September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Can’t Slave Son be paid to care for her? From his moniker it sounds like he’s already doing something along those lines… apologies if I’ve missed something.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau she wouldn't pay him as he's already dancing to her tune.

MM has just phoned Hag to say he’s visiting this evening. I'm upstairs but I can hear (well, not quite..)

“Is Monkey coming?”

I'm not.

Hag imagines without my presence she’ll get control back. She won't.

@BlastAroundTheOutside “Don’t set yourself on fire just to keep her warm “ - this is a great mantra! I’m going to remember that one.

@MonkeyfromManchester - you do not have to justify or explain why you will not be caring for The Hag or having her stay with you. You don't have to give a reason at all.

In fact, it's often quicker and clearer to say no and give no reason.

"We won't be doing that."
"We are not her carers."
"She isn't coming to stay with us."

Fingers in the ears la-la-la-la-la.
(Except at Christmas time when it's fa-la-la-la-laaaaa, la-la-la-laaaaa)

@Sicario it's so bloody habit forming. She KNOWS I'm naturally a soft touch.*

She is so stubborn. She would make an excellent interrogator.

But you are SO right.

MM has headed off to the hospital for his visitation to the Queen of Fucking Sheba. I'm here eating the biggest bowl of Macaroni cheese.

*although I now have a core of steel thanks to you gals.

She is delighted I'm not there as she can play mind games. He shuts them down now. I imagine lots of spite for everyone to over hear which reveals her to be the vile person she is OR Mother Of The Year OR pretend tears. #NeverADullMoment

Mr Monkey is home.

The visitation to The Hag was OK.

The best time to go is obviously after she's been fed in the zoo at 6pm as she's tired and sleepy (from all the phone calls and evil this afternoon).

MM went at 6.30pm and got home at 8pm.

She's in a new ward which sounds like one for oldsters. There are probably some fellow abusers in there.

She was pleasant (for her)

Asked about Xmas.

“We’re at Mummy Monkey’s for Christmas. And it’s too much for her with the family over from Netherlands.”

Hag agrees. “She does such a lot”

MM: “Might do New Year Day lunch”

“Oh it's alright, I think I'll be too tired.”

RESULT.

Of course, there are four weeks until Xmas so this ain't the last of it, but heading in the direction of VICTORY.

Her breathing is still bad so hopefully we are some days - even a week - from her being released.

I have flagged it twice now that she's vulnerable (like fuck, mentally, she's a PSYCHO) and it's an unsafe discharge. THANK YOU @AttilaTheMeerkat & @Sicario for that gem.

Oh, and she was or pretending (attention seeking) to see cats on the ward. I'm DEFINITELY mentioning that.

She's not getting released on the general public - and NOT us - until she's been assessed by social services.

And assessed as fine to live in a mine shaft.

She's just phoned and is being as nice as pie.

Ooops, spoke too soon, she's whining about the ward. 🤣

Sorry, I just need to offload a bit.

So my mother is currently in a huge tantrum/sulk because she wants her parents (who have two daughters) to sell their house to her either at or lower than market price. She’s been on about this since my grandad was committed to a nursing home and her first remark when the Queen died was about their house.

Naturally those around her are catching the flak from this, particularly me. Today I was told off for using the wrong tone of voice with the cat (she’s basically a kitten, I have full-time charge of her and baby her and my mother manages to be jealous. Of a cat.) She sat on the floor with her glass of wine and ranted about my grandparents then tried to check against my dad’s movements. He told me he was going to London then did two more calls and left before I gave the cat lunch. I said he left before it was dark and I couldn’t remember the time (was busy napping with the cat as I’m adapting to medication changes and the cat had had her first time ever outside). My mother insisted he went to Guildford, sent a stupid text implying he’d cycled which I stupidly replied yes to because too much bother and I was asleep, and then texted HIM about me saying he went to London at 3pm. I’m not sure what sort of cheating he was supposed to have accomplished in the missing 2h even if I’d been definitive. He then got cross with me for allegedly saying that, although I refused to be drawn.

I got called “incredibly toxic” for saying this but I’m actually unsure how I get through the festive season. Everything feels like the straw breaking the camel’s back.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau sorry to hear you’re having a rough day. I know it’s hard but try to ignore & stay out of her way if possible. she’s only trying to make you feel bad as she isn’t getting her own way.

are you able to make any plans over Xmas? Go out somewhere or spend some time with your boyfriends family?

@tonewbeginnings thank you. It’s was attilas phrase but I think it’s a good one to remember when they are getting demanding.

Game playing today.

Not too many phone calls from The Hag today. Only four.

Final call of the day TO MY KNOWLEDGE as Mr Monkey has gone to clear her disgusting fridge out and taken his mobile with him.

Nice as pie in this call. The other game of switching on the charm.

Apparently, Slave Son told her that she was going to be discharged from hospital tomorrow.

Cue panic in Monkey Towers.

MM phones Slave Son “Did you tell her that?”
Slave Son “No”

So, it's the game of ‘he said’ which is supposed to make us go into panic mode - dear old lady can’t go home - and host her.

Hag had said in her call that she couldn't possibly go home as she didn't have a key, didn't have the right clothes (lol) and how would she manage.

This is supposed to elicit.

“Please come here. Live with us.”

Like FUCK.

Mr Monkey phoned ward for an update earlier.

Apparently, she's been nicer today; nurse didn't say those words but we know the code. She’s NOT getting discharged.

She’s not been out of breath or coughing AT ALL today. Oddly, she was out of breath and coughing yesterday when MM was visiting. HMMM…

I reiterated - POLITELY grabbing the phone from MM - that social services MUST be involved before any discharge. It's an unsafe discharge.

Magic words. Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat & @Sicario

Nurse: “i’ll make sure that’s in her notes. She might get discharged into a nursing home.”

Please God let that be the solution. She’s not using her carers. Very deliberately. Shift the problem.

MM had to explain AGAIN to Slave Son how she’s not using her carers - mouldy food, filthy clothes, flies etc

Slave Son is dreading the inevitable conversation - sorry, screaming - when social workers are involved as he’s so ground down by her.

He’s one for an easy life - IDIOT - of picking up the care stuff, which because of his disability will fall to us.

I will be present at that meeting with social services. But not present at the meeting with her. Or, maybe, I will to keep MM & SS on track.

Today we’ve had paranoia as she thinks someone’s been sleeping in her bed (I know there’s a shortage of beds in the NHS, but…)

Last night we had imaginary cats (right).

In the past, we’ve had someone spying on her (she lives on the seventh floor of a tower block) so has pages of the Irish Post stuck to the windows and waging the war with the neighbour who had his TV on too loud (he didn’t)

Sometimes I can’t work out what’s fact and fiction with her - is it genuine or is it game-playing? Old lady who can’t look after herself, so gets to live with us.

Thing is, Hag, it might be straight through to a nursing home, if you can’t look after yourself or refuse the support of the carers I put in place in 2020.

christ, she’s stubborn, but, increasingly, backing herself into a corner and hasn’t thought it through such is her entitlement.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau you poor thing. Sorry it was a crap day. Your mother is furious, isn’t she, because your grandparents won’t crumble to her demands. What do her sisters make off her?

There’s a lot of jealousy and paranoia there. Is there something in her jealousy of the kitten about her wanting you to parent her? Very Narc behaviour.

I hope you had a better day today. Xxx

Probably too late now @MonkeyfromManchester but I was going suggest MM take photographs of the squalor to show the SW. Also backing away rather than getting involved with SW and discharge team. The more you/MM step in, the more you will become embroiled.

The hospital is a safe environment so it will be left to them / SW to organise discharge.

Making yourselves unavailable and uncontactable is often the most efficient route.

Yes, @Sicario we should have photographed the squalor. Durr. Just what MM said when he got home from moving all the mouldy food out of the fridge (a bin sack) and all the rubbish in bin bags in the kitchen.

im going to write a script for MM of all the lines he needs to use. I don’t think Slave Son gets it. If he wants to look after her at his equally slum-like home (lethal stairs, dodgy area) he’s welcome to. However, I think when SS explore options with him he might wake up. His life would be HELL. And it’s not remotely suitable or a safe discharge as he’s badly disabled and his house is a death trap.

MM is reminding him every day of what she’s like, the state of her flat, her erratic behaviour, her frailty, what a nightmare he has.

Slave Son, I realise, is trauma bonded with the witch as she became his stepmother and ‘got him out of the children’s home run by nuns’ (you couldn’t name this shit up) when he was six.

I don’t mind being in the meeting with the social work team as I know what they need to hear, but I’m not getting involved in the meetings with The Hag.

To be fair, last time social services were involved they were good. They got her out of our house within a week when we had had enough of her (it was only going to be temporary whilst she got better, how I laugh now at my stupidity), listened when we said she was abusive, and put in loads of adaptations (which she doesn’t use) and care package (which she doesn’t use) in her slum.

She’s not stepping over our threshold. Nor are we staying over or GOD FORBID moving in with her.

@MonkeyfromManchester the extent of my advice re the hag is basically “stay strong”, I’m sorry I can’t offer more. Thinking of you.

It’s my sister, I don’t think the relevant grandmother actually even has sisters - they’re all competing for the family land and property anyway. I just want my grandmother not to die of breast cancer right now.

Re how my day went and the kitten: very bad day as my usually lovely DP decided it was take it out on Cecile day and said some heartbreaking things. I am taking it from two sides at the moment as if my DP doesn’t behave exactly as my mother wants I catch it, if my DF displeases her I get it in the neck etc. There is absolutely no risk to the kitten apart from her being stressed with the shouting so don’t worry. There are huge jealousy issues going on about the kitten, which is bizarre. Of course the kitten loves me more because I spend most of my time with her and I love her little socks off. We’ll get each other through. She’s a lovely little thing

Does anyone here have experience of being raided by a narcissistic mother?
To an outsider she appears to be the loveliest old woman you could wish to know.
She's torn apart my tiny family and has recently tried to gey me sectioned.

@DenimDrifting hi. I’m not sure what you mean by raided, but I do know what you mean by the them being the loveliest person to the outside world & totally the opposite behind closed doors.

cant offer any advice I’m afraid as I’m just getting my head round it all myself but I have found reading through the recommended links helpful along with the advice and experience of the others on this thread.

Raised. Bloody auto correct

My mom causes huge rifts, she's a covert narc though and people thinks she's such a sweat old lady

Sorry I was trying to think what else it could have been. Yes my mum is the covert type too & loves to play the victim. In a good mood she has snide comments bad mood she’s outright nasty. Also schemes, manipulates & very controlling.

is there a recent rift she has caused?

@DenimDrifting sorry you’re having that experience. If it’s any comfort, unless you’re wandering around saying you want to murder someone or birds are coming out of the walls or something, she can’t “get you” sectioned and even if you were quite psychotic it’s almost impossible to get a bed across the country.
It can make you feel crazy. Touch base here, keep in contact with understanding friends, read the links at the top of this thread. My heart goes out to you.

Personally had a quite nice day today, bit of a rapprochement with DP and lots of nice playtime with DCat who also slept on my pillow while I napped! All spoiled when my mother came home clearly in a raging temper and started talking in that faux-sweet faux-bright tone, first bullying her mother (who was diagnosed with breast cancer YESTERDAY) including amongst other things over an hour or so with “you should see your ex son-in-law over Christmas because you’ll be dead by summer”. I was absolutely shocked and ashamed to say I didn’t intervene - she’d been drinking and she’s a lot bigger than I am. I concentrated on distracting my lovely little cat who has been upset by shouting arguments before. It’s absolutely a godsend to have this lovely friendly little creature miraculously want to spend time with me and I’d go to war for her. My mother prefers our late cat who was much keener on her and regularly chased me into corners whereas current cat loves being around me and doesn’t even extend her claws when she’s in full play fighting mode. My mother then bizarrely picked apart my dad’s expenses from his one-night business trip - he’s a CEO and was giving a speech in I think Liverpool. Of course he’s cheating and misusing company finances, says my mother who hasn’t properly worked for over 25 years and currently has a much flirtier relationship with a local man in her student life than she’d like any of us to know.

Christmas is looming. Sorry to be down about it but what an absolute bastard this time of year is.

Btw for cat lovers: the young cat/kitten is absolutely fine, she was a bit stressed but after some play and quite a lot of David Attenborough she calmed down enough to sleep. I actually don’t know what I’d be doing without her, she’s not the cuddliest but she appears to be actually happy that I exist and I get to look after her, and she purrs nonstop all the time I play with her and when she’s being fussed/looked after but is so gentle. Such a little angel. We are so lucky with animals.

Well my daughter left home and quit college on mother's day. Haven't seen her since Daughter is exceptionally bright. Mother had a hand in this and has I believe been the force behind this.

So sorry to hear that. Try to work on your relationship with your daughter. Where is she?

Has she left because of your mothers behaviour or because she gets on with her?

@DenimDrifting My mother was a narc and my dad a weak enabler. My childhood was shit and no matter how much therapy you have you carry that shit with you for life. I wish I had this thread 40 years ago to give me the permission and strength to walk away from my enmeshed family then.

The old saying 'do not wrestle with pigs, it will exhaust you, you get covered in shit and the pig loves it' could not be truer with narcs. They love the fight and the shit.

They will appear nice to outsiders as they are by nature superficial. However these women never have friends, they are incapable of it, so they focus their attention on their scapegoats.

In truth it depends on how much pain you want to take. It sounds like your daughter has been hoovered in. Narcs always fake concern but it is to feed their need to control and interfere. The only thing you can do is starve them of their oxygen/attention but expect them to fight dirty to put you back in your place. Only you can gain control of your life and you will only do that when you have zero wiggle room left and nothing left to lose.

You must know my situation. Thank you. Yes she was hoovered in and I'd known for years this would happen. My mom isn't particularly intelligent, quite the opposite really. I'd say she's a sycophant, looks the part ,acts the part. I wish my daughter would wake up and see the shit that is my family dynamics. She's doing amazingly well with her A levels and mom and stepdad organised a work experience in a totally different career to the one she was hoping to follow. Of course she was showed with praise and decided to take time out and enroll in another college. I can't win with my mom. She's a cruel old witch.

I hear you on narc family members being nice to outsiders - it’s hard to watch the performance. I think people who get to know them a bit more begin to sense the fake niceness though. Unfortunately watching this Jekyll and Hide behaviour growing up has made me quite guarded and suspicious when someone is nice to me! Still trying to work through this but I now understand where it’s coming from.

On another note I have had 3 conversations with different friends who asked me about my plans over Christmas. I love this time of year with my kids and partner but it is also triggering. Firstly all the past memories of terrible Christmas holidays and secondly that desire for a different type of family. Wish I could come up with an answer to my Christmas plans without feeling that pang in my stomach - feeling sorry for myself and haunted by memories. I have changed my Christmas for my little family but my brain sometimes hangs on to old stuff! I guess I am trying to justify to others (on some level) on why I don’t spend much time with my FOO. I feel jealous that friends have normal families too - I hate that I feel that way!

@DenimDrifting the sweet old lady act is just that. Their ability to switch on and off the charm is incredible. Oscar winning.

@binkie163 the pig line is the BEST. I think I would have gone under without this thread in dealing with the psycho mother in law e.g., The Hag.

I've not slept properly for two days. I have a massive project on, which in itself comes with tons of crap. And THE HAG.

The Hag is still in hospital. . We are now getting calls from her as of yesterday saying she's being discharged and ‘they say I’m coming out today’.

It is obvious that if THEY are still doing blood tests that she's not getting discharged.

It's also obvious that from the notes on the system which I have phoned three times to check are on the system that she isn't getting discharged anywhere soon without a conference with social workers where it will be made abundantly clear that neither Mr Monkey and I or disabled Slave Son are picking up her care.

She can use the carers she has properly or go into a home. I'm beyond arsed where she goes.

I have a very strong hunch that no one is saying anything about her going home.

Instead, I think this is one of her fucked up ruses to force our hand.

Heartbreaking to see MM thinking chucking out filthy mugs and cutlery and getting new stuff for her disgusting home is going to make things OK, but this is how he copes. This home-making is about his awful childhood. So long as he stands firm - which he will - he can do what he likes. He get her stuff from Selfridges so long as her vile frame doesn't cross this threshold.

She actually just said in the last call this morning ‘Slave Son can come and stay with me.’

She has NO sense of how his disabilities would be impacted by this RIDICULOUS idea. She uses his disabilities as a card when it suits her, of course, to garner ‘what a wonderful old lady caring for her son’ or ‘Slave Son can't manage so you have to deal with me’.

Slave Son is being his usual passive self and anything for an easy life so ALL the being strong is falling to me and to Mr Monkey. I think he's actually thinking ‘why don't you have her?’ as it will just be easier.

I won't be part of any meetings that involve her, but I'll be at a social work meeting.

Standing firm on everything. Exhausting.

Going to bed to read a book.

@MonkeyfromManchester it's strange isn't it, my siblings do not like either parent, they never did, constantly complain but for whatever reason can't walk away. When I went NC their burden became even greater, they both pop in 5 mins a week but left all the phone calls, company and sorting to me, plus my mother will have wanted to rage at them daily because I abandoned her! They are like ghosts just going through the motions, both seem unhappy but not my problem. They do it because they believe the alternative is harder or not possible and like the boat rocking analogy wanted me to get back in the boat, they couldn't understand how I got away from my responsibility and how unfair it was to them!