September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@NightOwl101 sorry to hear about your position. I’m sorry to say those of us with abusive pasts do tend to carry over some behaviours we’ve learned, even unwittingly/without wanting to/for different reasons. Also the lasting trauma and damage can cause problems for those around us. The most viable solution is therapy. I’m currently having compassion-focused therapy with EMDR and have in the past had CBT, DBT and been recommended CAT although I was actually judged too unstable for that. Even some form of counselling might help depending on the degree of damage (sorry for the word, can’t think of another). It’s tricky to accept that though we - the victims - aren’t responsible, we’re the ones who need to do the work and make the changes, which often involves accepting we’ve hurt others, however unwillingly, and I know it’s very hard for men especially to admit they need help. But it’s not on you to cope with the collateral damage apart from the everyday support one spouse should show the other.

@MonkeyfromManchester - my Toxic Sister caused havoc whenever the mother was in hospital. TS would orchestrate the most ludicrous situations then send me into the eye of the storm.

TS demanded I had to go to the hospital to visit one particular NYE, where I found the mother sitting on her bed ready for discharge which TS had organised but not told anyone.

Total fucking nightmare. Mother refusing to budge, demanding to know where TS was as she was supposed to be collecting her. I call TS who eventually arrives on the ward and starts screaming at me AND at the nurses AND at the mother.

So of course I end up having to take the mother home with me. Cue two weeks of havoc caused by unsafe discharge. I ended up having to pay for a nursing home respite fortnight.

The lesson learned: I henceforth made it completely clear to hospital staff that I was not my mother's carer and could offer no practical help AT ALL. This was to include discharge arrangements, transport, home support, and anything else.

The hospital will do everything they can to offload elderly patients onto family members. "Unsafe discharge" is the key phrase to use. Removing her phone is a brilliant idea (or at the very least hacking into it and deleting MM's number or changing it to the switchboard for buckingham palace).

@Sicario thank you! Your TS was unbelievably selfish.

I went straight to the nursing station and said there needs to be a conference with a social worker before she gets discharged. Doctor is getting informed. She is NOT coming here.

We can’t take her and disabled son can’t either. I alluded to her mental health and that she can’t be left in her flat.

MM and j are agreed on this and MM is getting Slave Son to toe the line and not get manipulated and bullying home.

Praying for a care home and a speedy decline. Manchester is pretty good for care home provision.

she, of course, was basking in the attention and being charming at the hospital.

her flat was disgusting. Flies because of mouldy food. In her spare room. I brought her filthy clothes home which MM can wash and we’re binning the ones that have holes all over them. I feel filthy. I’ve just scrubbed my hands.

I have wine.

Hi everyone.
I didn't post for a while. I was feeling a bit down in relation to my mother and dysfunctional family. I am back again reading you all. I feel reflected in many of your stories. Might post when I am starting to feel a bit better. At the moment I am trying not to think too much about the future as my mother is clearly turning (even) worse. I need to be able to enjoy the present with my own family and children. I need to be able to ignore her. All the best to everyone xx

@girlswillbegirls
Aw so sorry to hear you are struggling with it all. It is v tough and for many this time of year is a trigger but it sounds like you are doing the right thing in concentrating on your own dear family. In doing that you are giving them what you didn't have and there is some measure of healing in that I think. x

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. Xxx @binkie163 i forgot about the COVID infested bats and the wasps. Must put an order in. I'm glad you feel at peace. I know that Mr monkey will feel the same way when the Hag heads to the very, very hot place. His stupid brother will be able to have some semblance of a life. And we’re not taking that responsibility on either as through the counselling that MM is having it emerges that Slave Son was part of the toxicity and violent too.

@NightOwl101 welcome. My problem is my partner’s toxic family so I totally get you.

Vent here.

This forum has saved me over the last three years. It's got me to a place of being able to support my partner where I can. He went into counselling and that's helped him work out his feelings about his abusive family to the extent that he's very LC. Would your partner consider counselling?

@girlswillbegirls also feeling for you with your struggles at this time of year, but glad you’ve got a family apart from your abusive one. Please feel free to share when you need.

I am also dreading Christmas, not just because it’s a trigger but because I have to spend it with my abusive family, and it doesn’t just happen on 25/12-26/12, it’s starting in about a week when my sister visits. I am terrified of both my sister and my mother. I am someone who had a collapsed lung for 24 hours before calling an ambulance, rode two separate dangerous horses I shouldn’t even have been allowed to ride at all for overall about five years, cycled in London on a now forty year old bike prone to breaking suddenly etc. Can’t stand the thought of my sister visiting.

@NightOwl101 I know it depends on your partner and how he is coping /dealing with the situation but for me it can be helpful for my partner to vent or be angry with her (mum) on my behalf. He has always told me the way she treats me is wrong but I wouldn’t listen. Now I’ve woken up to it it helps. I’m doubting myself at the moment and wondering if I’m being too harsh by going LC. Him recounting what she’s like and backing me helps me to know I’m doing the right thing even if for some reason it doesn’t feel right.

@MonkeyfromManchester I’m new here but thought I’d say hello as in some ways my mum sounds similar to your DH’s. I also had suicide threats as a child and my brother is totally controlled by her although he still lives at home with no hope of moving out as her “health”is so bad she is totally dependent on him although the Dr has given her a thorough check up, a clean bill of health and said there’s no reason she can’t do things for herself. But as I said above having your partner in your court really is worth it’s weight in gold.

Doubting myself at the moment. Should I take some of her care on to help my brother, what if the Dr is wrong and she is genuinely ill.

Blastaroundtheoutside

re your comment:
"Doubting myself at the moment. Should I take some of her care on to help my brother, what if the Dr is wrong and she is genuinely ill".

No no and no again re taking on care to help your brother. A doctor has seen your mother and has given her a clean bill of health. Do not set yourself on fire to keep someone like she warm. You need time and space to heal well away from your mother, not caring for her when she has been and remains abusive towards you. Toxic parents can often use health concerns or health scares/tests to keep what they see as their now adult errant children under a degree of control.

You owe her nothing, least of all a relationship now. You do not need her approval either, not that she would ever give this to you anyway. Do not doubt yourself. Am glad your partner is on your side here.

@BlastAroundTheOutside hugs to you. Don't get sucked back in. I'm witnessing the attempt by The Hag to drag Mr Monkey back into the unhealthy triangle.

One of the worse things about abuse is how it affects your confidence and how one doubts one’s own judgement as a consequence. The doctor is expert here. Your brother has been brainwashed. This is the same for Mr Monkey’s brother.

Please don't get sucked in.

Hag is milking this.

Slave Son has called Mr Monkey to check whether the caretaker knows that she's in hospital. Slave Son has been made to make that call to MM by The Hag. I fail to see why Slave Son can't make that call as he's sat by the Hag’s bedside.

Hag then calls to ask MM what the Caretaker has said.

“Was he worried about me?”

Asked several times. Hoovering up the attention.

I imagine The Hag is on his shit list for the war she raged last year against a neighbour ‘who had his TV on too loud’.

He didn't. Hag needed to persecute someone as Mr Monkey had gone LC and she needed an outlet so she waged a war against the neighbour. Once it was brought to her attention that the neighbour would report her to the police for harrassment suddenly the complaints about noise stopped.

Jesus.

Hag has just phoned to ask what tortellini is as it's on the menu for lunch at the hospital.

Later on I'll be explaining to MM that the calls need to be filtered and he cannot go back to being at her beck and call as we were in 2020 when she had her last health crisis.

The phone calls might be “sweetness and light” now because she wants to lever this crisis and there are people in the ward within earshot, but this will slip.

Just thinking about the hospital visitation yesterday. She shot me a look of triumph. I was performative in the extreme being nice daughter in law whilst keeping the fuck away from her and making sure I had the catch up with the nursing staff with regard social services picking up her care NOT us.

There was the “I'm not looking forward to Christmas” comment. Followed by

“What are you doing?”

My mum had come along for the ride (like a security guard) and my mum was:

“Oh, nothing is planned yet.”

My mum, kindness personified, is backing us to the hilt over our plans NOT to be near the Witch.

However, with the wise words of @Sicario re the hospital release of the Hag in my ears, I'm on to social services this afternoon.

Social work office has been contacted.

LAID IT ON WITH A TROWEL. Mouldy food. Filthy clothes.* Carers not noticing the source of flies in her flat. Won't use her washing machine. Won't let carers use her washing machine. Mental illness. Abusive. Dementia. Disabled son. My mental health. Complex health needs. Can't care for herself. Flat is disgusting.

*MM has just chucked five items of ‘clothing’ away after they disintegrated in the washing machine.

Waiting for a social worker to call me back.

@MonkeyfromManchester well done! Fingers crossed that it doesn’t just become an endless limbo of her in hospital martyring herself…

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau no such luck! Six phone calls. MM picked up three, the idiot. If he doesn't pick up she rings and rings. I told him to put his phone on mute.

This is her muscling back in. If she plays the martyr card enough, she thinks she's coming to Monkey Towers Convalesence Home which ain’t happening.

“I don't like being here.”
Then the confusing message
“I'm really ill”
Well, if you're so ill you stay there. And she will stay there until a care plan is put in place. I will chase up the social workers every single day.

And obviously this is control. Dragging him back in.

I can't he arsed to talk to him about it today. I'm exhausted and a bag of anxiety.

MM has gone to clean her flat and her disgusting fridge which is full of mouldy food. She's an absolute fucking nightmare.

Much sympathy @MonkeyfromManchester. Stay strong. Hospital is awful but if you’re that unwell they will not discharge you. So either she’s too sick/unable to cope to leave or she’s malingering. Either way she needs support from social services not from you. She’s made her own hospital bed, time for her to lie in it (and it really is mostly shit in hospital, the staff are generally lovely and doing their best but it’s boring, uncomfortable -plastic beds which encourage posture issues - noisy, you can’t sleep, someone coming to squeeze your arm or poke another needle in every two minutes, too hot or too cold, flimsy blankets and one tiny pillow, loud conversations about the most private of matters on a ward of eight with a paper curtain separating you from the other patients, I’ve seen older people have accidents on wards just in public, in front of everyone) I am not vindictive but from what I’ve heard about her she deserves all that and more and it’s sort of a shame she didn’t have to have a 20+ hour wait as I often do.

Thank you so so much @flapjackfairy and @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau , it meant a lot your comments. Yes I think approaching Xmas is not making this easy as I will have to spend ONE WEEK with my NM and I am absolutely dreading it. I'll be going with DH and DC so it's not that bad and I will be seing the extended family so I'll try to stay away from her as much as I possibly can.
I love the stories of @MonkeyfromManchester, I think you are gifted with your writing and it's great the effect that your stories have on me, (even though I'm sorry for your DH and you). You are able to see the funny part of it :)
Many many thanks to all for keep posting. I'm not alone xx

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you. I think she is ill and she's on the acute ward. Of course, illness doesn't prevent game playing or the calculation.

I'm so sorry you had those experiences. Hospital adds to vulnerability.

She had an eight hour wait and was moaning constantly. But I sent Mr Monkey off with a pillow so we didn't have the incessant pillow gate.

@girlswillbegirls the Stately Home is a great home for those enduring absolute shit from their families. You are NOT alone.

Thank you about my writing. The Hag is going to make a terrific novel.

Xxxx

@MonkeyfromManchester can’t wait for the novel! I’ve been encouraged to write about my life but given that the verbal gems that have emerged from my mouth have included “the three main characters stay together for all five books, except when they don’t” I’m holding off on it. My great-grandmother wrote and self-published her autobiography for family only but it’s a bit odd - includes her teenage years working in a mill and the fact that she had no fewer than six people she called various versions of mum and then ends at about the age of marriage when she says “I have a great-grandchild, everyone is happy. Have a cake recipe”.

@AttilaTheMeerkat & @MonkeyfromManchester thank you both. I know she is faking it, She has faked illness before. I think I just felt sorry for my brother but I also know he has to realise for himself what she’s really like. He does know she’s faking it but still runs around after her. I have been much more relaxed since I reduced contact to the bare minimum so I know I’m doing the right thing, I just had a wobble I think. “Don’t set yourself on fire just to keep her warm “ is my new mantra.

Its madness when I think of all of the nasty things she’s said and done over the years but I’m the one that feels guilty.

Good luck with the social workers Monkey.

Hope everyone else is having a good a day as possible.

Sorry but your g-grandmothers book did make me chuckle

One of the huge frustrations with hospital situations @MonkeyfromManchester is that the staff stick to the rule of listening to the patient. So if (when) The Hag lies about her circumstances they will take her word for it.

My mother was constantly undoing any progress I made - insisting she was fully mobile when she wasn't, saying that "my daughter will do this/that" and refusing the care package. Refusing to wear the bracelet or necklace so that when she did fall, she couldn't summon help. Refusing to wear hearing aids and pretending she could hear. She drove me up the wall.

So be careful that MM doesn't get shanghaied.

@BlastAroundTheOutside I hear you! The entitled nature of the abusers around people that they've treated appallingly is incredible. Click their fingers! Your brother is conditioned into that role. Love, love, love your mantra.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveauyour GGM book sounds fantastic. Dysfunctional family by the sounds. I think generations pass on the crap until one generation or individual says ENOUGH. This is what you are doing. Be proud.

@Sicario I hear you! Hag is the arch manipulator.

That's a nightmare with your mother.

Last time, the Hag tried every trick in the book to stay here.

This morning, MM:
“That’s never happening”

She's definitely levering the sympathy vote - or trying to - with calls. Four this morning. Phone on mute now. MM does get her games. Poor MM is visiting her this evening. She’ll try it on again, bring up Xmas and get angry when she doesn't get her own way.

Nursing people gave us an update this AM. She's been moved to another ward from the acute ward.

I reiterated the need for social work intervention listing all the ways she's unable to cope - a case of won't in there too - and how they MUST do something about it.

TBH I want her moved to a care home so I NEVER see her again, but MM thinks she can do sheltered accommodation. I don't know whether social services can force the situation with her.

Hilariously, her case has been referred to the Compassionate Team in the hospital who then liaise with social services. The Hag showed no compassion for her three sons. She will live for the screaming she can unleash and bask in the attention from the professionals. They have seen it all before.

We have a long list of why she CANNOT come here and why she needs more care.

Duty of care. Duty of care. Duty is care.

Our house stank of her filthy coat which MM has now put in the washing machine. I've lit scented candles.

I would also use the phrase "unsafe discharge" when needed as well in front of Social Services. The Hag is to my mind anyway well beyond the stage of being able to manage in sheltered accommodation given the state of her current flat/hovel.

@MonkeyfromManchester it’s so difficult, isn’t it? I hope poor MM comes through it OK. This almost feels insulting to suggest, but I hope you’ve emphasised that he’s having MH difficulties sufficient to need counselling and mentioned that he might possible be taking up NHS resources due to further mental damage if you both have to care for him? I’m sure you have, you seem to have your ducks in a row, but just in case you hadn’t thought of that particular angle. They tend to be quite reluctant to discharge older people from even non-acute wards if they aren’t 100% sure so fingers still crossed for you. The existence of Christmas is an absolute bitch isn’t it? I wish I were a hedgehog and could just curl up and sleep through it.

Re the abuse passing down the generations, I don’t know about some of my family - my nana for example literally will not talk about her family at all, she occasionally mentions her school, although my mother somehow got her brother’s number and went poking around there. I do know that there isn’t a single example of a functional relationship in my family, except for possibly my other nanna’s second marriage, which my mother warned me off with obscure references to how evil he was (the only evil I ever witnessed was annoying noisy yawning). My current relationship is far more normal and less abusive than I’m used to and I keep observing my boyfriend with awe like “you actually WANT to see your family? They support you even though you’ve failed out? You are allowed to have a girlfriend and love her? They have fights and THEN make up? They aren’t jealous of all your daily activities and ” I could go on all day.

@AttilaTheMeerkat oh that's a great phrase. She can't look after herself, not that I especially care.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau oh my god, yes, I'll be flagging MM’s PTSD and my bipolar. Good to know that about the ward. My ideal scenario is that she's there for quite some time…til next year.

Your description of your BF’s family is exactly what MM observed in mine and the penny started dropping. He has a MUCH better relationship with my mum than The Hag. Obvs.

Hag is now drawing Slave Son into phone games as SS is at her bedside now - poor idiot. SHE IS FURIOUS THAT MM ISN’T BUCKLING.

MM picked up when SS rang even though the phone is on mute thinking it was something serious.

SS has fuck all willpower. He's not 62, he's fucking six.

MM emphasized to SS that's he is at WORK. AT WORK.

Slave Son might have retired in his early 50s and from that point on devoted his life to the fucking witch but both MM & I hold down demanding jobs.

Last year, Hag suggested that MM GIVE UP HIS JOB and she WOULD PAY HIM TO CARE FOR HER. Needless to say, the kind offer was refused…

Just had chat with MM.

MM: “she's trying control games again. I'm not buckling to it”
“Glad that she was screaming at Slave Son in the background “PASS ME THE PHONE, PASS ME THE PHONE”, the nurses will see what she's like.”

Me: “stress to the nurses that you're not neglecting her during the day but you have a job in a charity which is demanding and you cannot pick up her calls constantly.”

Sure the other patients will see her for what she is. She's so wrapped up in her little toxic world that she has no self-awareness. I'd just stick her in a side room.

I think the old lady mask slipping is perfect for when we say we think there is a serious mental illness and it's clear that she's vile to everyone, the pressure on us is too much. She's overplaying her hand.