September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Sometimes you have to leave them to it you can’t heheh someone else love you or hear your opinion if they don’t want to. When I pointed out a rude comment (it was valid and relating to refugees ) I got an email she didn’t understand why I found it offensive (well because it was ) she was only joking and end of subject hasn’t spoken to me or her grandchildren
since it’s their loss not yours x

@BlastAroundTheOutside I find the gossip thing very irritating. I should let it just wash over me but I know tell her very little. Like she seemed to be repeating anything I said about a hobby to someone I didn't know at all. Stuff gets twisted to make it more dramatic.

The absolute worst one was when we were having a family crisis. It was a horrible time following a bereavement. I don't want to be too outing but it involved me explaining something to her about a younger relative facing a difficult situation and asking her to promise not to contact the relative's father. I told her for a very specific reason, in that I thought she might be able to help the relative.

So of course she was completely unable not to shit stir and phoned him a day later to have a "wee chat". It ended up with the younger relative, who had already been through such a lot with the bereavement, being shouted at by him, I had to offer to go and get her (it was the middle of winter and several hours away). She then pretended she hadn't know she'd done anything wrong. I was so angry and didn't speak to her for a few weeks.

It was only much later on that she tried to get me to disclose more stuff about the younger relative and I told her that I wasn't going to discuss anything further with her that she apologised. So basically she was only sorry that there was a consequence for her.

I think it was at that point that I really started ramping down contact - things had been awful enough without her starting pointless dramas.

@CrazyCatLady13 agree with what others have said. This is an extremely hurtful and hard thing to go through. I had a similar experience with my siblings nudging me out when my father died. It is very isolating to grieve like this.

The funeral was very difficult for me as I am the only person in my family who has married outside my race so it wasn’t only my siblings excluding me but also some of my parents wider community of friends and relatives. I had also had a baby a few months before so I was quite overwhelmed by everything.

I feel much better 4 years on and have gone much lower contact or NC with much of my family. In hindsight, I wish I had given myself more space, time and self compassion. All I can say is to do that - be kind to yourself and don’t let toxic people in.

This thread has been a lifesaver for me. From not feeling so alone, to recognising patterns by hearing other people’s experiences to getting advice or tips and venting to get things out of my head.
🙏

Oh and you will be shocked to discover when I had a go at my mum for dumping the relative in the shit she phoned other people and complained about me being nasty to her.

Thank you. Your post sums it up perfectly, it’s like you are putting all of that effort in to play them at their own game but they’ll always win as they are the expert player, you just cause yourself stress and upset in the process. Something has to give, I know she won’t change so I have to keep myself away as much as possible. Recent events properly opened my eyes to her behaviour and reading these threads is like someone switched a light on and I can see all of her past treatment of me for what it was. Every time I questioned it before I just sort of buried it like I was in some sort of denial. I’ll just have to see how it pans out with my dad and brother but be prepared that they could be acting on her behalf.

I’m glad you have found some peace and I hope your husband’s treatment went well. Thank you again. Your post has rung a lot of bells.

@HoraceGoesBonkers yes I did learn quite young that any thing I told my mum privately would end up being told to whoever would listen. Not as serious as your experience, something I was embarrassed about when I was about 10 made it’s way to my cousin (who is roughly the same age)who then took the mickey out of me over it. Even as an adult I’d worry about my partner letting something slip in front of her that I didn’t want her to know.

@BlastAroundTheOutside similar experience here. I really don’t like her taking against other people, which is a futile endeavour really because anyone I like is going to end up on the wrong side of her, so I don’t say anything bad about anyone. Unfortunately she’s very invasive and I’m very conflict-avoidant and honest so she gets occasional things out of me. She also will search through my stuff and take pictures of me, my letters, my belongings. My boyfriend was staying over the other day and we were using the sofa bed in the guest room and stumbled on a plastic wallet hidden under the mattress of printed photos, diary entries and letters she’s written to my GP or doctors to inform them of the “truth”. Quite a lot of it was made up.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau your mother is batshit crazy. She is a stalker, I hope you took that folder home you to shred, I am speechless at that level of intrusion.

My mother went though all my stuff on a regular basis even when I was over 18 and paying them rent if something was locked she would try and break the lock . On being told she shouldn’t do it the response was , it’s my house I will do what I want

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau That's awful. I'm sure the doc etc must get all sorts of crazy messages and will just ignore her.

Mine also liked a good snoop. When I was a teenager she demanded to know what the pills were she found in my room were, in a very accusing manner. They were for dissolving in contact lens solution so I didn't get calcium spots on my lenses, which I'm fairly sure she had been told about but forgotten about, and then had obviously leapt to the conclusion they were ecstasy or contraceptives or something.

@HoraceGoesBonkers one GP I’ve seen at my practice (I’m a frequent flyer) told me that they put all this sort of correspondence on the system and that they assume it’s true because “there is normally a reason behind sending this sort of letter”. My named GP who has been seeing me regularly for years, on the other hand, says “nobody is in the state you’re in if they’ve had a caring upbringing”. It varies from doctor to doctor.

Hello
I am new to this thread
I have a selfish mother who idolised my brother and treated me like competition ridiculing me putting me down , and a father who never stood up for me .
My mother repeatedly disliked and mistreated my boyfreinds and now my husband.
Her mother , my grandmother was very vocal about her dislike for me from my childhood .
I have family resemblance to a black sheep .
Complex family trauma in my Dad's childhood .
Financial support given to my brother but never to me .
My brother treats me very poorly and now his teenage daughter does the same , its been unbearably painful for me as I have been I life long people pleaser. I am 53 and two years ago had to walk out of a well paid job due to being severely bullied by colleagues(what a surprise ) I haven't managed to return to the same wage earning since .
This is the second year I have refused to spend Xmas with my family. Last year it was polite refusal this year it is obviously plain refusal.
My question for you is this
what do I tell my teenage son's?
Who would like to see their grandparents and cousins . I have maintained veneer of happy families for the sake of my sons , for year's but I leave family gatherings with a weird feeling of numb dissociation, which hovers for days and can turn to deep depression.
I can't do it any longer, I feel.selfish
And also dont want to pass on this toxic shit to my sons
Any advice please
Xmas is so hard
.

Have your DCs seen, heard or sensed you being stressed around your family? Have they seen, heard or sensed their great grandmother, grandparents, uncle and cousin belittle you and their DF?

Ask then. You might be surprised. They might also be the target of passive aggression and sneering.

It was only after a final fall out with my siblings that my own DCs spoke up about how they were treated badly by their aunts as children behind my back whilst I had been trying to hold it all together for their sakes.

We now have extra fabulous Xmases on our own - since I have taken us all out of punching distance. They arrange to see their cousins directly as they are now teenagers. All good.

Oh my sons have definitely been victim to passive aggressive sneering , and being put down and talked about critically .
When I challenged my brother and parents about this they denied
My eldest son who rebelled slightly during covid has since been labelled a delinquent, I've been so angry , my 'tiger' mum.wants to defend my son and protect him from this shit
It's so hard to accept how horrid they are but it's the final nail in the coffin
Hence refusal to engage at xmas
But still hard
Why do the people who are supposed to love you the most treat you so poorly .

@Whoknewitwasthishard it is because others aren’t socially obliged to love you or engage with you. They have to win and keep the approval of friends and acquaintances but you’ll keep having to come back to them.

Be blunt and overt with your DC - role model that you should calmly, actively walk and not engage with people who are less than pleasant and kind. Teach them that we have zero need to tolerate bad behaviour - that Fear Obligation and Guilt are the wrong reasons to tolerate bad behaviour.

@Whoknewitwasthishard they do it because it makes them feel in control and important. They rarely have friends outside the family as no one else would put up with their bullshit. They like conflict and drama, they feed off it.
Family dynamics are set in stone, it is manipulative.
We know deep down their behavior is not normal. I found this thread and I could have written most the posts myself, they all seem to follow a pattern of abusive manipulation.
I went no contact with my family in January, sounds drastic but eventually it was the only way to get any peace in my life.
There is a great analogy on here about boat rocking, I decided to just get out the boat.
Welcome to 'Stately homes'

@Whoknewitwasthishard you’ve decided not to spend Christmas with your parents, brother etc and often making a decision like this is one of the hardest parts. You’re not selfish but both intelligent and caring to make this decision as it not only affects you but also your children and partner.

in terms of guilt or feeling left out at Christmas, could you make your own Christmas plans with your husband and kids? You can explain to them briefly that you’re not spending Christmas at the grandparents (they might even be relieved) and then spend more time planning your own special Christmas with them.

I made this decision as well, when my kids were quite young, so I didn’t have to explain much to them but the new traditions we came up with have been amazing for our little family. My kids never say they want to spend Christmas with extended family, even though that’s what many of their friends do. They also start looking forward to it from September so clearly the traditions we made have become something to look forward to! For myself too, as I used to dread visiting my family.

in terms of people pleasing behaviour or guilt, I found writing down the toxic behaviour, situations and bullying I had to deal with over my childhood and adult years helped. Seeing everything that happened written in black and white was shocking as before I had minimised everything that happened in my head. It’s also a reminder for me when I’m feeling weak.

i also empathise with your work situation - I have in the past been vulnerable to bullying or even jeopardise opportunities as I never felt good enough. I went no contact with two siblings and their families a few years ago, I also went LC with one sibling and my mum a few years ago. I cried a lot during the time I wrote my experiences down and acknowledged what my family is really like. The acknowledgment set of a period of grieving for the family I never had but wanted. It sounds cliched but a few years on, having cleared out the negative relationships there is more space for good things. My work situation is changing and I finally feel like a leader rather than a victim in my life and work.

It’s an ongoing process to come out of this and I’m still healing. The type of trauma talked about on this thread causes a lot of psychological damage - low self esteem, low confidence, guilt, depression and anxiety can all attract further trauma from not only our own families but work, friends and our wider social circle. Which is why it’s so important to start to acknowledge it, process it, break cycles, heal and thrive rather than survive. All of us here are on this journey, so you’re not alone 🤗

its amazing the lengths these people will go to. I know mine used to snoop and will read anyones letters if she gets the chance.

Writing to your Doctors is another level. It’s like there is nothing they will stop at to get everyone believing their “truth”. Seems so unfair that we’ve been lumbered with these people sometimes

Those who know me will know this is a minor issue, but it’s very straw breaking the camel’s back and I’m afraid I have to bring it to the thread.

We’ve just adopted a little rescue cat and as I’ve got the job of looking after she’s got very attached to me, lots of playing with me and sleeping on my bed etc (she’s on it at the moment :) I feel honoured). Our previous deceased cat was pretty close to my mother as she took him with her and he was also much more compatible with her personality - he was a massive quite aggressive cat who knew he could bully me. I’m in charge of looking after her but one of my parents is supposed to do the early morning feed and check of the litter tray - despite the recommended amount of cleaning being once a day I’m expected to do it every time she uses it. This is because I’m on meds which make me sleepy through the morning. The cat is chirpy, active, friendly and we’ve really bonded in our first week or so together, which has led my mother to tell me she doesn’t want the cat getting too attached or dependent on me. I’ve got a newish boyfriend who is mildly allergic to the cat but friendly towards her and likes how much I care for her.

Yesterday my boyfriend visited, we hung out on the sofa for a while with the cat and at the normal time I gave her dinner and cleaned her litter tray (time number three that day). When he left, I checked on the cat at about 11 and the tray didn’t smell, so as it was dark and the cat was settled in her basket I didn’t go digging around for wet patches. This morning my DF gave her breakfast and returned to his job running a large company. The cat used the tray obviously (check out the gastro-colic reflex) and I was just waking up when my mother stormed in to tell me how dreadfully irresponsible I was not to clean it and then posted on the family group thread, which includes my sister who is estranged from me and lives abroad, about how negligent we were and the cat is going to start pooping on the floor.

That was this morning, she’s been out all day and just been back to have another go at me. The tray was scrupulously clean as I’ve done it two times since she left this morning (DM not cat). The cat has been asleep on my bed all day, had a good play with me at intervals and DM still managed to make me feel like an animal abuser and trigger all my insecurities that the cat will hate me as well as everyone else. After a nasty lecture she said “I don’t know why we even got a cat”. When my meds have worn off I will literally spend the day as this cat’s slave and I have (TMI) abandoned sex in media res to check the cat hasn’t strangled herself with her wand toy.

Maybe this is an AIBU and I know it’s a really small thing, but after over a year of being completely useless and isolated because of my DM’s treatment of me is it ridiculous to be utterly devastated that she’s even ruining my relationship with the cat and my slight pride that I finally did something that someone appreciated? I’m cat sitting alone this weekend while they visit my sister in Paris and I am scared even to go to church and leave the cat to fend for herself.

Also PS my parents know I get extremely distressed when they argue. My mother adopted a policy of closing the doors to block noise if they fight exactly when the cat arrived. She doesn’t give a damn about how it affects me, she only cares about whether the cat likes her. Bit of an additional slap in the face.

Sorry this is so long!

Not sure whether I really belong here but I'm currently wrestling with whether to go NC with my mother and hoping for some help to unpick it all. I honestly believed I had a really good relationship with her until recently but something happened that led to me to really look at my feelings about her and her behaviour and now it just feels like I keep uncovering more and more layers of shit. It's like I've opened Pandora's box and now it's all spilling out and I can't stop it.

She let me down catastrophically as a child/teenager, essentially turned a blind eye to sexually inappropriate behaviour towards me by my stepfather and dismissed me when I tried to raise it with her. I had fairly successfully managed to push it all down inside me until recently but now it's all come rushing back to the surface and I'm seeing our relationship in an entirely new light and it feels like the whole thing has been a lie.

The narrative in my family has always been that she's a wonderful mother and I suppose I bought into that too so, stupid as it sounds, it's come as a total shock to me that actually she was pretty fucking awful in some ways. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get my head around that at the age of nearly 50 when I always believed the opposite to be true. It's properly messing with my head and I am having therapy but I just wondered if anyone can relate? Is it common to genuinely not realise a relationship is toxic for so long? It's like I've had her on a pedestal all these years and now she's fallen off in spectacular fashion and I have no idea how to cope with it.

There's so much more but this is long enough as it is, just hoping for some support and that someone here might understand how completely lost I feel.

@Janetsmug bless you, that’s really confusing.

I expect the response from the thread will average out to encouragement of no contact and they are super lovely and supportive on this thread. However, it sounds like your mother was enabling of abuse rather than perpetrating abuse. Your post was brief enough that I can’t deduce more from the details but NC is a very big, difficult step and you didn’t say whether you actually wanted to take that step or felt forced to by circumstance.

Your anger and resentment (if it’s that, you might want to give your feelings a different description) are justified. However there’s much more scope to sort things out with an enabler than a primary abuser. Absolute NC with stepfather and you’ll probably have to have difficult conversations with your DM if and only if there’s a bit of that wants the relationship to continue. You’re allowed to go NC and if a sense of obligation and propriety is all that’s stopping you, she lost the privilege of being protected by you when she stopped protecting you. But if she wants to talk and apologise there might be an avenue for reconciliation open.

Please others on this thread correct me if this is bad advice? If the parent has “just” enabled abuse and the child wants to reconcile to any extent, that feels like it might possibly be fixable, because NC takes its own emotional toll. I’m really sorry you’re in this situation and I’m so sorry for the bad things that happened in the past, which were not your fault. You have no responsibility towards your DM. Maybe the most lasting legacy of having someone who is supposed to care for you letting you be abused is the feeling that you’re not worth anything.

Thanks so much for your reply CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, there is more to my reasons for considering NC tbh. The reemergence of all the stuff about my SF has led to me examining other aspects of my relationship with her and I've been genuinely horrified by how unhealthy it is now I really look at it. She relies on me emotionally far more than she should, always has, and can be really manipulative when she doesn't get her own way. I've realised how draining she is, how little I enjoy spending time with her and that she doesn't actually bring anything positive to my life. I feel like I've always been more of a parent to her than the other way round and our family dynamic is that she is fragile and needs to be protected, even when she should really have been protecting me.

I do also have a lot of anger and resentment towards her for not protecting me back then that I've successfully bottled up and ignored for 30-odd years and truthfully didn't know was there until it all got dredged up recently. I think that's what I'm struggling with the most, how have I deluded myself all this time? How is all this coming as such a shock to me, how did I not know all along? It's bad enough that I now feel I didn't really know/see her or the truth of our relationship but worse still that it appears I don't even know myself.

I feel like I've had amnesia or something and waking up to the truth of it all has been like slowly dawning horror, like I'm realising my whole life has been a lie. Up until a few weeks ago I honestly thought I had a good mum and that we were close and now I just keep uncovering layer after layer of shit. I just don't understand how I've been so blind to it.

I'm not an expert but I suspect that when a parent enables abuse it can be (maybe) almost as bad as the abuse itself. It's a very complicated situation but a parent is meant to protect you from harm and when they obviously don't protect you from such serious harm or don't believe you or put someone else in front of you it could be very traumatising.

@Janetsmug I'm so sorry you had to deal with that. I don't have any advice except to be kind to yourself and to do what helps you. If your mum's presence is a constant source of stress and maybe of getting triggered repeatedly then I don't think you would be wrong to go NC.