say I was finding it difficult she'd scream at me. I remember once telling my Dad I was upset and Dad spoke to her, so she waited and cornered me in the bathroom and shouted at me. It was horrendous. There was also endless stupid drama about the gravestone. I was 14/15 and it was awful to deal with.

The second one I was older and my sibling died of alcoholism. After she died DM started asking me if she thought she should hire her own funeral director (erm, no, DS had people closer to her who were obviously going to organise it). Then when I did a memory book for my DS' kids to give them at the memorial, which she knew about, she turned up with her own memory book and gave copies to everyone, which she hadn't mentioned to me at all. The memory book had been important to me because I felt like I'd never been able to have my own space to grieve my first sibling :(

Sorry if I've posted some of this before, I'm finding it difficult to read the thread to see what I have and haven't mentioned.

Then we had another round of shit about the grave because my siblings are interred together; she kept trying to create a drama about the headstone and who was paying, which I just ignored.

I never go to the graveside and the amount of absolute stupid drama we've had about it, I wish my siblings were buried at sea or shot into space or similar!

I've had an initial appointment with a counsellor who has been very good and have another couple lined up.

I think it's complex in that it's natural to feel sympathy for DM and want to help her but the bereavements get used as justification for some pretty terrible behaviour.

Horace

Am so sorry to read about your late siblings. Being the age you were too when your first sibling passed away was very hard and your mother did not make things any easier. She made their deaths all about her and bereavements are indeed used by toxic people generally to justify all sorts of terrible behaviour.

I nodded wryly to myself at this part:
"There was also endless stupid drama about the gravestone".

We had this too for Mr Meerkat's father. Narcissistic MIL made his terminal illness and death all about her as well and repeatedly phoned DH whilst he was working to discuss whether there should be gold or silver lettering on the headstone. I ignored her self made drama swirling around. And has she been back to his gravesite since; only once to my direct knowledge. Not to mention the rewriting of history; she and her H could not stand the sight of each other in reality but you would not know that when she talks wistfully about him now.

Nice Aunt (MIL's sister) is not on an actual ward yet; she's being placed in some side room. MIL also managed to get in some comment about she being in there before now too. Well she has but not for many years now so her knowledge is out of date. It never fails to amaze me how narcissistic people try and make other people's hospital stays and funerals all about them as well as trying to puff themselves up by being the gatekeepers of information. I swear they live for such occasions. I am now waiting to see how she will travel to hospital; I have suggested she take a taxi because we will go there on the bus. I have no wish whatsoever to drive to hers and ferry her around.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I am obviously not apprised of all the details of Nice Aunt’s hospital stay, but being in a side room is basically the equivalent of being warded rather than a precursor. There are lots of reasons it could have happened including a shortage of ward beds or an exceptional need for privacy. Side rooms tend to be part of wards. She’s probably got that for as long as she needs and will be having all the usual attention: food, obs etc. Your Mil probably fell into one of the categories I’ve mentioned: I’ve been placed in side rooms based on lack of space (I was overjoyed at first but then discovered that the lights didn’t turn off in the side room) and fear of contagion when my pancreas first started malfunctioning. Nice Aunt can request ward space though, hospital staff are generally up for some reshuffling.

Thanks Cecile, much appreciated. Nice Aunt was on a trolley in a corridor before they moved her into this room, its all due to a lack of beds.