September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

And thanks @MonkeyfromManchester! About the regulating emotions, I think it’s a two-way thing, they want to force us to make them happy and of course we MUST always be happy around them as they are wonderful and light up our lives!

Re the crying thing, when I was younger my mother would often walk out in the middle of an argument and I would be distraught. This was before I had developed my patented technique of crying without making any noise or changing expression. I got it a couple of years later and it was very useful on eg car journeys to and from the bus-stop. But it mainly comes out in situations when I’m more comfortable - my old uni chapel or watching a film with my boyfriend.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau yes, with regard to pace that's exactly it. You match the pace. You mirror the situation. You regulate yourself if it's not life and death.

I do feel sorry for Slave Son. His life is a car crash. I did think he would crumble and be driving her home. That's why she phoned him at 6.30am as she knows he's vulnerable in the morning as his MS is really exacerbated by tiredness. That's what we’re dealing with here.

Is there a toxic family training camp where they are taught these kind of things? Your mum and sister are definite graduates. Your Nana is trauma bonded. If her family was dreadful she's going to bond with a husband and stay no matter what. It's so incredibly sad.

It is really sad, I agree. Particularly for my nana. She got into a great university to study chemistry in the fifties, then proceeded to work full-time in science while bringing up two children after being forced to quit because she had married. She’s been a perfect sixties housewife her whole life although she’s got the biggest brain in the family and my mother disparages her for it. She once said she was sorry for me after I was dumped by a long term ex, because “grandad’s never left me” and I sort of even agree with that - I know this isn’t healthy but when another ex gave me silent treatment for weeks so he wouldn’t hit me, in his words, I said I’d rather be hit honestly. Props to my nana, honestly, the most I’ve ever been able to do is compliment her (SUPERB) cooking, her fashion sense and send thank you cards, but she’s a remarkable woman who has not been treated well by life.

@FreeRider thank you.

It’s all so deliberate. She’s let her life become this way. The self-denial isn't new. The self-neglect is. That's definitely about bringing everyone to heel and being able to portray Mr Monkey, in particular, as an uncaring shit who is dominated by his nasty barren girlfriend.

Thing is she doesn't have anyone to tell this story of appalling neglect to. She has no friends or wider family as they have been pushed away. She's made a lovely space for Mr Monkey to fill but he refuses to fill it. I am so proud of him.

Yes, your mum will see children giving up their lives for toxic parents as entirely normal based on that. So tough for your brother. I'm glad you escaped. It's utterly terrifying what can happen with these people. It's so bloody strategically done.

Awful, awful, AWFUL people.

Xxxx

Hi all

Hope everyone is doing well in the battle with the parentals. I think realising they are toxic is such a big step.

I've not been in contact with "D"M much - not returning calls or messages. So she started asking my son and then my husband what we wanted for Christmas. She suggested getting us an afternoon tea voucher for two somewhere that's half an hour or so from her and a 3 hour round trip for us. It was clearly going to fucking escalate into her wanting us to drop the kids at hers and spend a weekend there. If I do go to visit she will pick pick pick at me, trying to get me to stay longer then bitches behind my back whatever I do.

I don't like leaving the kids with her to the point it's stopped altogether. When my son was little I did used to drop him there regularly when I was involved in a big work project. She wouldn't ever come to us to help with childcare and would generally take the opportunity to completely wind my son up and he'd be upset by the time he left because - I found this out from a relative - she'd go on and on about how it was going to be a long time before he saw her again and made a massive deal about saying goodbye at the end of a visit. She also kept making snidey remarks about us having a small car and funnily enough, after a visit there, my son also started remarking on our car being too small.

Anyway, on Saturday I got an e-mail with a voucher and then half an hour later a sulky message saying she had "phoned a while ago" and sent the voucher. And then a message to the group chat about my Dad. I'm really weary of her using my Dad being ill to try and manipulate me into more contact.

We've got a family weekend away from Friday so I will see her there but I think my strategy is going to be just to retreat if anyone starts any drama.

@MonkeyfromManchester Fucking hell, holy shit and brilliant, I freely admit I hooted with laughter thinking 'Go Hag Go' she is speeding her way to oblivion and a care home, get that armchair ready to accompany her.
On a weirdly science project type thing, how in the name of fuck do they not get it?? They are obviously thick with zero shame but must on some level understand their shiite behaviour is responsible. They just cant help themselves can they.
The last conversation I had with my mother she was utterly vile, on speaker phone so my dad and her carer heard. She was 4'11" 6 stone and 90 years of burning seething jealousy and hatred. I just said quietly, go on, knock yourself out, get it all out there, it will be the last time you ever talk to me, lets hear it all, she didnt stop for breath, eventually I hung up the phone and never spoke to her again. She died 10 months later in a care home on her own, not even my dad by her side. That phone call did me a massive favour, I am not religious but I believe that call saved me. Everything was laid to rest right there, I no longer felt any guilt, obligation or kindness towards her. Not a single tear shed, just pure relief. Unlike my siblings with years of unresolved hurt, pain and anger. Someone up there likes me....not her, she is downstairs where I hope all narcissists spend an eternity in purgatory being belittled and ignored.....Hallelujah and amen sister.

@binkie163 it’s a weird one. I don’t necessarily think they’re thick - it takes a lot of at least emotional intelligence to manipulate on that level. I think it’s more that their level of entitlement and self-regard is so high that they can develop a huge amount of denial around stuff that ordinary humans wouldn’t contemplate. My dad once said my mother had a huge level of awareness of others and no self-awareness, whereas I was the opposite (not in that I don’t care about them, I just don’t know what’s going on in their heads or how to work out what they’re feeling with any accuracy). I think he was right and I think if constant admiration and slavish support from others was your lifeblood, that would be the logical outcome. In addition, manipulators and selfish people tend to get rewarded by the world. From what I’ve read about narcissists, if you get some narcissistic supply from someone and they don’t ever kick back because they’re scared or you have power over them, why not go back again and again? You’re better than they are, so you’re perfectly entitled to use them.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau tbh I just think they are oxygen thieves. My mum would often sob she was lonely and no one loved her [yawn pity fest] I would just say it was because she was a cnt and no one likes cnts. That always shut her up. They know their behavior is disgusting, they plan their little Machiavellian games to hoover, hurt and control. I don't know a single normal sane person that would think that is ok behavior. I don't believe in making excuses for them or those who are enabling them. The freedom of no longer giving a shit is priceless.

Wow @binkie163 - I’m actually astonished you were safe to say that. Props to you! You genuinely said she was a C-word (I’m not trying to one-up but if I said that even in milder language I’d probably be headed to hospital shortly afterwards. There’s also a complicated thing going on in my head about how I believe I’m a toxic waste of space and can’t believe anyone wants to spend time with me.)

Wow. What an experience for you both Mr and Ms MM. I hope you are both okay after yesterday.

My own NM has a martyr complex (in the context of narcissism, she would never put anyone's needs above her own). Within thirty minutes of me asserting a small boundary, she fled my house and I haven't seen her since. I have had to spell out that I don't want contact, after she sent a gift to the kids (addressed to them, not me). Reading through all your experiences that sounds like a humble brag - it's not. I think the silent treatment was meant to draw me back in when actually it's made the NC process much easier. Thanks, mum!

More EMDR today, still feeling good about it.

@Frontroomroomjungle absolutely not a humblebrag and well done for your assertiveness. I agree with you for the ST - it’s supposed to be a punishment but often it’s THANK GOD SOME BREATHING SPACE. Keep up the good work.

My sister and her bizarrely higher-pitched voice are about to be on their way home. I’ve survived. Just about. There might be some self-harm but nothing like I’d been contemplating before she arrived. Her silly little child’s voice (she’s 26 and has told me off for YEARS for having a naturally higher-pitched voice and a childlike demeanor so I’ve got no fucking patience for it) has made me feel physically nauseous the whole time she’s here just like my mother copying my mannerisms and voice with the cat. That along with her hair (much longer and thicker as she doesn’t have anorexia and someone forcing her to have haircuts and bribing the hairdressers to cut it short) her figure and her lovely, very rich boyfriend - don’t envy her him because I adore mine, but my relationship has its complications - her designer clothing- also not envious but at least she doesn’t have a bit stolen every other fucking week and just her general lack of mental damage make me feel sad. I’m sorry. That makes me a bad person.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you for your kind words. I'm sending you some love and care over Mumsnet (which you are both entitled to and deserving of).

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I am a very forceful person, I had to be, I was regularly beaten black and blue as a child by my mother. At age 13 in one of her daily drunken binges of rage, she smashed me in the face with a saucepan, I snapped, I got her by the throat and told her the next time she touched me I would kill her, I meant it and she knew I meant it, something changed in me that day, she was afraid of me ever since. I was hard as nails, unbalanced and off the rails by 13.

I grew up fast and did well for myself, I also moved abroad and kept them at a distance. I didnt understand how fucked up my family were or what a narcissist was. I realized 2 years ago that old feelings started resurfacing, stuff I hadnt thought about in years. I knew my childhood was shit but never dwelled on it. I started lurking on MN 2 years ago, I learned a lot and it hurt me deeply as I started to understand the reality of my family. Long story short I went NC in January. My mum died recently, I am glad I had the chance to turn my back on her before she died. There will be only 3 people at my mums funeral, my dad, sister and brother, she had no friends.

@binkie163 so sorry you went through that. There are no words.

I think we react differently based on our personalities as well as what abuse we had to suffer. You sound like a proper trouper who was able to stand up for herself at the age of 13! That’s amazing. I still can’t at 31, which sometimes causes me shame and sometimes reminds me of how brave I have to be to stand up for those I love against those I’m supposed to love - from the cat to the boyfriend. However, none of that means you SHOULD have had to stand up against those nasty forces. Nobody should, let alone a child.

Re your mother’s funeral, please at least have no guilt for that. Most lifelong prisoners have more mourners than that, she must have been something, and not in a good way.

I don’t think I’d exactly get pleasure from there being few mourners at my mother’s funeral - if I don’t predecease her - but she has her other daughter and at least two other friends who are LD and get the best of her life only as a result - old fashioned social media with a side of huge amounts of bile re me and my dad. If I were safe to do so I would take satisfaction from telling the university that employs her - the one it was my sole life goal to attend - that she was arrested for GBH. Then seeing how keen they were to employ her for undergraduate interviews.

@HoraceGoesBonkers one day we’ll enjoy Xmas again. Well, with the people we love and treat us properly.

That is AWFUL Re your son. That's your mum basking in the attention of traumatised little boy. These people have NO LIMITS,

@binkie163 I think they are sly, cunning but with no self-awareness. Once you know the games and you might choose to reveal you know they go BATSHIT. I want to shoot cvnt at the Hag. But I suppose that's because I'm an angry barren woman. 🤣

Jesus H Christ Re the sauce pan. AWFUL. She could have killed you. I think something happened with MM where he pushed her away. He was 17. There used to be regular fights between Slave Son and The Hag where they would be fighting rolling around on the FLOOR. So, then she just rolled out even more spite when she realized violence was impossible. I know she would punch me if I didn't tower over here at my lofty 5ft 2.

Unsurprised there was no one at your mum’s funeral. Hag has pushed people away. There will be no one there.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau no, you are not bad feeling. You are entitled to your own feelings - good or bad.

@

Hospital didn't put her glacouma eye drops in her medicine pack so MM talks to chemist and gets some.

He takes them round. The Carer is there. Hag is charming as the carer is there. Nice mummy.

The carer goes. Hag reverts to type. She has lost her mobile phone charger. I know what you are all thinking…

MM offers to get her a new one.

“I don't want it”
“Well, then you won't be able to make calls.”
“I won't use it unless you tell me how much it is.”
“I don't know how much it is. I've not looked yet. When I know the cost, I will tell you and you can give me the money.”
No “thank you for getting it for me.”

“Where are my new clothes?”
Please would be nice.
“I haven't got them, but I will bring them to you.”
He didn't tell her that I had ordered them online. Anything bought online is pure voodoo. I expect to see them in her spare room when she dies and I burn her house down.
“If you don't let me give you the money then I won't wear them.”
Who actually gives a fuck about what you do.
“I will take your money, but if you want to continue to wear filthy, stained clothes then that is your choice.”
She won't wear them.
“I bet you've been telling all the neighbours that i’m a filthy pig.”
“No, but I've told social services, the hospital or the carers that you won’t wash your clothes.”
“Thanks a bunch.”

“I’m going now.”
“Back to Monkey” Pure venom.
“Yes.”
“Is she more important than me your own mother”
“Yes.”
“Well, thanks a lot.”
Then head down. Whimpering.
“I’ve lost my best friend.”

HOW OLD ARE YOU? EIGHT?

Yes, it's fine to beat and emotionally abuse your best friend when he was a frightened child. And to continue to emotionally abuse him in his 50s.

He’s taking her charger and her clothes to her this week. I will accompany him to remind her of my presence.

He has to reduce contact now and get it back to the very low levels of before.

She's a fucking cunt.

@MonkeyfromManchester lol they are such wankers aren't they 🤣🤣🤣 I never wanted kids, another one of my crimes. Who the fuck would want kids who had my childhood.
Pmsl dad asked if he should invite a widowed lady neighbor to mums funeral 😮 mum repeatedly tried to shag her husband so maybe not.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I don't know if this will help. The shame use to crucify me. I had a friend who attended a wedding, her husband was disgustingly drunk, shouting through the speeches, falling over. I asked her if she was ok, I was so embarrassed for her, she wasn't at all 'why would I be embarrassed? He is the one acting like an arse hole, it's his shame' that was a massive lightbulb moment for me. I no longer had to accept feelings of shame for their shit. However that film 'a star is born' when Bradley Cooper pees his pants on stage, that was my dad in the posh village pub standing at the bar with wet trousers, so drunk he was oblivious, everyone laughing, still hurts but it is not our shame, it is theirs, it is not our fault it is theirs. X

I try not to use that word @MonkeyfromManchester but the Hag has more than earned it. You owe her nothing and are still doing her errands for her. And of course you’re going back to MM (or vice versa, sorry if I got mixed up with the pronouns) you are married! This is how marriage works! You jolly well should be reminding her that you exist and what’s more MM chose you. Not her, you. She should be grateful for each and everything you’ve listed on this page. Unfortunately “should” generally means that the thing hasn’t happened. Sorry :(

@MonkeyfromManchester oooo burn down the house of hag 👍 I have matches, we ride at dawn.....

@binkie163 That is a classic funeral story. My god, I understand about you not wanting children. Lots of Stately Homers are terrified of revisiting that shit on their kids, but you see to every last one of us self-awareness and kindness.

MM wanted to have kids. He never put pressure on me or it wasn't something we ever talked about, but he did. He would make a brilliant dad. That vile comment wounded him too. We’re not a little family unit because we didn't have kids? FFS.

You are so right about shame. It's a huge force in the Hag’s life. Irish Catholic shit. I think I'm supposed to feel ashamed that I don't have kids.

The thought of her as a grandmother. There are no adequate words to describe my feelings on that.

Binkie, have you got paraffin too? 🤣

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I'm a terrible potty mouth when I get going. Sorry! Xxx on reflection, I'm not dropping the stuff off with MM. I’m not giving her space to abuse me. She can bask in her pathetic sense of triumph. But at the end of the day, Hag, who does he come home to? Me.

No need to apologise for the language, sorry, Monkey! I swear like a sailor myself, but generally am reticent about the c word, was just saying the hag has ascended the heights necessary to merit it.

These are very, very minor offences on my mother’s scale but just two more things to report to people who will know how hurtful they are in context.

My sister and her boyfriend are now probably back home having left earlier. My mother spent ages gushing over how lovely the boyfriend was - he does seem very nice - but specifically because “he obviously really cares about [sister]”. Oh, and “he’s very polite”. Neither too outrageous in isolation but she’s taken against my partner because he just wants to use me for sex, apparently, as you can imagine that’s done wonders for our relationship and my already non-existent confidence, and has been disdainful of his looks and manners. He’s autistic and quite shy, still takes care to say please and thank you and has gone out of his way to avoid pissing my parents off, including always coming round to mine instead of me visiting which has caused further tension. Because of his sensory issues he wears shorts even in the snow and eats a very limited diet. I know it sounds like such a spoilt, petty, envious thing to say but it really hurts that it’s enough for someone to like my sister and care for her, while everyone I’ve ever been in a relationship with has been judged, dismissed and insulted because they’ve (sort of, in some cases) loved me.

The other thing was, I’m currently struggling with severe depression, an anorexia relapse, the remnants of long covid and adjusting to my meds, which are soporific: propanolol at a very high dose and Mirtazapine. My mother announced she was planning to go to bed at 9:30. At 9:45 I said I was tired and needed to sleep. She looked at me and said “why?!” As if I’d announced I was going to use a pogo stick to fly to the moon. Even my dad gave her a bit of side-eye. Why the fuck they both think getting out of bed at… well, whenever they decide, when my psychiatrist has told me it should be consistent even if it’s 3pm, having a shower which inevitably drains my body heat totally immediately, particularly with the idiotically designed bathroom or “wet room” where the tiles get soaked, making it bloody freezing and a lot more likely to cause a fall, and get dressed! Is going to solve all my problems and get me back to work within a bloody week absolutely eludes me. I’ve got a cat to feed and clean up after now. Can’t honestly manage much more.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau bless you. She has!

Your mother will attack ANYTHING that you deem important - the kitten, the boyfriend, your interests. You aren't concentrating on her. You aren't feeding her gaping maw of narcissistic need. It's not spoilt or envious to want to be treated equally.

Continue what you’re doing. Prioritise you.

OH MY LORD. I think The Hag did her nasty phone trick with me last night. Three calls in quick succession and putting the phone down. I got it on voice mail. But I can't see the number. She's blocked so would that be possible? I think my paranoia is sky high. I've unblocked her so I'll soon know whether she's playing games. If she is, she's sicker in the head than I thought.

I think - I think - she couldn’t call you at all it she’d kept her old number and you would have remained blissfully unaware. However, she could have changed the number (it’s fairly easy, my network changed it in two minutes after my rape and third attempt at leaving home) and then selected withheld number if she’s tech-savvy. It’s highly unlikely that her calling from a blocked number would show up as a withheld number - possibly a nuisance advertising, spam caller? Anyway knowledge is power, if you’re strong enough keep the Hag unblocked. Added bonus of her knowing for sure you don’t want to speak to her.