September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

I may have just deleted her number.

There is no way she’s that tech savvy. I’ve now got the number that called - the number didn’t show up - but it doesn’t have a name attached to it. The calling and hanging up is a favourite and RIDICULOUS game she has. MM took voicemail off his phone.

well, I now have the number thanks to a 30 minute read of iPhone tech Ancient Greek & texted it to myself.

A quick exercise of compare and contrast with MM in the AM.

Because i’m going to win at this, I am going to be keeping the number.

@MonkeyfromManchester I agree she cannot be that tech savvy, she is 86 I believe. I am sorry you are getting sucked into the drama and her evil games though. Because you had a normal upbringing, it's just sad to see that someone like her can suck the life out out people, literally even "undamaged" people like you. Please try to see it from the outside. It's her, she is crazy and it's horrendous. You are the best thing that happen to MM. He seems to be doing well, he is not allowing her to do what she wants. He is able to remove himself from the situation, that's incredibly positive.
From my own experience very difficult to do. As a child you only beg for love. Constantly. And you get this shit all the time. So we'll done MM. He is doing well. Mind yourself as this is very hard on you too. She was really nasty at the hospital and I am not surprised. She is trying anything and everything. But nothing will work for her. xx

@girlswillbegirls yep, 86. Or 86,000 as I believe she’s some kind of alien life form.

yep, my family were lovable loons but this behaviour is not something I’ve ever seen anywhere.

if it was her - and to be fair it may not have been - I doubt it was an accident the only people she rings are Mr Monkey and Slave Son who are at the start of the alphabet. I’m right at the end. Hmmm.

We had an ‘accidental’ phone call at the end of last week where she was ringing MM’s cousin continually to drag him into the drama. Apparently, she’d been ringing Slave Son all afternoon and got the lovely cousin in error. Hmmm. When MM checked the call log to delete she hadn’t been ringing Slave Son at all that afternoon.

She’s like some Evil Genius, apart from the fact that she’s been found out.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I am sorry about how bad you are feeling. Just want to send you a virtual hug. You are very vulnerable and you aren't surrounded by nice people and that includes your sister. Do not let anyone to mock your voice, demeanour etc. Please don't. You are allowed to just leave. And also not to see someone if you don't feel like it. Some people feel better about themselves by putting others down. Don't let them do that. Every day try to do something for yourself that makes you feel good whatever it is. A long walk. A cup of tea with someone that cheers you up. Read again your favorite book and play with your cat. Try to do things that make you feel good. And block every toxic person. You deserve your own happiness. xx

@MonkeyfromManchester My mother is from Irish Catholic stock...she was one of 9 children and is still a practicing Catholic herself. Of course myself and my two brothers were forced to go to Mass every Sunday when we were still living at home (I left at 21)...and of course none of the 3 of us have stepped into a church since...

I knew at age 9 I wouldn't be having kids. My current partner of 14 years would have liked them but I was 41 when we met, so no fucking way. I'm pretty sure my mother thinks I should feel ashamed that I've not had them...I sometimes amuse myself by imagining what her reaction would be if she knew I'd gladly had two terminations (including one when I was happily married to my ex husband) to make damn sure I didn't...

I thought when my older brother married 20 years ago he'd have kids...nope. From what his wife has said since it's pretty clear he sees our childhood in much the same way as I do (which to be honest is a relief). My mother blames his lack of kids on the fact that my sister in law is overweight (seriously).

@girlswillbegirls I think now she said those horrific things to me at the hospital in public I’m completely justified in not doing anything Xmas related or ‘kind’ for her. I was justified before. But if anyone from MM’s wider family says anything about Poor Aunty Hag being on her own I’ll say ‘sorry, she’s abusive and I can’t deal with her now’

And she can’t unsay anything now, especially with the BS of this evening and ridiculous calls - if it was her - on Sunday.

you are so right, children are hard wired to seek love - I’m sorry you had a grim childhood ❤️ - and MM has craved love all his life. He’s got it with me. He’s seen normal with my family and added everything up.

you are so right - it’s try everything. We’ve got the hint of an encroaching hunger strike as she’s not eating. Fucking mentalist.

xxx

I am now very curious to know if The Hag is actually hiding her number 😂Perhaps she could have asked someone to show her how to do it?

@FreeRider nothing like Old Skool Irish Catholicism. MM is still vaguely Catholic but of a far more liberal hue (like me, pro-right to choose, LGBTQ+ women priests etc) I’m a heathen.

Hag can’t get to mass anymore. Think last time there was a bolt of lightening and a fissure opened up in the nave as she approached the altar.

The remark about your sister in law. The criticism NEVER stops.

totally insane.

@girlswillbegirls god only knows.

She could have asked the techie aliens for some assistance.

😂😂😂😂

Re the not eating @MonkeyfromManchester some ED experience upcoming! If she wants to make a show of it she’ll probably sneak some snacks on the side. Both my mother and grandmother do this, on the one hand because she wants to be skinny and vulnerable, my grandmother because most of her life has been cooking for people and she sees sitting down for her own meal as a shameful indulgence. I can’t abide eating in front of people for the most part but IME for the most part people who want to put on a show will do a big song and dance of not eating and still find a way to get plenty of calories in. From the vital statistics you’ve given - not sure how flip they were but many older people tend to get either lighter or heavier, much more often the former. If she’s not naturally predisposed to anorexia or wedded to a cause like Bobby Sands she’ll start eating. God, if she was eating hospital food she probably doesn’t have that much desire to give up eating.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau that’s really interesting. I had anorexia as a teen and, like you, I never talked about food.

We’ve had Hag Famine before. Eye roll.

She was eating like a horse in hospital.
“I’m not eating. I can’t touch anything”
Next sighted shovelling in jam roly poly and custard.

I go between anorexia and bulimia but my ED is over 18yo. I often get asked to eat a full meal as a condition of release but the beds are so overfilled that they’ll let me off on half or even a bite of a meal. My point was mainly that if she could stomach hospital food (bless them, they do their best) she’s probably not going to last long on hunger strike…

@MonkeyfromManchester i think you and MM are going to have to set up the Hag survivors club once this is all over for you both. I’ll be at the first meeting to buy you both a drink because lord knows you need it. Jesus Christ, what a spiteful, hate ridden harridan she is.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau hugs. No, she was eating the lot in hospital. The difference is that it's rolled to her bedside and served up by handmaidens.

Her classic last night was that MM could go round and put her eye drops in for her. That's three times a day. He just said NO.

@MonkeyfromManchester Thank you! mine’s a pint of wine. Several. When I read back on these posts it’s actually hard to believe that someone behaves like this. It is appalling.

I don't actually know what I would have done without this forum. The toxicity to me got ramped up at Christmas 2019 - MM had it since birth - so it's been three years of this SHIT. 10 weeks of her living here at different points between Jan 2020 - December 2022. MM didn't for one minute insist she came here, we couldn't predict that our kindness would be abused.

We put a stop to it as her behaviour here was utterly disgusting.

When I arrived at the Stateky Home I didn't know what coercive narcissism was, the tricks and ploys, but i do now.

If I hadn't had this space I wouldn't have been empowered and, in turn, unable empower MM to seek therapy and she would have destroyed my mental health and my relationship. There will be women and men all over the UK who will have ended perfectly good relationships because of toxic mils.

@Sicario i have now mooted the idea of the burner phone with MM. “Oh I hadn't thought of that.” I think it quite appealed because he loves Breaking Bad. I have to plant seeds with him.

I have also just pointed out that if a partner was saying and behaving this way to him - screaming, shouting, calling him constantly, emotional blackmail, attempting to isolate him from friends (me) - he would call it coercive control and emotional abuse. He works for a charity that works with very vulnerable women so he knows what this looks like. He agreed.

Phone calls. Yes, that was her calling me on Sunday evening. I checked the number with MM this morning,

A call at 7.44, 7.46 and 7.48. The calls went to voice mail. She would have got my jolly Monkey voicemail message so she KNEW it was me. This was no accident. If I had had picked up I would have received the screaming treatment. So, she’d been seething in her hospital bed since we left her charming carcass at the hospital at 4pm until then. And forever more where I'm concerned.

I have put the name to her number as The Mad One and she is BLOCKED.

@MonkeyfromManchester the hag reminds of my grandad - so used to being served two hot meals a day that he actually phoned to ask how a takeaway worked the only time my grandmother has gone abroad in my lifetime - and my mother, still bitter that I didn’t wait on her hand and foot after her eye operation, which also involved drops and in my circumstances also involved me basically being totally physically disabled and out for the count at the time (but my mother thinks this is all for fun and I can turn it off and on at will, so that’s OK then) and my dad being present and able to do it for her. The number of times my mother has quavered - and she’s early sixties and otherwise very robust, so no reason to quaver - WHILE DRIVING no less, that her eyes are getting so bad, maybe she needs to talk to her specialist, go back to hospital etc is too many to count. She probably thinks hospital is a massive party. It is not. The Hag probably encountered staff similar to those in my local hospital - it might even be the same one - who tend to be cheerful and want to feed you, which a lot of people see as a sign of affection or probably in a narcissist’s view, esteem (acts of service etc). It says a lot about her that despite being from her generation, if that makes sense, she enjoyed that.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau we laugh that she's from the Blitz generation and experienced the Manchester Blitz but has absolutely NO backbone. The staff in the hospital were bloody Saints.

On Sunday, there was a woman a couple of beds down with her husband at her bedside. She got out of bed and walked out of the ward as Hag’s behavior was so atrocious.

Last night when MM was with her, the Hag was being ‘confused’ (I bet. All part of the vulnerable old lady fuse) so he phoned her GP this morning to update him.

Her GP is GREAT.

He thinks a trip to the Memory Clinic is a priority. He's called her in via MM for an appointment on Monday.

The cry wolf shit - although I do think she has dementia but coupled with long standing mental illness -isn’t going to actually help her game plan of staying in her home and sucking everyone back in as the sobbing baby Wolf shit might end with 24 hour care.

This forum gives us all a safe space where everybody understands the insane dynamics of toxic family relationships, and where we encourage and support going No Contact with people who bring nothing but misery to our lives.

It also gives us the language to describe our experiences and some brilliant resources to further educate ourselves about what we have gone through, and are often still being subjected to.

I consider myself a fully-fledged graduate of The University of Stately Homes, and its been a godsend.

@MonkeyfromManchester - I wonder if The Hag realises that her phone behaviour is actually a criminal act? I started receiving malicious calls and hang-up calls, and when I mentioned that I was going to report to police and that the resulting criminal actions would be out of my hands, then (surprise surprise) the calls stopped.

It is harassment - without looking it up I think s1 of the Harassment Act 1977 - to make unwanted contact with someone two or more times. That’s it, that’s all you need. However, unless you can prove the calls came from her it’d be difficult to prove. If you want to hold the law over her head next time (if) you talk to her then look the statute up on legislation.gov.uk. If you really want to do your research there will be a sentencing guide. And if you want to go Full Lawyer on her, screenshot your missed/unanswered calls.

@MonkeyfromManchester I realised a while back that blocking someone on my phone doesn't stop them leaving voicemails! I turned my voicemail off after that.

I'm seeing DM next weekend and have been very lc with her for the last few weeks - replying to the odd message but not returning calls. She's started contacting my husband now and has asked him to make some prints of photos he took at the last horrible family party. I've not asked to see them, zero interest. DH works two jobs and we've got two kids, she's got FAR more time than either of us to run errands! DH is doing it because he says it's less hassle than fighting with her but I'm really wary about the whole thing.

@Sicario total God send.

Oh yes, harrassment. She started it a couple of years ago and then stopped and she tried on Sunday as she will have been incandescent. I'm not going to engage with her by pointing out the ‘error of her ways’. She's blocked. I've flagged it with MM.

She was harrassing her downstairs neighbour over his loud tv earlier thus MM took Hag at face value. MM went to see the neighbour.

“No, I've not had my TV on loud. I've tested it, asked other people to listen out for sound leak. It's not on loud. She's mistaken. I know she's your mum, mate, and I've got a mum, but she’s harrassing me and I told her i’d go to the police.”

He told her that the man had mentioned the police. The TV was never mentioned again.

Oh gosh @MonkeyfromManchester. Hag is unusually unconcerned to share her true nature with the world for a narcissist, isn’t she? Not just her fellow ward inhabitants but neighbours too?

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I think the mask is well and truly slipping.

So, whilst writing an urgent story for a client I'm phoned by the social worker. And when whilst I'm talking to social worker and giving the story a final copy check, I get a text from MM.

As follows.

“Had a call, i picked up in case it was the carer wanting to speak to me. It wasn't, it was my mum and she shouted and shouted at me, there was no way of talking to her at all. I think it will be worth telling social services that i am unable to have any meaningful conversation with her. I don't know if it's dementia, not eating properly (she complained she had had to make her own bacon sandwich). I reminded her she always makes her own. She shouted about her routine being ruined and she's only eaten a bit of it. When i asked why she hadn't finished she said she wasn't hungry any more. After more shouting i said i had to get back to work, she said i care more about work than her and hung up. Whatever is wrong with her i think her mental state is not what it should be*, communication with me is all but impossible at this time.”

*oh dear.
**to put it mildly

I read out the text to the social worker.

“Oh, that's not very good. I think there's some real difficulties there.”
“What will you do?”
“We’ll be asking the care company to check for all the issues you've outlined but we will add that there needs to be a check on her eating.”
“So what happens if she refuses to eat.”
“We have to look at other options.”

I've sent the text to the social worker. It is going on her notes.

The next step is a conference with Hag, Slave Son and MM and a social worker.

“You are going to see an old lady who is being very reasonable, but as you can see from that text, she is not.”
“We see this all the time.”
“There is a serious pattern of historical abuse in this family. My partner has PTSD caused by his family. He cannot deal with this. It is making him ill.”

His workplace is sending him home in an uber.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I think the mask is well and truly slipping.

So, whilst writing an urgent story for a client I'm phoned by the social worker. And when whilst I'm talking to social worker and giving the story a final copy check, I get a text from MM.

As follows.

“Had a call, i picked up in case it was the carer wanting to speak to me. It wasn't, it was my mum and she shouted and shouted at me, there was no way of talking to her at all. I think it will be worth telling social services that i am unable to have any meaningful conversation with her. I don't know if it's dementia, not eating properly (she complained she had had to make her own bacon sandwich). I reminded her she always makes her own. She shouted about her routine being ruined and she's only eaten a bit of it. When i asked why she hadn't finished she said she wasn't hungry any more. After more shouting i said i had to get back to work, she said i care more about work than her and hung up. Whatever is wrong with her i think her mental state is not what it should be*, communication with me is all but impossible at this time.”

*oh dear.
**to put it mildly

I read out the text to the social worker.

“Oh, that's not very good. I think there's some real difficulties there.”
“What will you do?”
“We’ll be asking the care company to check for all the issues you've outlined but we will add that there needs to be a check on her eating.”
“So what happens if she refuses to eat.”
“We have to look at other options.”

I've sent the text to the social worker. It is going on her notes.

The next step is a conference with Hag, Slave Son and MM and a social worker.

“You are going to see an old lady who is being very reasonable, but as you can see from that text, she is not.”
“We see this all the time.”
“There is a serious pattern of historical abuse in this family. My partner has PTSD caused by his family. He cannot deal with this. It is making him ill.”

His workplace is sending him home in an uber.

Ugh, so sorry for you and MM @MonkeyfromManchester. I know this will make it extra tough on you, but is there any way to make it totally clear to the carers that MM is NOT to be contacted by or about her? Then he won’t need to pick up in case it’s concerning her.

@MonkeyfromManchester I use to get trembling feeble voice from mother 'im going to starve myself to death' I use to lmao, it's not called starving these days it is 'breatharian' and very fashionable [google it] I would then wax lyrical about how amazing she was, her will power 😂
3 years ago I would have been worried, cooed to her to have some cake, send her a Harrods red cross parcel. Once I knew she was making up poor little old lady and her Dr told me point blank she was faking dementia for attention, the gloves came off.
MM deffo needs to tell carers not to call him, call SW, GP or slave. Last Xmas day was ruined by 8pm call from mums carer, crying that mum was hysterical threatening to end it all....WTF you phoning me, I don't give a shit...Carer refused to go there again she was so upset, siblings who live few mins away wouldn't answer their phones. I am in a different country! Unbelievably she was never embarrassed by her behavior, they are totally BATSHIT.