September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@Janetsmug I’m really sorry to hear that - and addressing @AtTheEndOfMyToothbrush‘s response as well, I was more discussing the pros and cons of how you respond to your mum’s neglect (via enablement) rather than the severity of it and the effect on you. NC can have cons as well as pros though and sometimes it’s not worth the fallout, but in this case Janet it sounds like it probably will be, although it remains your decision to make. I know how angry and upset I was with my dad because he enabled to the extent of only intervening when my mother was about to hit me in the face with a corkboard and ignoring the fact that I self-harmed and had an eating disorder from an incredibly young age, and according to my DP who has had a good upbringing with nice parents he talks to me “like I’m nothing”. However, he is on a different scale in a different league to my mother and is very good and generous about helping me with things like moving, he’s nice about my DP and he occasionally makes points like “we paid for [golden child] to live abroad for a year, maybe we could help Cecile pay for a train to Yorkshire to visit her relative?” Or “it’s possible that Cecile knows the cat better than we do given that she spends all day every day with it…” so I wouldn’t cut him out although I’d love to go NC with my mother.

Sorry, it’s your choice though. I’m also sorry I use so many personal anecdotes, it’s how I reason things through, not one-upmanship I promise! Im glad you’ve found this thread but sad you’re going through a bad time. The other posters usually have heaps of good and sensible advice :)

@Janetsmug - once you see it, you can't unsee it, right? It's horrible.

You were failed by your mother. Sure, she probably had her reasons, even if those reasons were along the lines of she couldn't cope with the truth or even admit it to herself. But still the result was the same. You suffered serious harm due to bad parenting. None of this was your fault. You should have been protected and you weren't.

It is completely normal to have confusing and conflicting feelings towards parents who have damaged us.

It was only after my mother died (last year) and the FOG had cleared that I realised I didn't like her at all. She was a shit parent and I got the brunt of it as the scapegoat. I had gone NC with my entire FOO (family of origin) some years ago, mainly due to my highly toxic sister.

Unpacking your feelings about your mother will take time, but listen closely to yourself, and do whatever is right for you. You might need to go VLC (very low contact) while you examine your feelings, then decide what is best for you.

PP mentioned keeping a list. I think this is important and has worked for me when the inevitable doubt of your own decisions or your mind is confused with a new event / development / comment.

Keeping a bullet point list allows you to see the totality of incidents over the years, the patterns and the compounding impact of one on another on your emotional well-being.

Its important because:

Our traumatised minds don’t catalogue each incident memory clearly, sequentially or process them to quantify the impact objectively. They pop up as emotional flash backs randomly, some get ‘forgotten’ - but ‘the body keeps the score’ - our subconscious knows accurately what we carrying even if we are repressing it.

The list helps us see the reality of a new ‘confusing’ incident when we are stuck in ‘relentless hope’ - we can then know it’s exactly what we thought it was and not some misunderstanding.

Bullying often works this way - just enough of a dig / insult under the belt/radar to hurt you but done in a way of ‘plausible deniability’ so you could look unhinged if you snapped back.

But it’s the number and nature of incidents that tells you that everything they do is an attack whether overt or covert.

Keep the list written down and close at hand.

I also agree that ‘grey rock’ and LC are exhausting and you are always hyper-alert in protection mode ...... and this is often unsustainable so slips to NC which can be a relief and devastating at the same time - because it’s not natural to have to ‘manage’ or ‘tolerate’ a relationship - when any loving relationship should be easy, radiant and reciprocal - and it’s important that we look for kindness and respect elsewhere in other relationships / friendships in our lives to sustain our hearts and souls. And compare how different individuals treat us.

Janetsmug

What happened to you here was not your fault in any way; that is all on the perpatrators i.e your mother and stepfather.

You were also failed by your mother on so many levels. She is her husband's secondary enabler and abuser and she cannot be relied upon at all either. I'd personally have no further contact with either your stepfather and she going forward. In a straight fight she would choose and indeed has chosen him over you.

@Janetsmug i can’t relate to you so much with regards the dawning horror of the reality of your childhood. I’m so sorry but it’s such a horrific realisation. Would you believe it was my therapist who had to actually tell me that my childhood was abusive? I knew it was a violent one and an upsetting one, but abusive? That was one of the most upsetting things I have experienced. However, the validation and healing that came from it was indescribable, almost four years later I feel so much better.

The reality that our parents, the people who are meant to protect us, are actually harmful to us is an awful truth to come to terms with but it’s necessary for better physical and mental health. Do whatever is right for you and, again, I’m sorry you’re going through this.

@Janetsmug also, forgot to mention this. The enabling parent is sometimes even harder to come to terms with. I used to pity my father for having such a horrible wife and he would often acknowledge that her behaviour was not right but would encourage me to apologise etc to “be the bigger person and keep the peace”. Through therapy I learned just how toxic and abusive he was in my life. He placed his needs and my mother’s needs before anything else. He was a useless father in all the ways that matter. Your mother failed you and didn’t protect you and that’s awful.

Many apologies @Janetsmug and all others if this comes off as taking away from what you’re going through, but am I alone in finding it actually quite reassuring realising that it’s been abusive all my life and still is? Not in terms of feeling better about my current situation but because you finally realise you’re not insane, it’s not totally your fault, it’s not normal etc. I resist this feeling to a certain extent because deep down (and relatively shallowly down) I have absolutely zero self-worth but realising/hearing that you’re not evil, someone else is mistreating you is more comforting to me.

I agree about the enablers - the abuser sometimes you can write off as a totally unhinged wrong ‘un - so maybe with a PD etc.

But the so called enabler is evil hiding in plain sight - either they have zero moral fibre to step up for justice and protection of a child - or they continue to manipulate to make you do the apologising / be the peacemaker - just to save their own skin - they are the ones who are throwing you under the bus repeatedly to avoid their own discomfort.

Enablers are the people (close to you) who know what the abusers did, overlook it and don't hold the abusers fully accountable.

Enablers are the people (close to you) who shield the abusers from full consequences and moral blame.

Their job is to convince you and even gaslight you to take the abuse.
Their job is to convince you not to hold the abuser morally accountable.
Their job is to convince you to maintain the system the way it is.
Their job is to teach you to have low self-esteem.
Their job is to convince you not to report.
Their job is convince you that you are also to blame.

Once you leave or go no contact, their job is to convince you to go back to the abuse and abusive system.

If you finally blow up at your abuser or stand up to the abuser, their job is to shame you and convince you that you are just as morally guilty as the abuser now. You are not a full victim.

Their job is to teach you to be stupid and basically teach you to kiss the abuser's ass.

Their job is to gaslight you and even tell you that you are the "better" or morally superior person for not holding the abuser accountable/letting them get away with it.

Their job is to make excuses for the abuser and convince you that you should tolerate the abuse because of these excuses; convince you to forgive because of these excuses.

Their job is to minimize what the abuser did and invalidate the extent and gravity of what happened to you.

@AttilaTheMeerkat what you just wrote has validated what I knew was going on in a different part of my life (already non contact with parents but goodness it applies to them too)!
Reading that confirms that what I thought was going on, is definitely a thing (another volunteer at an organisation has been doing subtle digs etc but no-one other than me seems to notice....). I'm not sure whether enablers are sometimes intimidated by abusers and choose the path of least resistance, or whether they genuinely don't see things from any other viewpoint that's not the abuser's lens.

Bad evening.

My DGM (mother’s MIL) had a massive heart attack this morning.

My parents were due to visit tomorrow and the day after anyway. My mother hates her MIL.

My mother came home having a huge sulk and got stuck in to the wine. After a lot of digs at me via my boyfriend (I’m pretty housebound atm and our dates are mostly just naps or watching TV out of mutual preference) - would (BF) prefer it if you got dressed up? Isn’t a young man like him bored with you? Wouldn’t he prefer it if you took him out? She started watching TV with us. Then she announced that because I had said I planned to have a couple of very short outings, to chapel round the corner and maybe to my DP’s for an hour or so which he’s said is a problem in the relationship that I don’t go out, she would be staying at home. I hate being at home with her, she terrifies me and if I leave the house for any reason she will be in my bedroom, going through my stuff, photographing it, rearranging it and stealing it sometimes. This terrifies me because I’m autistic but as anyone with this sort of mother knows, replying that that was the reason I would only leave the house if she wasn’t there would have only made her angrier. As it was she managed to go from quietly spiteful to outright shouting in about sixty seconds. My dad and I were both asking her to lower her voice. However, I could see our new rescue cat looking terrified and cowering a bit as her voice got louder. She is horrendously jealous that the cat likes me more than her, cat is always trying to get into my room, loves playing with me, sleeping on my bed etc which is unsurprising as I cat sit her all the time she’s awake. One of the things my mother said was that last time I was looking after cat I hadn’t cleaned her tray for 24 hours. I had done so twice in front of boyfriend and then checked last thing at night. I said let’s call him and see shall we, at which point she really went mad and started shouting I AM BEING THREATENED IN MY OWN HOUSE and then my dad actually laughed. I was very upset, picked up the cat and went to calm down with her in my room (to the accompaniment of PUT THAT FUCKING CAT DOWN. Both the all caps are verbatim.

I don’t think I need to set out why this was so upsetting, but I’m definitely getting a firmer and firmer grasp on certain things daily. My mother is motivated by jealousy to an absurd extent - my dad says she’s scared but I don’t believe it any more, I think she’s just envious and grasping. She does so many things purely for show. The two worst things are just the extent of the control and how it becomes more and more apparent every day. The way she can easily control herself around anyone she isn’t related to really does show me that she knows exactly what she’s doing and how it affects people, how other people would see it etc. I can’t even imagine that mindset.

Hello all, I've namechanged about a gazillion times and have posted on previous threads. I won't bore everyone with the details again.
What's struck me tonight is similarities of other's parents with their need to keep telling us off well into adulthood and past menopause. I mean who do they actually think they are?
The PP who mentioned being told off for using red pen and her parents demanding to know the reason, as if it meant something snidey....well that could have been written about my own parents there. Always picking on things I did and said and trying to accuse me of wrongdoing for a perceived (paranoid) slight. They are honestly such dickheads and it's taken me to age 46 to not actually give a shit. I had a bad wobble this month, pining and felt terrible about NC, but I'm back on track being the badass bitch who never deserved their crap and definitely won't take it anymore.
It certainly sharpens the mind when your own adult children say, 'well they aren't normal are they', when referring to your own parents.
Children are very astute.

Re: illness thing, yep if you mentioned you were ill or felt ill, my mother would shun me and tell me to go away and not tell her about. 'I don't DO illness.' she would say.

Virtual hugs to all here, we are hurt children being made stronger adults by each other💖🌸💪

Edit: I'm also autistic. It's taken me years to realise how I've been treated and I'm absolutely livid with them!

@notactuallyweirdthanks very astute post, thanks. Empathy for the illness thing, I bizarrely now get told off for things like walking miles in shoes that make my feet bleed - what the fuck did they think was going to happen when they taught me to ignore how I felt?

thankyou @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau 🌸💖

Sorry @notactuallyweirdthanks sbould have said more about what you posted - loads of sympathy and virtual hugs. Hang around, there are so many lovely clever people on here.

I completely agree with everything you posted. The similarities are amazing when we have been made to feel so very alone. I am 59, how dare they rebuke me for nonsensical slights.

@Gloriously

re: keeping a list of incidents

For years I was stuck with what you said; emotional flash backs popping up randomly while other things got forgotten or in my case I often minimised things too.

My body has kept score as I had many physical health issues that are classically driven by anxiety, stress or depression. Panic attacks, muscle and joint aches, palpitations, insomnia, severe headaches, numbness and tingling, stomach aches - some of these became quite severe and I began to explore ways to treat them myself as the Gp had given me many medications and I thought there might be alternatives. What started out as self treatment with yoga, nutrition, hypnotherapy and meditation led to me understanding that my body is holding on to a lot of emotion. This then led to getting a therapist. It still took years to learn what was happening to me and what the cause could be.

The “just enough of a dig / insult under the belt/radar to hurt you but done in a way of ‘plausible deniability’ so you could look unhinged if you snapped back” was probably the biggest trauma for me. Like you mentioned it was the number of incidents over my entire childhood and adult years that cause my body to freak out. In hindsight my body had been doing this for a while but I was too young to realise. I used to have debilitating stomach aches as a kid and used to spend hours curled up into a ball in bed.

I only made a list a few years ago and it took about 6 months of daily journaling to surface all the things that happened. A particularly toxic sibling had bullied me at our fathers funeral. He then followed this up with occasional phone calls acting as if he is seeing how I’m doing but then having subtle digs at me and sending messages that included jokes or memes that would also be having a dig at my life choices. As I journaled this all, I also started journaling what happened before.

I now have a bullet point list - the list made me go NC with this brother who I was very low contact with previously. It also highlighted to me how much of an enabler my mother had been - I am LC with her now, which is tough.

@tonewbeginnings similar experience here. My DP recently remarked that my mother (btw he says that’s posh but I call her that because DM - no chance, mum - too cosy and maman, her preferred one - very pretentious) cannot go a single sentence without insulting my dad. This isn’t strictly true because every few sentences she throws in something that is upsetting or insulting to me but only in context. It gets to the point that it’s almost Pavlovian, my mother can do a certain look or leave a certain amount of silence and my dad and I know she’s angry and we’re getting it in the neck later, while my dad will say “what have I done now” or some such.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau that sounds awful and you shouldn't have to put up with that. Do you still live with your parents? Is there a way you can move out so you're not as exposed to their toxicity?
Your partner sounds supportive which is good. Hope you're able to spend some time with them today and away from your mother.
(I recognise why you call your mother 'mother', I used to call mine 'the mother' because she wasn't deserving of anything more affectionate, and I didn't see her as 'my mother' as that would suggest a relationship.

Just need a little support from those who understand. Mum (She hated that
and wanted to be Mummy even when I was an adult. I couldn't call her Mummy, even Mum felt somehow too affectionate, so I never actually knew what to call her to her face, afraid of being told off) Sorry, on a tangent!
My Mum I've recently realised, was narcissistic. Everything was about her, sacrificing everything to love (smother?) me and bring me up well (and she did, I've turned out ok and am grateful for that), always the victim, the martyr, making me feel guilty.
She has just died of end-stage Dementia and I'm finding it hard to deal with all the sympathy. My work have given me 2 weeks off with compassionate leave-i dont feel I need it but would have to argue to go back, they think they're being kind, I've lost a parent! Surely I'm devastated?? I know I'd feel differently if it were my DH or Child or even friends, so its not something wrong with me.
I have such wonderful friends (who knew what she was like) but I feel like a fraud. Losing a Mother is supposed to be such a big loss but 1. She was awful 50 % of the time and 2. with Dementia I feel I've done any grieving over the past 5 years, when she was no longer able to go out by herself, brush her teeth or hair, forgot who everyone was (A moment of clarity when she said "Ive lost you, ive lost myself" was particularly hard).
Just wondering if anyone here can relate (no siblings)?

@SoftandQuiet we appear to have had similar tangents today re what you call your mother! I’m sorry for your loss but I totally understand the mixed feelings. My suggestion would be perhaps to use the time off to give yourself the priority and care your mother never gave you, while reminding yourself you’re not a bad person for not grieving excessively. Remember, people had to wear black for months when Queen Victoria died and I doubt most of them were very close to her! Compassionate leave is a legal right and your employers are giving it to you not because your mother deserves two weeks of mourning (side note: people we really love who are worth mourning would surely take more than two weeks?!) but because they’re obliged to and also it’s the “done thing”.

Thankyou Cecile that’s really helpful.
I’ve read back a few of your posts and send you solidarity and hope you will be able to move out of your parents home soon. So glad the cat is giving you the love you deserve.

Thanks @SoftandQuiet. I’m so lucky at the moment with little DCat, my boyfriend and a couple of other loyal friends. Tbh animals are often even more important in terms of validation etc because they don’t lie - if they like you, it’s because you’re being kind to them and improving their lives and they never have a hidden agenda.

Again lots of sympathy for what must be an emotional minefield. xx

Hello @SoftandQuiet it's difficult when your situation isn't what people expect. There are so many societal expectations, but what you feel and how you are experiencing things are completely valid. Most of us who post/read here will recognise and validate your feelings and how you are responding.
The two weeks off work might be helpful for working through some thoughts about what you should have had in terms of family and parents, or could you book a last minute break and go lie on a beach and get some sunshine?

@SoftandQuiet totally get it. My mum passed this week, my dad called and tbh I didn't know what to say. I went NC January, it had been building up for a few years. My mum totally selfish, spiteful narcissist. My dad a weak enabler.
I honestly feel nothing, relief if anything. I can now draw a line under it. She blighted my life and now I am free of her.
I will check in daily with dad by phone because I am a good person. I won't fool myself we will ever be close again but I am hoping his last few years he will finally get some peace in his life.