September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Thanks @Parentalalienation.
@binkie163 I’m glad you feel relieved and hope things are more peaceful for you now. I got that a bit when the dementia progressed, even my DS said “I quite like nanna with dementia she’s not nasty to us anymore”.

Hello, is it okay to join this thread? I suppose my main reason being that I have 4 siblings that do not share the same feelings as me towards our father so i feel quite alone and wrong for feeling how i do almost like how can I feel this way if everyone else seems to have good relationships with him.

I am the second from youngest in the family and I thought I had gotten past the crap from my childhood but it seems not. Years ago i had pretty much cut my father off but slowly started to have some contact although minimal. i think the impact of my relationship with my father seems to be impacting my relationship with my daughter 3 and 1 and my partner also.

My father was hypercritical of me growing up. I always felt I could never do anything right, always feeling like I had done something wrong that I would be in trouble for And made to feel like I was a complete social weirdo calling me odd and whatnot.

Then on the flip side it was like I didn't exist. I was constantly ignored even when in distress. He always favoured my younger sister over me. I was definitely a target for him. He had a terrible temper but he did go through some very stressful things including my mothers death and 5 children to raise.

My mother passed when I was 10 and my father had a new relationship a few years later. One night he and his partner had gone to the pub. My brother played a cruel prank on me that night at home that terrified me so I went into my father's bed that night (I used to sleep in with my mom when younger but hadn't gone into the bed since before she died). My partners gf was in another room and my father mistook me for his gf and said some really inappropriate sexual things to me. I ran out of the room and he followed crying. It wasnt spoken about until I told my older sister who confronted him. I forgive him for this mistake. What I find hard to forgive is how he continually beat me down and made me feel about myself. I wasn't a bad child I don't think. Maybe attention seeking.

I have suffered excruciating anxiety and crippling low self esteem. I second Guess myself and people please. I notice i have started behaving in ways towards my daughter that I don't like. Worried how others will perceive her and maybe putting others needs above hers. This is terrible i know. I dont trust myself so i dont trust anyone else including trusting my daughters abilities. Our relationship is not how I want it to be.

If I see myself repeating his behaviours how do I actually stop this. It feels very deeply ingrained. I suppose I joined this thread for some solidarity. I can't talk to my siblings about it at all. I do therapy which is helping but very hard to get past it all. Thanks for reading if you got this far.

@Tiddlesem as you are able to reflect on your own experiences, want to improve your parenting and have a therapist - you are already not repeating your father’s behaviour. Your children are still young so it’s great that you are addressing these feelings now.

@Tiddlesem its super common in dysfunctional families for one child to be singled out as scapegoat. You are definitely not alone and will find solidarity here. It won’t be because you did anything wrong (although I’m almost impressed you managed to be at all attention seeking. You won’t have been a bad child though.) Also very common to model the behaviours you’ve been taught, and often for different reasons. Unfortunately you can’t get rid of them overnight, which is why abuse can get passed down the generations. Read as much as you can, look into therapy, and this is probably going to be more difficult with children involved but even as simple an explanation as “I shouldn’t have treated you like that, I apologise and I’m working on my behaviour which is due to things that happened to me, you haven’t caused it” will make a massive difference.

@SoftandQuiet - I know exactly what you're saying. Take the two weeks leave and use it to do whatever the hell you want. My mother died last year and, like @binkie163 , I felt relief and a sense of freedom. The only cause of upset was the way my Toxic Sister really kicked off and ramped up the narc behaviour. She used my children as flying monkeys in the most despicable way.

While DM was alive, I had such confused feelings about her. Only now that she's dead and I have had a full year to process my thoughts, I realise that I didn't love her, never loved her, and never liked her either. She was a violent, abusive, nightmare of a mother.

Our relationships with our parents are so complex. It often takes time and distance to see them for what they were.

@Sicario that’s super interesting. I… think I love my mother a bit but it’s far outweighed by the fear and dislike, personally. To the extent that, and I’m ashamed to admit this, my paternal grandmother who my mother absolutely hates (because she didn’t relocate over 200 miles to take over the childcare for my sister 25 years ago, my mother has gone to the extent of sending rude drunk emails to her) has just had a huge heart attack. I’ll miss my DGM hugely when she dies and feel incredibly guilty I wasn’t able to visit her but I’m also feeling incredible amounts of trepidation about her funeral. When DGM’s spouse died my mother who had openly hated him the whole time (she told me he was evil but somehow never produced evidence, and she’s used the same word to me for remembering something differently to her) turned up very ostentatiously at his funeral to glare at me while I held my DGM’s hand and tried to sing a piece of music that meant a lot to DSGF (I did not succeed and in fact my initially very good singing voice has been absolutely screwed up by my mother). Not really sure what this anecdote proves, sorry.

@SoftandQuiet i second myself and PPs, Even if you need to distract from the complicated nature of your own feelings that’s still a valid way to spend your time off.

Going NC with my Family Of Origin meant not attending weddings and funerals. Missing the wedding of a dear niece was a sadness for me, but a necessary sacrifice. These kinds of family events are always emotionally charged, so all the more reason to stay away. Toxic Sister is incapable of not causing a scene.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau - an expressions that comes to mind is "don't borrow worries from tomorrow". There's no point in getting fretful about your DGM's future funeral. You already know your mother will use it to bring all the attention onto herself.

@Tiddlesem - welcome to the group. Recognising your behaviours and addressing your concerns about repeating patterns is a positive step. Educating yourself about toxic family dynamics is essential and is a lifelong commitment. I've heard that Philippa Perry's book "The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read" is very good.

Hi all, hope everyone is surviving!

I'd been very lc with my mum recently and was starting to feel a bit clearer about everything.

However she messaged on Saturday asking that me and my sister take our families to go and see her at her house in December.

We're already doing one family meet up in December which is for a full weekend and she wants another one between then and Christmas, at her house, which is a round trip of two hours for me and more like four hours for my sister. I also have to take time off work to go and visit my Dad because she put him in a really awkward to reach care home.

My sister has cancer and told her prior to the message that she can't commit to doing anything.

I've suggested meeting up in between where we both live instead. The last time I did this it turned out that she didn't want to travel, just wanted everyone to trail down to see her. So fingers crossed!

Sounds like your mother wants you all to trail down to see her yet again so you can all dance attendance on her.

She placing your father in an awkward to reach care home was in all likelihood a deliberate act on her part too.

I would seriously consider now not attending the family gathering in December for the full weekend. No good to you will come of attending such a thing either and why does your mother want two such events in December?. You people give her yet more gooey narcissistic supply, that is why.

@HoraceGoesBonkers oof. In your shoes I wouldn’t attend the extra gathering, if necessary pointing out your sister’s cancer and travel problems repeatedly. She’s getting one (and is lucky to get one) gathering already.

@AttilaTheMeerkat The event we're already committed to isn't "her" event, it's a birthday party and fortunately we'll have our own space to retreat into, so it feels a lot more manageable. It'll be nice to catch up with other people at it who I wouldn't see otherwise.

If she kicks off at the birthday party then I'll bin off the second event.

The care home thing has been a nightmare to be honest. There are basically three homes my Dad could have gone into. There's one right next to their house which seemed like the obvious one but it apparently had a bad care inspection report. Then there's a council run one in town and then the Arse End of Nowhere Court, as we call it.

I was completely opposed to AENC as it's a 20 minute drive from their town with shit public transport. But she insisted it had to be there, so of course we then had a big drama last Christmas when they both ended up with covid and she was too sick to drive. It may sound harsh but I dropped the rope and didn't go down - I was really pissed off she'd engineered such a ridiculous situation.

She had claimed Dad was going to go to AENC on a temporary basis until a place came up in the council home, but I found out she'd bought a massive chair for him that wouldn't fit into the council run place. So she'd clearly lied.

Last time I spoke to her she was pretending to consider moving him to the council place (she had a weird story about how she'd only just discovered he needed to be assessed although she also claims she is in touch with them frequently) and I said she should, but then she started telling me Dad wanted to stay in AENC. I haven't managed to get many words out of Dad for years but his is apparently miraculously lucid and vocal when he's with her.

Dad got diagnosed with a degenerative illness about 10 years ago and they did absolutely bugger all to plan for it (you can't plan for old age, apparently). They could have moved to a bigger town where they have friends that's less remote, closer to the hospital and more care home options, but obviously it was much better just to stick their heads in the sand!

Your mother could well make this birthday party her event. Even though you will have space to get away from her be wary of this all the same. You are wise indeed to have decided to bin off the second event if she kicks off.

and of course the nice home apparently had a bad care inspection report🤔 - I would assume she lied about that too. She did not want to be next door to your dad as she probably cannot abide him at all.

@Sicario yep my mum was breathtakingly narcissistic. My father and family know I will not go to the funeral, I made that clear during COVID and since. I won't cause myself the upheaval to get dogs and me on a plane, act like a hypocrite or worse rant like a bastard about why I am NC with all of them except my nieces.
I have been calling my dad each day, he is either bit weepy [totally understand] or seems fine, I want peace for him now. However I have noticed last 2 days my anxiety creeping back in. I will see how it goes on that front but the relief of being free from mothers circus is enormous, zero guilt, I think my explosion January was the end of all feelings about her. I also didn't like my mother, she caused nothing but trouble and deep resentment and hurt.
Oddly adult services called me today to say they were sorry to hear about mum, how was dad doing? They know I am NC so that was strange, probably sizing me up for dads care anytime soon.

The fact you are concerned with not repeating his behaviour means you are a good person and you are aware. ❤️

Quite a few people struggling regarding limiting their contact or whether to go NC.

Has anyone else here been rejected by their mother? My mum was awful as a mum, but was loving to my young children. She rejected me 14 years ago and it just hurts so much.

Sounds so hard for you. Well done for addressing it. If your dad offered family therapy, would you consider that? ❤️

@Lovelemons my mother hasn’t rejected me in terms of initiating low/NC - the opposite in fact as she can’t do without her scapegoat(s) but she has rejected me many, many times by saying she wished she’d never had me, she wished [specified person] was her daughter and not me - many, many comments on those lines. I know it’s not the same but hearing that said again and again in cold blood, and then when questioning it being called “wicked” or “evil” for remembering she said it but having it calmly affirmed that she did mean it does something to you. It’s really horrible. Hugs to you for your situation. I find most rejection hard to cope with but when I was having an outsized reaction to my boyfriend of two years ghosting me my DGM would always say “if they don’t want me, I don’t want them”. If your mother can bring herself to reject a daughter for fourteen years, she’s not a fit mother, it’s no reflection on you.

Greetings Stately Homers. In Wales working on a project and have brought mr Monkey along as he needs a break from his vile mother The Hag. He’s very LC now and has had counselling. Of course, he doesn’t tell her we’re going away as she’ll do the guilt trip and general spite. So this morning his Dickhead brother (Slave Son) rings saying The Hag is out of breath and really ill. “You need to ring her as you never phone her” total guilt trip from the dick who’s allowed her to wreck his life. So, MM rings her. There is no breathlessness as she’s pretty able to shriek down the phone.
”where are you?
“I’m in Wales as Monkey is working here”
”what does she do again?”
(I freelance in media - Mr Monkey and I have been together for nearly 20 years and she does know, but prefers to believe that I sponge off Mr M)
so, surprise, surprise she’s not dying. She simply has a cold, not even a bad one, so there’s no need to dash home and sit at her death bed. Funnily enough, she’s not been out of breath or coughing the last time MM saw her. Complete drama designed to wrangle MM back into the narc triangle. Which doesn’t work.
we had, of course (!) the
“I’m going to throw myself in the river”
(I wish she would) every day I learn something more about MM’s horrid childhood. The revelation today was that she’d tell him that and add “so you’d have to go into a children’s home” She is absolutely vile and just needs to die. She’s 87 in March so I have everything crossed.
MM is depressed and going back to counselling. Frankly, he needs to bill the Bitch for the expensive counselling that he’s having for complex PTSD.

@MonkeyfromManchester nice to “see” you again but sorry to hear about the situation still not having changed a huge amount :( “I’m going to throw myself into a river” is utterly awful behaviour and please don’t feel bad for wanting her to do it, I have a feeling certain people are kept alive by spite and other nasty motivations.

I was only posting on a thread the other day how when narcissists or other manipulative people say that they are about 99% certain not to do it at all - my mother used to threaten to hurt herself during the epic three-day arguments my parents would have and back it up by holding to her arm a pair of nail scissors. It’s REALLY difficult to damage yourself with nail scissors! She never threatened to kill herself but very often said she was leaving and actually did leave… to my nana’s down the road, but my autistic child brain never understood it was an empty threat and that is still causing problems for me despite copious therapy, my (new, hi Stately Homes, I have somehow acquired a boyfriend!) DP says the only time I annoy him is when I’ll spin a call out or ask him not to leave because I’m terrified he’ll never come back.

I understand you and Mr Monkey can’t really go any more LC than you are but it really sucks for you that you’re still having to play this game in (I assume, sorry if I’m wrong) your 50s. We really should be able to bill them for our therapy. My parents, who own two valuable houses and one of whom earns half a million a year, sent me to a private psych ward semi-against my will and insisted I give them all my savings when I went in (I think you all had the story when it happened) and now charge me almost every penny I get in sick pay as “rent” so I can’t save up. My contribution to the rent should be about half my sick pay but it also includes council tax, which I have not had to pay for the past two years. My mother even texted me in the psych ward to say she needed money to pay for her two horses, who she boards with a professional competition rider.

Finally best wishes to MM re the complex PTSD, it’s a bitch to deal with (on top of the other Bitch he has to deal with). If this gives you any hope, my DGMs are all mid-late 80s and have all had a sudden decline in health recently. I hate saying that because I love my DGPs but it’s a fact of life. I think it’s completely normal to have very mixed feelings about the death of a narcissist relative - I love my mother but I can’t say it won’t be a relief and a freeing one if she predecessors me - and 87 is good innings, or bad innings used to do evil if you prefer…

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau thank you for that wisdom. Your boyfriend sounds great and, like many people who’ve survived abuse, that fear of being left is really common. Mr Monkey feels he’s unloveable. He’s not.

yep, the narcs would never actually Kill themselves; it’s just another strategy for sucking people in.

Not havjng the best time as the Hag has ramped up the shit further by another call of illness. Now MM has involved 111 which is really sensible. But his dickhead brother is incapable of calling them or going round to the Hag’s lair 10 mins drive away to assess the situation whilst we are 90 miles away. Unbelievable.

we’re just waiting to ring her after she’s had telephone triage. I think, frankly, we should just go home rather than have her piss on our weekend as those calls are NOT going to stop. Anybody kind would think
“I’ll let my son enjoy his holiday as I do have another son here. Son on holiday is back tomorrow.”

FFS.

she’s going to be overjoyed when she’s told she’s spending Xmas on her own in her lair and NOT coming to my mum’s. Alas, I’ll have to deal with her for a couple of hours on NYD but that’s what wine was invented for.

I’ve also told MM that under NO circumstances if she’s ill is she coming to stay at ours. After being told by the bitch that I only thought about myself last Xmas she’s never coming into our house for longer than 2 hours. Her level of entitlement is off the scale.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau that’s awful re the £. They have weaponised money and are using it to control & punish you.

hag would be better off dead. She labours under the illusion that she’s a good Irish catholic but all the evil she’s done in her life will lead her straight to hell.

dreadful woman. Anyway, I’ve got my CBD drink and I’m looking at the sea from my room.

fibgers crossed on a speedy decline for the witch.

@MonkeyfromManchester - if you absolutely must have her for 2 hours on NYD, I hear there's a very good Australian recipe for beef wellington with special mushrooms.

@Sicario 🤣🤣🤣 looking up the recipe now.

So, she's now in hospital. It's a lung infection.

Slave Son, aged 60 something, was INCAPABLE of anything - as he's been totally emasculated by her - so Mr Monkey yesterday standing in the garden of our hotel 90 miles in Wales instructs Slave Son in Manchester to go round to the Hag’s lair (10 minutes drive away) and call 999 as she was really breathless in one of the many calls yesterday.

Hag is taken into hospital.

We end our weekend away, arriving back to Manchester at 7.30pm, we buy much wine, Mr Monkey goes to the hospital after eating - although there was, of course, some calls from The Hag demanding where he was - and he was there until 3.15am when she was given a bed.

Hag is now in hospital for the next few days. Proud of MM that he's said he'll ‘duties’ today - minimal, pack her a bag - but after today as it's a working week, Slave Son needs to take over.

I'm very proud of him putting the boundaries he's learnt into practice.

Hilariously, in all the clusterfuck of getting the Hag into a ward in the early hours, Mr Monkey picked up her mobile so Hag can't ring him.🤣 We’re having a leisurely breakfast and we’ll go to the hospital when we’re ready to. (like never)

I'm going to the hospital to back him up and if there are any conversations about after-care it will be made very clear that she's not being released here. VERY CLEAR.

Good for you @MonkeyfromManchester . I’m sorry to hear she’s had to be admitted and that Mr Monkey had to hang about for all that time. I think you’ll know this but really be assertive about how you just cannot have her with you both and the impact it’ll have on Mr Monkey’s MH (and yours ofc). It feels dreadful to tell you that but it has to be said and the hospital will likely be wanting to clear her out as soon as they can if she has family.

@Sicario 😂😂 beef Wellington and mushrooms
@MonkeyfromManchester you have super human restraint and strength. My mum passed away last week, so I won't be needing those COVID infested bats or the asps now. I hope that doesn't inconvenience you at all. You could maybe take them in to the hospital. Even though NC since January, I finally feel free.

Hello, I'm sorry for hijacking I'm not sure this is the right thread for me but if not I'm hoping one of you would you be able to point me in the right direction.

It isn't my family that is the issue it's DP, he had an extremely abusive childhood and has been the black sheep of the family since way before we were together but in the last 10 years he's been mostly NC with his abusive parents. For the last few years things have mostly been okay with low ish contact but recent events have caused NC again.

He's struggling to process his thought/feelings about it all and it's now affecting us. I'm so angry at that for how they've treated him and their behaviour but I can't vent to him because he needs my support