September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

I don't deny how awful it is. I have already been to court once, it was brutal. I could not prove that he was narcissistic and he evaded a psychological assessment.

One day it will be no. I would support that but I must protect this one from getting messed up before that happens so she can one day say no. I am frightened that he will mess her up and she will not be able to do it.

@bombastix I am similar to @Shortbread49 with the added benefit of both parents were alcoholics. The anxiety, walking on eggshells and neglect stays with you for life, emotional pain is too much for me to face in counseling. I didn't have anyone I could talk to about it, tbh had anyone said anything to my parents I wouldnt have been safe. I turned out ok, happy as much as adult children of narcissists can be and successful in my career, happily married but it's always there, the terror of insecurity.
Support your child and be honest about the shit and ask the school for counseling and pastoral care as well. It's a shit place for kid to be, they don't understand the manipulation and tactics xxx

@Qualityh20 so sorry to hear that. I know this may be controversial but counselling per se doesn’t help everyone. It’s a weird analogy but I have never found Samaritans helpful at all - they are there to listen (when you don’t get a ringing tone for ten minutes) but they don’t give feedback or really react when you really need someone to relate to you. Counsellors are quite similar - they’re there to say “oh no poor you”. Would it be worth pursuing CBT, DBT or another therapy more focussed on gaining skills than your past experiences? I’m sure you’re coping fantastically but it still might have benefits for your health and happiness.

Do you mind if I also ask something that quite frankly comes from one of my biggest insecurities? Re the alcoholism. There’s a chapter in Why Does He Do That which talks about how abusers can drink to justify their abuse or to give themselves Dutch courage to do abhorrent things. I pretty much had alcohol forced on me by my family - on a holiday in my mid-twenties my much bigger and already tipsy mother literally cornered me and forced me to drink a glass of wine because I was sad due to my boyfriend having had to leave - but apart from that barely drank until slightly before lockdown, at which point I slid into full-blown alcoholism to the point where I’ve managed to do more damage to my body in four years than my heavy-drinking grandad has done in sixty years. I tend to want to curl up and go to sleep when I’m drunk and can honestly say from repeated questions to people who have been with me when drunk that I don’t don’t tend to commit harmful actions (this is all in present tense but I’m going to hastily point out I don’t GET drunk anymore). Due to the totality of my mental health issues, I’m still child-free. Does being an alcoholic alone make me a bad person, though? Sorry it’s so lengthy and really apologise if it’s unwittingly triggered you. I tend to take others’ sins on my shoulders and it’s heartbreaking to hear about the damage others have suffered as well due to alcoholism and abuse issues happening at the same time.

@Tbry that's a truly awful experience of grief. AWFUL. Yes, Xmas is grim. It's the aniticpation that something awful will happen. High anxiety. We are switching off at Xmas. Hugs to you.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau cats are so sensitive. They get bonded to good people, not toxics given a choice.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau not all alcoholics are abusive arseholes or bad people. It sounds like you are in recovery from alcoholism, yes it can ravage a body, my mother nearly ended up sectioned. I don't drink as I didn't want to become the mess my parents were, I also avoid needy, attention seeking drunks in social situations. I have friends who are heavy drinkers who are great fun, not all drinkers lose control.

I CANNOT FUCKING COPE WITH THE HAG.

MM, surprise, surprise, had two nightmares last night. PTSD is back with avegeance. I've not slept. I'm exhausted.

She has phoned 17 times today. MM has picked up the calls. WTAF.

he needs to just cut off contact when her skin cancer appointment on 23 Dec. He says he's going to do this it's his idea.

The social worker is from the hospital & for 4 - 6 weeks and can't confirm whether or when community social worker will be allocated.

I'm going to my GP next week and so is MM.

@MonkeyfromManchester thats the best course of action in the circumstances. Is there any way you can avoid her til you’ve seen the respective GPs?

So very sorry to read this Monkey. Hope you get somewhere with the GP, the GP may write a stiffly worded letter to adult social care re the effects on your mental health because of the Hag.

Nice Aunt is finally in a ward bay rather than in a corridor!. She’s also been fed and washed. Now we wait to see what dumb and dumber decide, dumb even now wants a woman to come in to his mother’s house to do care but she is well beyond that stage. These people have no conscience.

Hi @AttilaTheMeerkat & @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. I had a meltdown.

MM phoned the Hag and said that he won’t have any more calls from her this weekend as she constantly shouts.

He told her he’s switching his phone until Sun night when he will ring to make arrangements for the GP appointment on Monday.

she started screaming which underlines the point and then “who will I ring? Who will I speak to?”

the speaking clock - is that even a thing anymore? - for all I care. The phone is now off.

the med appointments are GP - Mon - diabetic eye clinic - Wed - skin cancer 23 Dec. Then that’s it. Social workers deal after Xmas.

she’s coming nowhere near us at Xmas. She’s made it clear that I’m not her family so she’s not invited to spend any time with mine. Not going out with her on NYD. She can just rot.

MM does get it and he’s edging to no contact as there is no meaningful communication.

he’s told Slave Son that he can ring me in
an absolute emergency. Under no circumstances does she have my number and if she is involved in any conversation with me i will immediately hang up and I will switch my phone off.

yes, strongly worded letter going to social services. I’m not afraid to escalate it either,

ENOUGH.

@AttilaTheMeerkat the sudden interest in Nice Aunt by her kids is so cynical. It’s totally about money. How vile. I’m really glad you are with her. She must really appreciate that.

thanks, ladies xxx

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I just want to send you a virtual hug. I'm sorry about the alcoholism. I don't drink only little and in social occasions (never more than 2 glasses). I don't drink because I can really feel the damage in my body. You can't sleep well. You can't concentrate the next day. I already feel in depressed mode if I have a third glass. I like doing sports and go outdoors as much as I can. It's a lifesaver for mental health. Please try going out and go for a walk and be present. Listen to the wind. Feel the leaves under your feet. Look at the color of the sky. Have a cup of tea afterwards. Its fantastic.
Alcohol does not make you a bad person but it does destroy you. And you are worth so much more.
@MonkeyfromManchester you are getting into the orbit of the narcissit. When you sleep badly. Have nightmares and dread every call. I so know the feeling. Had a bad few days thanks to a horrible phone call with my own mother- I don't even want to expand on it but I lost it. I really dread her. I thought about you and everyone here. We are not alone. I am hoping from your own MH that The Hag doesn't have much time left.

@MonkeyfromManchester is it weird to want to congratulate you for a (minor) rant to get it off your chest? You’re making all the right decisions in my view. You and MM first. Hag has no divine right to talk your ear off.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I'm glad your lovely aunt is not in a corridor any more but in a ward. Keeping my fingers crossed for you and her xx

@girlswillbegirls thank you so much for your kind words. For the first time I have support workers and a psychologist willing to tackle the root causes alongside all my coping mechanisms and I’m due a stay in a ward which can cope with all of it, hopefully in not too long a time. I’m really grateful for your compassion.

I’m really sorry to address you like this but my phone is doing a weird glitch where it deletes the text if I scroll up, so Nice Aunt Person, also glad she’s on a ward. Hopefully she’s getting biscuits, hot drinks and (my favourite) ice while making some impromptu friendships!

@MonkeyfromManchester 17 fecking times 😡LC didn't work for me and it isn't really working for you, it leaves the door permanently open. You know she will keep it up, she will get worse because she wants her own way. Maybe the Xmas week at your mum's NC phones off for 7 days get a tiny bit of peace. Unless the cunt gets a taxi to mummy monkeys.
My dad is unknowingly stressing my young niece, I'm not sure he realizes doing his tiny online weekly shop could be done twice a month. Its time consuming, he doesn't WhatsApp [obvs] so it is 2-3 weekly phone calls just for a small shop of ready freezer meals. She has a ft job and family, it's so difficult, once you offer to do something to help out of kindness it immediately becomes relied on. She doesn't want to upset him or seem mean so I have said I will talk to him. Retired oldies have all the time in the world and just seem oblivious.

@girlswillbegirls I'm sorry to hear about your mother. Those calls throw you completely off balance. Hugs.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau not weird at all. As we say up North, she can fucking think on. She will be more furious than usual. But fuck it. I'm glad you're getting support.

@binkie163 that really made me laugh. Yep, phone off over Xmas. She may try mummy monkey but I think short shrift there as my mum is appalled by her behaviour. If she arrived in a taxi, it would be a long dip in the pond. She's too frail now. THANK GOD.

Oh, yes, the small favour becomes a way in. Your poor niece. They really get worse with age. Truly dr adful people.

Hugs to all. Xxx

Hope everyone has a nicer weekend than our weeks have sounded.

@MonkeyfromManchester keep the phones off 🤞🏾. Your partner needs to be able to sleep, with PTSD the nightmares and the flashbacks (I call them daymares as you are awake but it’s like you are in a nightmare) start taking over. I’ve been struggling with a decent sleep pattern for 30years now, get it under control and things calm down and then something else triggers it all again. I’d actually say they aren’t nightmares but that’s what the ‘experts’ call them as my standard nightmares are nothing like the other ones.

@binkie163 nothing to do with the toxic stuff but if your niece is doing online mini shops once a week the very easiest way is to have two sets one for every other week. So that covers different meals for a whole fortnight, milk , bread the real basics and then your father can have a print out of what’s coming that week. Then just one phone call if something needs to be added. Will really make it easier for her.

@Tbry I differentiate between nightmares, real-life related/flashback nightmares and night terrors. The first are pretty bearable and I actually went through a protracted phase of watching horror just to put some nasty images in my own head to push out the ones which would distress me even more. The second are awful - poison my whole day, often so realistic I’ll have to ask someone to verify they’re not true. The third are actually easier on me because I tend not to remember them clearly but I’ve screamed in my sleep, sleepwalked, fought my beloved boyfriend etc (and no, I’m not exaggerating the screaming in my sleep, our house is fairly large and it fetched my slightly deaf parents from the other end). Anything can set them off and they’re terrifying.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau sorry to hear that.

Mine are all related to past trauma and DV sort of things from my mid teens to my late 20s. One memory/dream/nightmare/flashback/ whatever it is called starts it off and then there’s a thousand others waiting to take over.

Was never given terminology for it all until a few years ago when it was finally called PTSD. When I first sought help in my early 20s there was no help available.

I then realised from my therapy a couple of years ago that it still all links back to my childhood as well as mixed in with that stuff I get negative thoughts about when I was a child too. Just horrible, if I could just somehow stop it then the other bad memories would not also invade my mind.

My therapy was only for agoraphobia style problems and anxiety (which I developed whilst waiting over three years for therapy for the PTSD after having a huge breakdown and the worst depression of my life). I then was not offered any treatment for the PTSD…..they implied if I have dealt with it this long alone I will be OK 🤷‍♀️.

@Tbry I’m sorry to hear that - some of it is life just not being fair (timescale) which doesn’t make it not suck, and some sounds like at the very least clumsy therapy. Are you getting help at the moment?

Wow, hi everyone! I've always noticed the title of this thread and never clicked in until now. I'm in tears reading it all, but have some sense of comfort in knowing I'm not the only one.
@AttilaTheMeerkat your responses on other threads I've read over the times have always stood out as wise and helpful, hi 👋
I have been NC with my mother over 15 years except for a some brief phone contact 6 years ago regarding a relative, but that waa really yucky and I stop then again too. I've had a low contact relationship with my dad for around the same but havent really spoken in a few years now....this time of year brings up the debate in my head of whether I should. I often wonder if I will feel regretful when they eventually pass, but I can't muster up much so far. I have an older son who lives with his partner and 2 younger sons who live with me at home. It's such a difficult thing to navigate talking about with my younger ones when they ask if they have any other family.
Thanks for sharing the books and websites, I'm looking forward to getting stuck in and hopefully finding more peace.
Good luck to everyone going through this, especially around the holidays ❤️

Glad to be part of the welcome club, @Mallardstreak13, but sad that you need the thread as well.

@Tbry im so sorry to read you have PTSD too. It's awful. And it's a DISGRACE that people who are ‘professionals’ say you can just manage you can't. Are you in any way able to afford therapy? If so, find one who uses a trauma informed methodology. I think some counsellors aren't equipped to deal with the really dark stuff.

We are skint - I've just binned a project as I couldn't stand the client and I knew by merely looking at her (cocky 30 something know it all) that she would send me over the edge and I was likely to tell her to fuck off at some point lol - so we’re just about able to pay for MM’s therapy (when there's an appointment available) until his free therapy allowance of three months paid for by the charity he works for kicks in in April. Frankly, I would rather be eating dust than to see him like this.

Although…he’s quite perky this morning. He’s cooking breakfast and singing Irish songs. This is a good sign.

Last night he was in a state, he just looked so drained by the whole experience and was clearly feeling terrible about switching the phone off so his vile mother The Hag couldn't ring him and scream.

The phone is still switched off.

Yesterday she'd clearly decided that MM would now do everything for her as one of the SEVENTEEN calls he received was about her finances, which is all handled by Slave Son.

The care company has just called me to say she is refusing personal care.

Me, feeling worried (why the fuck should I?)

“Should you ring her?”
Mr Monkey “No, she’ll just scream at me.”

She’ll be sitting in her squalor thinking this is going to bring everyone running.

No, Hag, this is going to mean you will be transferred to the local authority lock stock and barrel.

This weekend is getting MM into practice for going no contact.

She is a truly hideous individual.

If anyone is reading this and thinking about getting more involved in abusive older parents’ lives. DON’T. They don't improve with age. They are entitled twats.

And breathe.

@Mallardstreak13 love the name! Hugs to you. Well done on going no contact. Christmas brings up really complex feelings and, of course, the abusers’ appalling behaviour goes up a good few notches.

Got to love Mummy Monkey - very straightforward, very kind but very unimpressed by drama and by the Hag - has just saidon the phone.

“I think it's emminently sensible that Mr Monkey has his phone switched. 17 phone calls is frankly ridiculous.”

The social worker HASN’T arranged for the care company - despite me calling yesterday - to help the witch carry her shopping up to the lair which we spoke about yesterday. I'VE now phoned the care company this morning. I will speak to the social worker. In fact I will leave her a message.

The Hag can't carry the bags.

The Hag is unable to tell whether fish fingers go in the fridge or the freezer.

But The Hag is deemed to have capacity.

Can you honestly tell me that if someone can tell a social worker that they know their date of birth but don't know that fish fingers go in the fucking freezer or not indicates they have capacity?

My mother: “that's ridiculous. Who's taking the shopping up on Sunday?”
“Mr Monkey”
“I will do it with him, then I'm taking you out for lunch.”

Mr Monkey has phoned Slave Son to make arrangements. His phone is now switched off.

Got to love Mummy Monkey - very straightforward, very kind but very unimpressed by drama and by the Hag - has just saidon the phone.

“I think it's emminently sensible that Mr Monkey has his phone switched. 17 phone calls is frankly ridiculous.”

The social worker HASN’T arranged for the care company - despite me calling yesterday - to help the witch carry her shopping up to the lair which we spoke about yesterday. I'VE now phoned the care company this morning. I will speak to the social worker. In fact I will leave her a message.

The Hag can't carry the bags.

The Hag is unable to tell whether fish fingers go in the fridge or the freezer.

But The Hag is deemed to have capacity.

Can you honestly tell me that if someone can tell a social worker that they know their date of birth but don't know that fish fingers go in the fucking freezer or not indicates they have capacity?

My mother: “that's ridiculous. Who's taking the shopping up on Sunday?”
“Mr Monkey”
“I will do it with him, then I'm taking you out for lunch.”

Mr Monkey has phoned Slave Son to make arrangements. His phone is now switched off.

Unfortunately @MonkeyfromManchester capacity is a VERY low bar. It also sounds like Hag is taking advantage with the fish finger shit - my grandad once called us pitifully asking how to eat a takeaway once he’d got it home - he used to be a CEO and hadn’t started mentally declining yet, he was just not used to or prepared for coping for himself (three-four day trip abroad by my grandmother). But yes, they normally assess capacity for me with “do you know your name, do you know your date of birth, do you know where you are, do you know what date it is” and you can even get the last one wrong and be assessed capacitous. With the overload in social services demand it’s likely to be much easier for them to say “this woman can basically speak English and knows she’s in her own house” and move on to the next person with advanced dementia or schizophrenia or something.