September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@MonkeyfromManchester totally understand I did exactly the same, just trying to save you some of the shit, others tried to save me the shit but I couldn't see it, I had to do it my way until I just exploded.
Tbh I am surprised adult services have been so good, there are so many who need care desperately and appreciate and then you have hag. If I was adult services I would rub my hands with glee remove care package and let her get on with it. As everyone on here says stuff only gets better once the crisis hits and the crisis only happens when you step away and let them fail.
Maybe she doesn't need carers! I know my dad is perfectly capable of shit, shower and shave, he just wants breakfast in bed, lunch made, remote control on his table etc done by someone else but doesn't want to pay for it, my mum somehow wangled it for free, it boils his piss 🤣. The hag uses every opportunity to play feeble to get mm to go round, she is far from feeble and I suspect far more capable than everyone realizes. If she doesn't need carers she doesn't need to be phoning for shit, that is what the carers are for, she is stating very clearly she doesn't NEED help, so don't give it. You are locked in a battle of wits, she has always won and sees no reason why she won't now. The definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing expecting different results xx get those COVID bats out the shed xx

@Sicario thank you so much. You are really kind. I love my home city of Manchester but right now I wish we lived overseas so we wouldn’t have to be in the maelstrom of dealing with her and just leave it to Slave Son. Wishes can be pointless but I wish someone had talked to MM when he was younger about the toxicity of his family and he had gone non-contact. It’s the pull of the sanctified Irish family plus he’s a lovely forgiving person and trauma bonded to fuck. I’m glad his therapist has raised the NC option with him. He’s INCREDIBLY stubborn once something has clicked with him and I’ve been surprised at his determination of not putting her washing machine on once a week and not doing the “I’ll just pop round to my mum’s” #washingmachinegate

@binkie163 you’re being totally reasonable but the extra cherry on top of the head-fuck of abusive families is the sense of obligation imposed by society and the fact that we are sort of hormonally programmed to care for our parents as they’ve cared for us, and they’ve probably cared for us in some way for us to have survived to adulthood. The societal expectations have slackened recently but most of us will still think “but it’s my mother” in MM or even SS’s position. They’re doing the right thing, but it’s super difficult. I’m sure you’re aware of this, btw. Just trying to express solidarity.

@MonkeyfromManchester 🤣🤣 absolute class isn't it.
IBS= domineering mother
You can heal yourself by Louise Hay!
Iv never read the body keeps the score but I expect it is also about how childhood trauma affects us for life.
At least when she pops off it will all be over xx

Good for MM by the way! Proud of him both for his therapy and his determination. Nolite te bastardes carbundorum (hope I’ve remembered that correctly, it’s not very good Latin in the book so I might be remembering it with mistakes).

@binkie163 hugs to you and I totally appreciate your wisdom.

she is in need of care, but we’re not doing it. She wants MM to pop round and be in her evil orbit but he’s not. He’s stop that in early 2022 and he’s not going back. The carers are the barriers to this.

The civic side of my personality is FURIOUS that she’s been deemed in need of social care, but not using it.

Someone else could use that care if she doesn’t use, but I’m getting it in place and if she doesn’t use it the self-neglect will continue and then we will need to ‘consider other options’.

Sorry I’m so busy on this thread this morning, I’m killing time until my EM (this is now going to be short for evil mother) fucks off.

Re the Body Keeps the Score, there a couple of vaguely dodgy chapters about recovered memories but most of it is a very thorough and grounded account of how trauma affects us both physically and mentally - physiologically. Would recommend read as it’s hugely validating and suggests some solutions as well.

@MonkeyfromManchester if I had had any wisdom I would have walked away from my bastard parents 40 years ago not waited till I was in my 60's 🤣🤣 I was too busy steadying the boat [being manipulated] to be able to see clearly.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau hugs to you. Your posts are not essays, it’s important to stay connected with sane people and the all important perspective.

@binkie163 i hear you! Like @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau says we’re conditioned by toxic families AND society to continue to be part of the family (said in Peggy Mitchell* Eastenders cockney accent - now if there was ever a fucked up mother, there’s one…)

she has phoned - of course she has - ‘to check in on poor ill Mr Monkey’ - the phone call then covered the usual bases re: carers. MM completely sees through the faux caring mother act and said “that was complete projection and manipulation.” He laughed.

He is now keeping the diary on the calls rejecting care, some of the RIDICULOUS statements made and length of calls.

now she’s “ashamed” by the state of her flat and her clothes. So she DOES know. I read something about how shame works as an emotion so I’m going to look that up. I think “ashamed” is supposed to make MM go “ nothing to be ashamed of. To make her chaos OK. He didn’t.

His Mobile is now on silent

. I always imagine her FURIOUSLY ringing me in the old days when she couldn’t contact MM or Slave Son or she wanted to fuck with my head. I used to answer as I’d absorbed the role of other slave (that’s GONE) or the punch bag (GONE!). Then I stopped and now she’s blocked as of two years ago. She’s probably sitting there furiously punching the key pad to get whatever ring tone you get when blocked. In an ideal world this is: “Fuck off and fuck off some more and don’t keep Fucking off until you have fucked off.”

@binkie163 but you DID escape and it’s a bloody triumph. It could be your 30s, 40s, 50s or 60s but you had the realisation and it’s DONE. That is so brilliant. You are an inspiration as is everyone like @Sicario who has done this. Your mother died, didn’t she?

*the Peggy Mitchell mother nickname is up for sale, ladies, just send a cheque to Monkey Towers made payable to Hag - The Rock In The Atlantic Fund. A couple of grand should cover it. Any change goes to the Stately Home Gin Fund.

@MonkeyfromManchester I tend to go with “fuck off completely, then fuck off a little further, then continue fucking off until you are inside out and a citizen of another country, then fuck off again”. Mentally, obviously.

What I was told in the mental hospitals was that the difference between shame and guilt is that shame is being a bad person (obviously a mix of your self-perception and society’s view of you, with an objective element) and guilt is for bad behaviour. Shame is infinitely worse because it is one of the main precipitators of self-destructive behaviours and IDGAF generally destructive behaviours. Guilt, meanwhile, can encourage reparations, changed behaviour, healing and hope on all sides.

IME narcissists and generally toxic people tend to be incredibly concerned with their image and think that anything that tarnishes it is going to be irrevocably dangerous in some way (think Trump, always rushing out THE EVIL MEDIA IS LYING ABOUT ME). I’ve particularly noticed with my mother and a couple of exes that as we’re viewed purely as an extension of them, any transgression however minor is also viewed as a reflection on them. I’m not sure what that insight actually contributes but you’ve got it now!

The constant fishing is also such a feature with narcissists. I say detrimental things about myself all the time but I am not ready to accept any negation of them so I’ll normally preface it with “not a fish” or in at least two cases just ask them please to assume it’s never fishing, I just absolutely hate myself. But with narcissists, it’s always a fish. They somehow can manage it without doing themselves down sometimes!
Monkey and binkie and pretty much everyone, if not just everyone, on this thread, you are inspiring to me! Such strong ladies.

Hello everyone! I lurk, I've posted a couple of times, I read everything, I'm really sorry to see @MonkeyfromManchester and @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau are having such a horrible time.

I will see my terrible mother on Sunday and I'm sure she'll ask about Christmas. I've already had 2 nightmares and a sleepless night. My husband and I usually pop to see her on Xmas morning. This year, armed with a years worth of therapy, I've decided no more, I deserve a happy Christmas. She's not happy to see us on Christmas, she's usually visibly annoyed cos she would like us to visit at the crack of dawn, her terrible husband sits there with the telly on, we receive a horrible present each, and even if she doesn't say something terrible to me the uncertainty whether she will or not it's enough to exhaust me.

I'm scared of her reaction. And I just want to shake myself cos I've spent ages trying to detatch myself from her and not let her affect me.

I did this thing in therapy where I drew lots of Russian dolls, each with a photo of me at a different age. It's a visual thing to help me separate which part of me is angry and needs attention and soothing. Like is it my inner child, teenager, me now, etc. At the moment it's all of me. All past parts of me are angry with her right now, and I'm full of rattling russian dolls all needing attention.

It's a family gathering I'm seeing MTM (my terrible mother) at, so I would like to go and see my niblings. Unfortunately we're meeting somewhere a car journey away and I don't drive, so will be getting a lift with MTM and be stuck in the car with her too. (At least I'll be sitting in the back and I've convinced her it's too noisy to hear her from back there)

Think this is just getting my thoughts out of my head in a safe space.

You are another strong person @GreggsVeganSausageRoll. Stand firm in your decision, and it sounds like therapy has helped, which I’m glad about for you.
This always feels very difficult for me and I’m never sure of being able to pull it off, but could you find a reason why you actually can’t give your mother any time on the Day? You might end up giving her a few hours on the days around it which will be tough, but that leaves you will breathing space on the actual day itself during which you can make it so special for yourself and those you choose to keep as your family. I’ve always found it’s much more peaceful to seize on an excuse for why I can’t spend time with my parents than attack it head-on - for a minor one, they don’t really want to see my boyfriend naked and want him to think well of them, so I get privacy when he’s around (this isn’t very good long term, but short term when he can spare the time it works).

I really apologise if this comes across badly, but I’ve been taught in therapy that all our emotions have purposes. The main purpose of anger is self-protection. It helps us deal with threats and although it probably doesn’t feel like it, it’s likely a positive sign that the person who is threatening you is specifically triggering recognisable anger, because that’s the first resort for a stressed nervous system and one of the most effective. But the anger is there for a purpose and always has been. You owe it to yourself to act on it- not provocatively, not dangerously, not even aggressively, but someone who has hurt their child as badly as you’ve been hurt deserves your anger and contempt. They have not earned your fawn response any more.

@GreggsVeganSausageRoll hugs to you.

God, if companies actually looked beyond the sickly idea of happy jolly families and created cards with “Fuck Off” and a load of tinselly barbed wire on them or a toxic-family version of a Playbarn where there’s a lovely room for us with a free bar and a dungeon for them with some pigs in blankets at Xmas they would be onto a WINNER.

More seriously, I’m so sorry you’re facing this with MTM. I’m really glad you’re having therapy as that takes a lot of courage. You’re clearly a visual person can you draw a picture of the bad Xmas for you and a good Xmas for you. Or write it. I think you need that manifestation that we will face this toxicity and to keep reminding yourself of this. This will gird your loins. Do your siblings know how you feel? It’s so horrible thar you’ve had nightmares and sleepless nights. Xxx to you.

With these people it’s ok to lie. They lie to themselves and us constantly. Are you OK to fob her off on Sunday and then nearer the time ‘get Covid’ ?

I’ve had a good day, I spoke to someone senior at Occupational Health at the hospital. I laid it on the line.

i outlined the issues and I made it clear that we weren’t not taking Hag’s care on. I said “I’m following this up with an email to you, we are keeping a diary on when she’s calling us to say she’s refusing care, so what we understand from you is that any self-neglect is going to be monitored and will be escalated to the social workers and then decisions will be made.” I sent the email on to her GP.

SO, Hag is going home TO HER LAIR on Monday. Community health are taking her home for 11am - not us - and the first care call is at 12 noon.

MM is totally up for this. Even he wanted to or thought it was a good idea, he has an important work day in the office. Slave Son thinks it’s terrible but who gives a fuck. He believes the poor old lady shit despite how utterly vile she is to him. Trauma bonded dickhead.

SHE HAS GONE BATSHIT. The Grand Ceremony Of The Hag Leaving Hospital will not feature the walk on roles of Slave Son and Mr Monkey.

“you’re home at 11am, the carer will be there at 12pm.”
”what am I doing for the hour between?”
FFS. Sitting in your lair same as you ever do. Now FUCK OFF.

We’ve had phones being slammed down, screaming THE LOT. The phone is on the coffee table on silent and it’s vibrating away. I think we’re on call six. I’m having a cheeky sauv.

Oddly, the occ therapist said she was loving it in hospital, going round the ward chatting to everyone, the support staff helping her to get dressed, not a complaint in the world…

She is going to ramp up the shit this weekend. MM is ill so he can’t see her In hospital this evening or tomorrow and doesn’t want to. I’m going with him to the hospital on Sunday to give her the keys so she can get in to her flat. I’m getting an extra set made so if she ‘loses’ them, she’s not under any circumstances coming here. She is going to be as cunning as fuck with all this shit and I’m prepared for any eventuality.

oh we’re up to eight missed calls now. She’s going mental. She has a weak heart…

lol @MonkeyfromManchester , I thought weak hearts went out with the sixties and seventies!
I don’t know and wouldn’t ask which your local hospital is, but I often wait 7-9 hours between being medically discharged and actually leaving the hospital, so don’t touch the Hag with a bargepole. She can work it out with social services.
Were I you I’d be hiding the keys/leaving them with a trusted neighbour rather than risking any contact with her. MM might be affected by even the briefest contact and she’s probably not attached to a drip any more so she can come after you.
Oddly I’m a similar sort of patient as the Hag sounds like she’s been to others on the ward: making friends, doing favours for others, making fun of myself to the staff. Which makes me worry a little. However, I can also see similarities with my mother who plasters on this facade of fake politeness including, bizarrely, to the cat. When she’s alone with someone she doesn’t like the mask immediately cracks and falls away. Others can detect something wrong even when she’s on her best behaviour. This is also a horrible thing to say but given that it’s Bitch About Cecile’s Mother Day, she’s also had eye surgery recently. Fairly minor - she can still drive etc, and it involved areas of the eye which literally have no nerves. She made a huge fuss about how I never cared for her :( she was in so much pain :( :( how dangerous it was :( :( :( I had quite literally crawled upstairs to check she was OK on a couple of occasions. Granted she could have had better nursing, but if you’re going to ask someone who is frightened of you and hasn’t had a decent meal in six months to nurse you when your husband is RIGHT THERE wfh every day, what is your expectation?

@MonkeyfromManchester
BATSHIT....weak heart....game on... mission impossible music x

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau you being fun and kind on the ward is being genuine, so don’t worry you’re not a narc.

You care about people and animals. The community health people take care of it all and they need to get her into the lair for 12pm for her first care call of new regime.

It’s going to be hell, but it’s going to be worth it.

@binkie163 lol. Dusts off GSCE biology text book. Xxx

I’ve been reading all your recent posts 🤗 to everyone navigating their difficult families and trauma.

I used to feel trauma was a drastic way to describe what happened to me. I haven’t come out of fighting a war after all. It’s been more like death by a thousand paper cuts. It just keeps going and I’ve been trying to stop it by going NC and LC.

I know it’s silly as I am fortunate to have my lovely husband and kids. Plus 1 friend who is there for me no matter what and a handful of lovely looser friendships. But, I still get this sinking lonely / rejected feeling in my stomach every now and again. As I’ve gone low contact or no contact my family may perceive me as the one who is rejecting them. Yet here I am feeling rejected by them.

I had a wobble today - I am gradually reducing phone contact with my mother. I call her a couple of times a week at the moment and she always guilt trips me. She also says “I was wondering what happened to you. You haven’t called for so long and I was wondering if you’re ok or if something happened. I was so worried”

My reply is normally “if you feel worried just call me” and I move on to have a quick chat then end the call. The guilt trip sometimes drives me mad and today I snapped and said “it’s annoying that you keep telling me this every time I call. If you’re so worried why don’t you just call? You don’t call or visit and keep complaining. When I did call daily you just sit watching TV while I am trying to talk to you” Anyway, my mother replied by saying “fine, don’t call me and I won’t call you or ever visit you” then she proceeded to tell me to hang up as she needs to have a cup of tea and has other things to do. I feel super annoyed with myself for opening this door.

Being LC is challenging as I can’t always successfully grey rock. About 2 or 3 times a year I kind of loose it.

It was a weird day as also I found out that another distant family member who I thought was a safe person cancelled plans we had made months ago. I accommodated their dates to make it work and sent a message to say how the kids are excited to see them. Two days later they replied saying they are really sorry they can’t make it but they have been very unwell. I felt bad as this person has a long term chronic illness so I said that it was no problem at all. Anyway my mother told me today that this person visited last weekend on route to flying out on a holiday! It was quite upsetting to be lied to as I was genuinely worried. It feels like my family keeps falling away. As I said before, it’s more me pretending that I have a family and being in various stages of denial about the toxic relationships that I grew up with.

I hugged my kids when they came home from school as I always do but it just felt extra comforting today. Then a friend sent me a lovely message out of the blue which cheered me up.

A long post to air xx

@tonewbeginnings hugs to you. welcome to your gang. You will always have friends here.

Trauma is big and traditionally ‘can be only be caused by ‘big stuff’ like war’. We’ve learned that from a male model of psychology (get me - lol) whereas all the things we talk about here IS also genuine trauma also and caused by a thousand cuts. A lot of us have CPTSD. It’s complex because it’s the 1000 cuts not just one trauma (not to diminish either)

1000 cuts is horrific because you can’t put your finger on what, how and why. It’s disgustingly insidious.

Going low contact is so flipping hard and family dynamics are a mystery.

Huge hugs to you. Hug those kids, know you are 500% a better parent. & MORE.

I’m not a mum but the level of great mums who’ve survived awful childhoods here is incredible. Each and everyone you are incredible. INCREDIBLE.

I’m hugging the remote and drinking wine and watching England vs Netherlands women’s football doing WhatsApp banter with the (Dutch) nieces.

The HAG PHONE is off.

I live to see another day.

We all do.

XXX

Agree with @MonkeyfromManchester and just wanted to add a couple of things if that’s OK @tonewbeginnings?
What @MonkeyfromManchester says is absolutely true about trauma, but it’s not just the male view of psychology, it’s also the view that serves our abusers very well. A lot more is known about trauma than used to be, and advances in treatment and diagnosis are being made all the time.
The effect of abuse and trauma of whatever kind will depend on a lot of factors including what you’re like as a person. Family abuse is super high-impact though because it tends to start and endure through the formative periods of your life, you literally can’t get away and all the societal ideals about family, all the ones about of course you love your parents and they love you too, in a crisis at least you have your parents, I could go on, but they reinforce what’s being drummed into your head about it being your fault and you not being good enough.

One of my mother’s favourite things to say when she’s cross is that such-and-such friend occasionally punched their son/daughter “and they’ve turned out fine”.. To be honest, I’d be happier with consistent smacking during my childhood than the emotional warfare that was waged on me. Still is, I guess. That also shows that the only people who can put up with my mother voluntarily are pretty terrible tbh.

I don’t know about you but one of the weapons used against me was rejection and silent treatment. That can make us extra-sensitive to any whiff of actual or perceived rejection, but sometimes we’re not bad people, it’s just the sort of temporal decay of relationships. It won’t help that your NM is probably hard at work triangulating, gossiping about you, and also completely destroying your self-esteem. It sucks but sometimes we just always have to be the one making the first move, and will be appreciated all the more for that.

x

@tonewbeginnings welcome to this group. Don't feel 2 calls a week is too low contact. I do once a week and it's still unpleasant. I can't cope with more contact than that. Weapons used during the years growing up was constant criticism, mocking, silent treatment, also lots of stupid jealously.

I am now dealing with low self steam and self doubt a few decades after I left home. But as you said at the end of your post "I hugged my kids when they came home from school as I always do but it just felt extra comforting today. Then a friend sent me a lovely message out of the blue which cheered me up"

On my worse days I always think how fortunate I am with my DH and DC and amazing friends. She CANT TAKE THAT FROM ME.

That's what matters. Only onward and upward. Sending love to all xx

@MonkeyfromManchester @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau @girlswillbegirls thanks! I appreciate the tips and my mission is to keep reducing contact. I know 2 calls a week still sounds like a lot, i also visit 3 times a year. But the expectation is for me to call daily and visit every school holiday (6 times a year). I’m gradually reducing it. Not sure if I can go fully NC with my mother. She is in her mid 80s and lives alone. My parents did a lot for me as they immigrated and worked super hard for me to have had an education so I do feel a sense of obligation. They came from a very poor country and hadn’t even completed school (mum left school at age 9 and dad at 15). We have a cultural, social, educational and huge generational gap as they had me in later in life. This has made it all very complicated.

writing here and reading others issues is helping me hugely 🙏

@tonewbeginnings hugs to you.

God, obligation is an absolute killer. I think the level of contact that you can manage and most importantly that you set is the best. It’s exhausting managing the bloody settings!

oh obligation…😭

One of the saddest things Mr Monkey ever said to me was “but there was always food on the table and I had shoes” He grew up in a really poor part of Manchester in the 1970s. He now says there was warfare at every single meal time and shoes were thrown and there was not one ounce of love.

I feel really sad at seeing how bleak he is this morning. I absolutely detest his family and what they have done to this lovely man. His mother is scum of the earth. His brother is a spineless enabler.

More positively, I am SO proud of him wresting back control and living a good life. We were talking last night of how he went to university with two O levels aged 38 and came out with a First, and his mother then leeching up the attention at his graduation despite constantly carping “what do you want to do that for?” “You won’t a get a job” “all those unemployed students” “it’s such a lot of money” for three years. The £ statement makes me howl as I supported him financially to do his degree and my mum gave him a couple of grand to do an MA.

His realisation last night about his graduation “she wasn’t really happy for me, it was all about her.”

Basically, she has never wanted anything good or pleasurable for herself or her children, apart from the Golden Boy son who has deserted her and no one knows where that absolute abusive shit is.

Oh my goodness, probably quite belated congratulations to MM! That’s a huge achievement! As I often said, if I managed that I’d have it printed on a t-shirt and never take it off.

Please remind me to articulate this later (if anyone is interested in another 2000 word essay, lol) but one of the things that is most upsetting me in my life is similar to that. Those comments are unacceptable. As a comparator - it’s actually so stark it’s weird compared to the families on here - my boyfriend has had two bereavements and some MH issues and failed out of his Maths degree (no quarter is given for life circumstances at his uni). His parents sympathised with him, his brother joked with him and he bounced back within hours. His parents were then SO supportive when he got a “menial” job to fund completion of his degree part-time at the OU. They live in a different country and have never stopped giving support and love. It is actually still difficult to believe even though I’ve been incidentally present at most of his calls and discussions with them. They aren’t faking it, they actually don’t hate him for failing and want him to succeed however he can. My brain actually doesn’t compute it. The Hag is a bitch to do the opposite to MM. By contrast my parents have even been disparaging about my boyfriend because when he got the news he was worried and I spent a couple of hours on the phone propping him up.

The stuff about the graduation really rings true for me as well. My family has what can only be described as a fetish for the university I and all my parents attended - I would really like to try and articulate how big an issue it is for me to people who understand. On my graduation day - I’d disappointed by getting about the highest degree possible without it being a first, after three previous years of firsts and seven prizes - it was all about my sister. She was shown around my college and what would become hers, toasted at my graduation formal for her IB results, and to top it off got to meet (and boast to) a professor I’d been hoping to meet for the entire four years I’d been there. That one is not anyone’s fault, it’s just the bitter cherry on top.

But poor younger MM. I’ve had a MUCH more luxury in terms of material gifts - we had horses ffs - but the echo of every single bit of it being leveraged for obligation and being involved in the constant conflict and struggle of a narc family - eg my mother using the horse as an excuse to slap me in public - is so familiar. MM is such a great man for letting it stop with him. The most important thing when you’re growing up is love and support.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau as a fellow essay writer an essay lol is fine ;-)

yes, what your BF has from his family is normal. I think if one has suffered emotional abuse, one will assume that’s abnormal, frankly, weird,. It’s not even an assumption it’s an immutable belief.

Yes, Mr Monkey is really clever, but grew up being told he was weird for wanting to read, write, do drama. We were laughing last night at how Hag and Slave Son view me ‘Ms works in the arts Oxbridge with her fancy Cheshire ways’. My dad was an auto didact printer who believed that children were independent beings and would joke about making us too freethinking.

To confirm my status of The Countess of Cheshire, I’ll be doing more of the pinkie finger going forward. 🤣

I totally hear you on family expectations. I saw that with some university friends. It felt as if their achievements came with massive caveats “oh you didn’t get a first”, “you didn’t win the History Faculty essay prize?” “So and so’s son is working at Deloittes”. It’s appalling. There was no joy about any of it. I saw lots of the next sibling along who clearly wasn’t the right fit for Oxford being bullied into it. my parents were just glad I didn’t get arrested, wasn’t on class As and graduated.

Material goods and “advantages” don’t count anywhere as much as genuine love and support and not growing up in wall to wall dysfunction.

frankly, with abuser parents NOTHING is good enough.

You take care Celine. X

I’m going to be very Northern and enjoy a brass band concert in my local park. Note I’m 55, not 95! I’m taking MM for some joy.