September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@BluebellsForest sorry you’re going through this. I’ve experienced similar as I was the main caregiver / helper for my mother from age 10 - 30. My adult siblings were (rightly living their lives; having kids travelling etc). My sister would visit for a month each year with her two young kids and I ended up babysitting + household chores. My mother would also prepare for this visit and use all her energy to cook and look after them. I can see that my siblings had their own responsibilities and parenting children is a full time endeavour.

But, since I had kids - the whole conversation has been about I don’t visit enough, I should do this and that for my mother. My mum invents random things for me to do for her since I stepped back after I realised how one way our relationship is. I have done all the shopping, cooking + cleaning when I visit my my mother. She often has other chores lined up for me to do when I visit.

Guess who gets all the praise? And who is the uncaring one?!

My sister, brother and mum are now in a three way drama performance of who has done what for my mother. Brother and sister are competing with each other. Both are agitated from what I can tell from afar and my mum is making it all so much worse! The three of them are all feeding of each others drama and I’m glad to be outside of this.

I think being the scapegoat early on can lead to some realisations about FOO early on. Things started to surface for me in my mid 20s but it took about 5 years to make sense of it (through therapy) then another 5 years to adjust my contact with FOO.

No real advice but I stepped back from it all which helped. I accepted that my childhood caregiving years were what they were - I was too young to have done anything differently and had a lack of a support system plus little awareness. I can make up for lost time by not taking part in the drama now and break a toxic cycle for my children.

I visit my mother 3 - 4 times a year. This can tough but I grey rock. I have allowed myself to cry (on my own) during these visits as much as needed - this has helped a lot. It feels like I am acknowledging my childhood trauma through the crying and letting go of the ongoing treatment / triggers from my mother. My mother has never once acknowledged or mentioned me being a caregiver to her as a child - her ongoing conversation was and still is about how no one cares about her, how hard her life has been and how much she does for everyone. So my self acknowledgement is important and the crying also helps me grey rock successfully as I have a personal outlet.

Hope things get better for you and you figure out a way through it. It’s awful to have to deal with this 🤗

@tonewbeginnings that's my mother, wailing 'nobody cares about her' and the classic 'after everything I have done for you'
She has rewritten her history as a wonderful caring mum! Couldn't be further from the truth.

Thank you so much, @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau, @Getolderbutneverwiser and @tonewbeginnings. Very kind of you. I can't seem to respond to posts atm. Bit brain dead, but thank you.

I fell upon this thread not so long ago after soul searching and trying to find some answers.

For background- only child and live independently with my parents not too far away. I have a bit of a toxic relationship with my mum and my dad just follows her in the background. Not close to any other family although there alive, not too fussed about that as I have a fabulous friend network.

Things have got to the point I've began counselling, I'm emotionally drained from the arguments and harsh words I absorb all to regular. I haven't got the heart to go NC but do think LC may be the way forward.

It gets worse when I have a relationship and I've seen this before but as I get older I don't take as much. Im told they resent DP for moving in with me. They didn't like the fact we didn't meet one another's family in the first few months of our relationship due to DP getting deployed and we just wanted some us time to ensure this would work. Which it has! Since they have met DP a few times but always comment on how they don't come over and are not welcome- I've never said such a thing they don't call me or ring when nearby and when I've tried to make effort to meet them with DP it's a no or I planned a time I knew they was out!? I get told I'm selfish if I work a Father's Day (he's in good health and I am a shift worker) along with birthdays etc. they do not have a social network at all and if I tell them we went for a drink on a day off I get asked where there invite was. The harsh words come out more so when she has a blow out at me.

They have never been the type to come over to my home for dinner but would pop in if passing however I try and make a day a week to spend with them. Apparently this isn't good enough and I'm not family, I get compared to others they see around them and told I'm not like them. That cut deep and I try to keep my reactions minimal. They don't like my DP already has a DC and keep asking to meet them. I'm not there yet they judge and throw comment to anything I say and I feel like I'm always looking for approval.

I feel like im being almost controlled and question everything after I've spoken to them and it's getting too much. I can't call them if im driving, walking, due to be going out. I get told I work too much (it's just a normal full time shift worker job!). I get told im a mug for DP moving in. I get asked if im playing 'mummy's and daddy's' if I tell them im spending the day with DP and DSC. If I try to text instead of call it's not right. I offered to help in the garden (they have a copy of my shifts) and said for them to let me know and I'd come. Instead they did it themselves and stated I never offered and they struggled all on their own. The list could go on and it's started to really get me down.

Am I going bonkers?
I hope not

@LateNightTalk you aren’t going bonkers on your own, but that sort of behaviour could easily drive you mad. Everyone on this thread is encountering difficulties which are so hard to solve. One day a week is very generous (putting it mildly) towards someone who is manipulating and controlling you. LC sounds like a great option. Maybe a couple of closely supervised visits with DSC to keep her quiet and happy, but nothing more. If she can’t treat you properly then she can’t be trusted with a child.

@LateNightTalk i just want to reassure you that you absolutely are not going bonkers! But what I’ve learned is that interacting with toxic, dysfunctional people can make you feel deranged. Your parents are so controlling and their expectations of you, and your relationship, is shocking. They don’t view you as a separate, adult working woman at all, you’re viewed as some incompetent child, or worse, an extension of them. I’m saying this because I can relate to so much of what you are describing. It’s brilliant that you have started therapy, I found it so validating and life changing. I’m currently very low contact with my parents and sibling and it still feels toxic and wrong because once you see and understand this behaviour there’s no going back and unseeing it. I think eventually I will be no contact as it’s not possible to have even a vaguely healthy relationship with people like that. Good luck with the therapy and I’m happy that your starting to recognise that your parents treatment of you is awful and abusive.

My parents told me they didn’t think they were welcome either. It must be a book they read! They also told me off for writing a birthday card in red pen. They actually phoned to ask me what I meant by that, or dad did as he was the bully and always right. The fact that my house was full of that colour of pen was neither here nor there. It’s odd that so many parents behave like this. If I had my time again I would say I’m an adult please speak to me as if I am one and I would stop trying to explain myself to them. I did far too much of that and I regret it deeply. You really don’t need to explain yourself as tbh they won’t listen anyway and you are an Adult and it’s about time they realised that.

Does anyone else just feel sad that their toxic relative just doesn't have their back in the same way normal families seem to? :(

@HoraceGoesBonkers - yes - same as some ‘friends’ who really are ‘frienemies’ ... they are 2 faced and think they are hiding it but it slips out in nuanced ways.

Drop anyone who doesn’t have your back or put them on an information diet.

@doodleZ1 - what you describe is JADE - we should never JADE our decisions, choices, preferences, feelings, boundaries as it diminishes us to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain any of these - especially to characters who oppose us and will just use the extra info in the JADE to attempt to wrangle something - a ‘No’ etc is sufficient or if pushed expanded only to something like ‘because that doesn’t suit me’ ‘that doesn’t work for me’ ‘that’s not what I want to do’ ‘that’s my preference, choice, decision - it’s not up for negotiation/discussion - I have no obligation to explain my reasons to anyone’

Hello

Have posted on these threads before but not for a very long time and not sure if I had the same username.

Very complex and difficult relationship with my parents and by extension my whole family. I'm early 40s, have a happy marriage and teen/pre teen kids. I'm the eldest of four.

Father is a narc, mother an enabler.

My husband's family are fantastic. I'm so grateful for them.

I have two sisters and a brother. Relationship with one sister is strained. The other is close. My brother still lives at home with our parents. He is in his mid thirties.

Siblings were home visiting recently and my parents invited us round for food. My dad can be grumpy and curt and I could overhear him being so with my husband in the next room while we ate.

My husband doesn't understand narc behaviour and continues engaging in good faith with this man who is being rude, condescending, sarcastic, superior, mocking, and cruel.

Basically everything I grew up with. And yes it does still trigger me to hear him behaving like that. I ended up going in to the room and telling my husband we had to leave, which was true. We did leave.

I didn't hear from my parents too much the following week but then this weekend my dad has called me twice which is unusual for him. Once to offer to book and pay for my car to be serviced (which I turned down as I have just had it serviced), to offer to buy me potatoes (I said yes to that but the potatoes have not yet materialised lol), and then another phone call today to gush about how wonderful my husband is and how he had done such a fantastic job plastering a wall for them and it was a work of art and all this OTT crap.

Do you know what? I'm just tired of it. I know this all might sound very trivial but it's the cycle I've lived with my whole life and I'm just exhausted by it. Dad behaves in a disgraceful and rude way, then tries to make up by being generous, lovely dad of the century.

I'm so conditioned that I even feel horrible typing that.

Felt good to get that off my chest. It's Sunday night and I'm lying here worrying about myself and feeling inadequate. I have a good job and my colleagues like and respect me, I have a lovely supportive partner and I'm trying my best to be a good mum.

Someone posted upthread about feeling sad that their toxic relative doesn't have their back and that really resonated. It kills me that I don't have that lovely father daughter relationship so many people have.

I am now in a place where I know it is not my fault i don't have that, but I grew up basically thinking that if only I could behave better or be different that I'd get to the promised land of good relationship with my dad. That's a very damaging experience.

Thanks for reading. This turned into a vent.

@Rebuildingconfidence I found experiencing this same cycle your father does (putting down, being cruel etc then followed by being overly complimentary or seemingly kind) extremely confusing and hurtful. Thinking back it’s also what personally kept me stuck in these toxic relationships as I minimised the bad behaviour and fell for the compliments or gestures.

I finally recognised this a few years ago which seems strange but we’re conditioned with accepting this behaviour since birth so it’s hard to recognise it.

Nothing more to say than it’s an emotional
rollercoaster to be part of a family like this, but we can step of the rollercoaster.

I only get the mean behaviour from my mum but then she does the be nice and help and gush to other people so I get to
see her be nice to other people in front of me while putting mr sign it’s a mother way to stick the knife in

@Rebuildingconfidence - it's part of the cycle of abuse. When they sense they've gone too far, they desperately try to hoover you back in, lest they lose their narcissistic supply. Think of yourselves as puppets in their twisted little theatre. If they lose puppets, they lose characters in their dramas.

All you can do is minimise (or cut off) contact. The rest is completely out of your hands.

@Shortbread49 I think it’s only subconsciously sticking the knife in. They’re putting on an act for people who aren’t “obliged” to stick around so they get positive attention and adulation. For their children, they can’t run so they can terrorise them as they wish. My mother will occasionally stop treating me like shit on her shoe and give me a huge and obviously false compliment, but it’s normally to get me to do something or get me out of a mood that’s annoying to her. I don’t think it’s a personal animus against you, they just think they’re entitled to receive loyalty and admiration so they don’t bother maintaining the relationship on their end.

@tonewbeginnings absolutely empathise with you there. I’ve experienced a lot of that to the extent that I can’t even internalise compliments now and the closest I get is being overwhelmed with joy at being allowed to do jobs for people. I absolutely love it when I go to chapel and I’m allowed to collect the music or put out the candles post-service, for example. If you get treated as an object all your life as well as being consistently told you can’t do anything, it seems like a HUGE privilege to be trusted with anything. I had a lot of difficulties with the concept of employment, the idea that I was trusted to do something and not only that, I’d be paid for it! Overwhelming.

This is such a useful discussion thank you everyone I am over 50 and still surprised if someone says something nice to me it pays me a compliment I automatically think they don’t mean it, I am
memories of my mum getting angry and shouting at people if they paid me a compliment

I've been grey rock-ing and keeping my DM on an information diet for a couple of years now.

She's been trying to stick her nose into a work project that I'm doing in her town. I stupidly, stupidly answered a question she asked me about it and having got a tiny bit of information she's gone around gossiping to all her friends and I think trying to make out she's more involved than she is (I don't want her to have anything to do with my work, at all).

I'm trying not to let it get to me but one of the things I find quite difficult with her is that if she gets any information she will use it to try and make herself the centre of attention!

It is hard because we're socialised into answering direct questions, but anything I let slip becomes a performance and it's exhausting!

Sometimes we slip up - but this example is proof that your strategy is 100% correct - even if you were to doubt yourself (which we are all prone to do after being raised by these types).

They take a lot of effort to hold off and be hypervigilant around - exhausting and often unsustainable - that’s why it’s often necessary to go LC and NC

“Performance” is a really useful word.

It encourages you to observe and sit back in the audience rather than be embroiled in the exaggerated histonics of the characters in the pantomime on stage - all very predictably playing their grotesque roles.

Is it always this exhausting dealing with these people or does it get easier? I’ve recently started with trying to grey rock and go low contact but it just seems like now she’s trying even harder to annoy me or upset me. I stupidly told her a while back what the most hurtful things were so now she goes straight in with those. It just feels like I’m constantly trying to change my behaviour so I don’t tell her anything that can be used against me or just basically just be gossiped about. For instance If she asks a direct question that I’m not happy about I’ll say I don’t want to discuss that at the moment, she’ll then kick off shouting why not, don’t you trust me? Then carry on as if I’m arguing with her so she can say to my dad look how she’s treating me.

Also thanks again for all of the insight shared here. I’ve had a lot of realisations over the last few months but at least now it all makes a lot more sense.

@BlastAroundTheOutside in the main it doesn’t get easier and it gets harder, actually. It depends on the person, but sometimes it’s easy to go grey rock and sometimes it’s more difficult. The first time I went NC my mother not only phoned my boss at work to ask if I was dead and wrote multiple letters to my hospital psychiatrist about how disturbed I was (no shit, I was raised by her) but alienated most of my family from me to the extent that some of them refuse to speak to me to this day. If you and your parents can both deal with grey rock, that’s probably the path of least resistance. Otherwise NC is the only way to avoid intrusive, controlling and above all destructive behaviour, particularly if there are DCs in the equation.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau oh wow it’s mind blowing that a mum would go to those extremes against you.

It did seem to work well at first but I think that’s because she wasn’t expecting it. Now she has planned her response to it and can manipulate it to her favour. I don’t think I have the energy or inclination to try and stay ahead of it, she is always going to win. Think i’m just going to keep my distance for now.

It all just messes with your head so much.

@BlastAroundTheOutside I tried grey rock, it feels so pointless having to police every word. My mum would cry, stamp her feet and wail 'why are you being like this, you are so horrid' so I would hang up the phone= exhausting.

LC even bigger tantrums including phoning my husband and friends wailing to force me into talking to her, she has also called the police to check nothing has happened to me, that only worked twice = exhausting.

Went NC January also blocked siblings, I was exhausted, fed up and reached my limit. Now she tells family and her carers how vile I am, I wouldn't even give her [an old dying lady] a chance to explain! It would be funny but after a lifetime of her behavior, I don't give a shit.

Until I started reading 'stately homes' I knew her behavior was disgraceful and that of a toddler tantrum but now I also see all the other shit, the hoovering especially, as it had always worked she just kept ramping it up to demented levels, dispatching dad or her carers to beg on her behalf. I tried everything to not ostracize a 90 year old frail woman but it just isn't possible. It was rough for few months as also dealing with husband's cancer treatment, nothing will make me try and be kind to her ever again. The peace and calm I now have is priceless.

Long time lurker here.

My mum died earlier this year, she was always emotionally distant and negative, didn't want to do anything, we called her a dementor. My dad was her enabler. She was toxic in some ways, racist towards my husband and towards my gay nephew. Over the past few years I distanced myself, I was always polite, made small talk, but no real relationship with her.

Little sister was always the golden child, could get away with anything. I have two older sisters as well, both really close to me at the time.

Mum died, me & my dad were there, the others had the opportunity to stay overnight but chose not to. I had to comfort dad, make the calls to them to come over, it was early morning.

Little sister came in, pushed me away, shouted 'keep her the fuck away from me'. I broke down and left. I came back later that day, her and her husband were ignoring me, giving me dirty looks. I left it alone. She thought I'd stopped her staying over the night before, I genuinely hadn't and wished she would have stayed, I'd have enjoyed the company during the very long night.

The next day I went over first thing to help dad clear out some of the medical equipment. Little sister was there with her husband, I said morning, they glared at me and left the room. I broke down again. I couldn't handle being there with that behaviour towards me. No-one stood up for me.

I explained to my dad I couldn't be there if she was. He said that was ok. He said he didn't need to hear my side of the story as he'd heard from my sisters. He called me disgusting for the way I'd treated mum.

I spent the next 3 weeks alone. Big sister texted me, when I asked to meet up she always had an excuse. A few days before the funeral she turned up with a box of mum's clothes that she'd picked out for me, I was upset as there were no clothes I'd seen mum wear. I got upset and pointed out I'd been alone for 3 weeks, no-one had cared to spend time with me, they'd all been together. I wasn't nasty, I used 'I feel' type statements. She blocked me on everything.

I couldn't go to the funeral, with two sisters ignoring me.

Today, over 6 months later, I still haven't had an apology from little sister or big sister. Big sister has turned things around, saying I hate her, I never said that. I said I was hurt that she'd blocked me 3 days before mum's funeral.

Little sister said it was my fault, she didn't know how else to behave.

My family is broken, I'm just in contact with my eldest sister now. I can't help but think what on earth happened? We were so close caring for mum in the weeks before she died, taking shifts, caring for her personal needs.

Sorry for my essay, but I should add my dad and me now have a very limited relationship, he doesn't want to listen to what's happened, so I keep to small talk only. We've gone from seeing each other twice a week with lots of phone calls and text messages to seeing each other a couple of times a month. I've kept trying to tell him how I feel, he doesn't want to listen or to help fix things.

@CrazyCatLady13
'He said he didn't need to hear my side of the story as he'd heard from my sisters. He called me disgusting for the way I'd treated mum.'
Wow just wow!
Time to take a big step back, should he need care, wants company, a chat, shopping, housework etc let the sisters do it. It would seem that the siblings rode in on their white chargers. Your dad has picked a side, there was no need for that, its not difficult to visit on different days to the others.

Dont explain yourself to any of them, not even good sister.

My dad after being nasty, then called out on it would say 'no point going over stuff, rehashing it all' in other words end of conversation, no apology, lets just gloss over it, sweep it under the carpet.

Of course when I decided I no longer wished to talk to him and rehash anything he was furious, cried, carried on that he would make everything right.....no I am fine as is, too little too late. Some dishes are best served cold. I went NC gave myself permission to walk away from the exhausting toxicity, manipulation, narc games and the old who is in the will this week!

Give yourself some time to breathe it is a really uncomfortable place to be in, raging feelings, hurt, injustice but it will pass. Then you can think calmly where you go from there x