September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

@BluebellsForest yes you are right you have done your fair share of shit/caring I hadn't thought about that. I was just thinking short term accomodation and enough money for rental deposit. No offense intended but was insensitive of me xx

You were just being kind, but I've had this suggested so many times (not your fault!). It kind of feels like 'that's your role in life' although I know it's not meant that way.

To answer, @Tbry, earlier: I can't drive due to an eye problem that I've just found out is likely inoperable. I have (mild) CFS but I am on a new treatment plan that is genuinely helping (otherwise I wouldn't have been able to go away this weekend).

I want to stay local for the next six weeks to complete a course I'm on. I've booked the Airbnb for another night. Mum has texted me to suggest she moves out is the house so that I can live there with the cat. 🙄

@BluebellsForest 🤣🤣 would she be able to stay away and leave you alone! Or not change her mind 2 days later. It's so shit dealing with them, they are so crafty and manipulative, we can't really trust a word they say. For me total NC with my family was the only way xx

I do think she is genuine when she comes up with nonsense like that, @binkie163,
but she's like two people. Really lovely or (increasingly) full of hate. Mind you, I think I'm a bit similar.

I think I'm about ready to pull the plug on my mother - she has always been hysterical and abusive but I've finally had it

For those who are LC or NC with some family members but not others, how do you navigate the way you feel around family that you see?

I find it triggering to see any family, even the ones who are not problematic as it reminds me of my childhood etc. I find I am being unnecessarily defensive and my guard goes up - like a self protection thing. Is it ever possible to spend time with family who you get on with ok in a relaxed state having gone through all this? Are there any techniques that have worked for others?

I hope you’re ok

“In reality I didn’t have or don’t have a family, it was always a bunch of toxic relationships bound biologically. So what I was hanging on to were toxic relationships in the hope that one day they will magically become family.”

This is absolutely bang-on from @tonewbeginnings - as is the question about trying to navigate feelings around the people you continue to see.

In my case, I could see no option other than to completely detach from my entire family of origin (toxic sister, mother, 2 brothers - one disabled and the other an alcoholic).

The collateral damage was inevitable, and I had to learn to suck it up. A couple of the adult nieces and nephews got in touch with me and we remain close. I was a loving auntie and I hope good memories will remain with the younger ones I lost.

@PJHarvey – I have a highly toxic sister. I am certain that there is some kind of cluster B personality disorder going on, enabled by her dickhead DH who also thrives on drama. Toxic Sister is a carbon copy of our deeply damaged late mother.

@Sicario - my experience is similar. When your family is enmeshed and toxic you are often the target of conflict and it’s hard to see who the culprit is in the chaos.

I detached from my toxic siblings (parents dead) after a lifetime of sneering and sniping especially when this was unsurprisingly and increasingly directed at my teens (jealousy even tho we are modest people).

My withdrawal was fuel on the fire and the Narc rage was intense for years.

However I have recently found out that ‘they’ (it’s really only one key player) has come into conflict (targeted and attacked) another of the siblings who has since flounced....so when I went they had to find someone else to discharge their bile onto.

I expect this to happen again - their little toxic cabal is getting smaller.

The second sibling who flounced then tried to make contact with me - I didn’t respond - they had not contacted me for 4 years when I was out in the cold and so I saw this attempt as self serving.

I don’t give the key sibling too much headspace - I just visualise her as a hyena - that’s the extent of her biological range - she is not capable of understanding or changing - her instinct is to maul - so best to keep out of her way. I find it helpful to reduce her to this animalistic image in my mind as it stops be wondering why she is like this or how she could change.

I am also not here to comfort or console any of her subsequent victims - as seemingly they were happy to see me and my DC take a kicking without a word of acknowledgement.

That all sounds very familiar @Gloriously . The rage and hatred after I went NC six years ago really was something to behold and continues to this day apparently. Toxic Sister is an empty vessel / emotional vampire and is unable to regulate her behaviour for any length of time.

The whole family was a fuck-up and I don't know why I wasted so many years putting myself through the mincer trying to make things right and be all things to all people.

It takes years to recover and heal from toxic family dynamics and I have absolutely no regrets about going NC.

I didn't explain myself to anyone. Just decided one day I'd had enough (triggered by Toxic Sister slagging me off yet again). Walked out of my mother's house and never went back, never spoke to any of them ever again.

Toxic people never change, nor do they take responsibility for their behaviours or the effects of their actions on others.

I built my own little family unit and it's a whole different universe filled with love, kindness and respect.

@Sicario @Gloriously so much of what you’re saying resonates.

It’s a work in progress, as I have finally gone NC with 2 brothers and their flying monkey spouses + children. They were the worse of the narcs and had made me the target / scapegoat for years. I have a sister I see occasionally and mum I see a bit more. Both have also been part of the drama at times but less so. My sister is much older than me, both her and my mum have been bystanders in some awful situations when I was a kid. I now realise this and have reduced contact.

It’s a long slow process of realising, grief, ongoing healing and NC. Like you said I have also built a loving little family unit and my kids have no contact with my biological family as I know they would be easy targets for narc behaviour.

I wonder if this is familiar to anyone at all? this has been bothering me for a long time though I’ve never been able to articulate it. Growing up I was never allowed to talk about how I felt or what was upsetting me. I was often upset (mainly as my FOO are mental!) but was told to stop crying or asked “what are you crying about now?” Rhetorical of course!

I grew up keeping my feelings to myself and became a chronic people pleaser as people only seemed to be nice to me if I made them happy and did what they wanted.

I remember being in my teens and a girl from school finding out inadvertently about something I had been dealing with in my family which was fairly major. She was really lovely and said she couldn’t believe I had been dealing with this particular thing and she admired me for dealing with it so well. It was the last thing I expected after the panic of realising she had found out about this matter.

Before this, no one was ever interested in anything I had to say, ever. It made me feel good, she had given me a lovely response and was supportive which I hadn’t experienced before.

Ever since I feel like I’ve been sharing things I shouldn’t… I hear myself telling people things and inside I’m thinking “shut up!! They don’t care” yet I carry on. It’s like I’m trying to look for that connection I got those years ago but of course that’s ludicrous… I actually really wish I could go back to keeping everything to myself as I now feel like I can share too much. And I almost always regret it, it leaves me feeling exposed.

It’s like I’ve got an addiction and trying to reach that feeling again. And also part rebellion after being made to shut up for years. I’ve recently had a horrible experience with someone who has treated me really poorly, it’s come out of nowhere and been really upsetting. I know the right thing to do is not to discuss this, rise above it and don’t talk about it to others who are in the same circle but I find if someone asks me (someone in the group noticed something was off) I find it impossible to lie and say I’m fine when I’m not after years of doing just that.

My emotional responses aren’t exactly the same, but I can understand where you’re coming from. I went for a sleepover at age 15 and cried in my friend’s arms for several hours just because feeling safe and understood was so foreign to me. Today I will share with others to get a feeling that I’m in touch with reality/normality. Wanting to share with those close or even acquaintances is normal and healthy.

I would go further and say it’s not the right thing to withhold from those around you. They may be able to help you and get a huge amount out of doing so and they probably don’t want to feel that they can’t help out a friend because she’s not giving them all the information. I get told every time I go to hospital that I should use my support network, it’s a natural human thing and you can return the favour in future if they need it.

Best wishes to you.

And it’s not an addiction, it’s you reacting to feelings of safety and kindness which you haven’t had enough of recently.

Find something you will enjoy. You will have somewhere to live usually with food (especially in a farm situation) and to help with any anxieties you will get in a routine, especially if there are animals or crops to tend too.

The other thing I thought of later on is is there anything you would like to study? Not probably possible until next year but that would also mean your loan would cover your accommodation at uni, bills and food and once again and environment and routines. I know in the past that mature students at unis also had possibilities of earning potentials looking after the young ones etc.

Really hope things turn out well for you 💐

Thank you @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau for responding and your words!!

I find it can be hard to differentiate between those who are supportive and those who want information.

I have 2 friends I trust totally though they have their own problems… I worry about burdening them so I tend not to share as much with them, for fear of adding to their stress. But I know they would want the truth as you state above.

I know I would want to hear this from my friend and support them. My worry, which I probably didn’t explain very well is that I share these things with people who end up letting me down. On face value they seem kind and caring but I am occasionally wrong about this and it feels like I have very bad judgment.

I have dealt with some horrific family members but rather than being distrusting of others i often see that I view my FOO as narc/manipulative/twisted and assume the rest of the planet isn’t like that, rather than protecting myself from
this potential which I think would make more sense.

I am also certain that your support network would, especially when it is discovered you have been admitted to hospital! Wish that you would speak with them and share your concerns. I sympathise with your fear not to burden… and if I were your friend I would want you to share your worries with me and talk things through. I think I sometimes try TOO hard to treat people how I would want to be treated but sometimes I miss that others aren’t the same as I am.

Much love!!

That was meant to read - sending much love, not sure what happened there ❤

@Getolderbutneverwiser Yes! What you said really resonated with me. We weren't allowed to have feelings, and any of our worries were dismissed with how it had been worse for her in some way. It has taken a long time to be able to talk to people about how I'm feeling, even to the point of picking up the phone to talk about a bad day (real progress for me!) I haven't always got it right, as not everyone understands what a big deal it is for me to share.

A healthy FOO and main caregiver is there to soothe us as children - to listen and prioritise, to help us understand our big feelings which are emotionally overwhelming so that we become able to recognise and tolerate them and become emotionally resilient and regulated as adults. So that we can cope and ultimately be calm when life throws us a curved ball. So that we learn to respond proportionately, not react disproportionately - the latter of which is harmful to ourselves and our relationships.

By our FOO and caregivers not doing this basic part of parenting - guiding us through learning about our feelings it is negligent at best and abusive at worst - we don’t have those inner resources as we have not emotionally developed them yet or appropriately.

The Crappy Childhood Fairy (YouTube) describes this as leaving us ‘emotionally leaky’ and this backfires in many ways - it can be overwhelming and unattractive to others so we are rejected or it can be seen as a vulnerability and exploited by others who target us. Or we attract controlling co-dep types who see is as a project to ‘fix’ or histrionic types who want to join in the drama / misery.

Also the either withholding / saying nothing or the complete unleashing (with the shame afterwards) are both often unproductive for friendships.

The aim is to be able to calmly share / talk to others if/when appropriate about our experiences and how we are processing them

So the way through is to work on healing / processing your own hurts either one to one with a professional or using expert online resources for addressing unresolved trauma. That way we are not easily triggered or withholding but can be contained and resilience enough to have peaceful, productive, mutually reciprocal relationships. Our friends are not skilled professionals who can rectify the deep and complex issues, hurts and scars from our FOO.

Fucking hell, my sister. Having always been super reluctant to do anything for our parents (even phone calls were too much to ask) she has gone into full-on, in-charge mode with mum, but of course it's deeply performative. Her new pompous officiousness finishes me. She is so absolutely vile to me that it distracts me from the fact that it is mum being vile to me that has led to this situation. Unless it's me that's vile? I guess we're all pretty awful.

I reluctantly came home last night so that I could go to my weekly course, and no affordable local Airbnbs. While I was away my mum's cold turned into a ?chest infection, but my sister only made an appointment for her today. Sister doesn't believe in Covid so she will take mum off to doctors without a mask. She acts like she's the first person to make their parent a doctor's appointment when actually it's just the first time she's done it. She was dressing my mum was if she was a child. I have always tried so hard to maintain the dignity of whoever I've been caring for. I can't bear it. It's this that somehow has me in tears again.

My sister's response last week when I attempted to warn mum not to minimise her health issues with social services ("are you threatening her? I'm recording you...") led to mum's attendance allowance being cancelled. She told them she was "fit and well". She's not, but tends to massively minimise to anyone 'official'.

My sister has rewritten history and tells me that I have hated her her whole life. I actually adored her until relatively recently, and tried to protect her from the family shit show. It's like she has finally got the opportunity to cast me as the family villain and she is loving it.

It's all about getting mum to sell the family home and benefit from that herself as much a possible. It's win--win for her as mum had already paid for half of sister's house, so anything else is icing on the cake. Whereas I have nowhere else to live.
.
Sorry, I'm just putting all this here in a stream as I have no idea what else to do with it.

I will go back and read others' posts.

Oh goodness @BluebellsForest. I have so much empathy for you but I haven’t worked out how to deal with that sort of thing so I can’t advise. It’s a very classic narcissistic family structure, though - probably your mother will be praising your sister to the skies for having lifted a finger whereas you’ve been doing donkey work for years. Loads of sympathy and it’s good you’ve found somewhere to offload. Narcissistic parents are really good at creating rifts between their children :(

Thank you so much @Frontroomroomjungle and @Gloriously for your words!!!

Thank you also for the introduction to The Crappy Childhood Fairy, I have watched the first video and will definitely delve in further as I certainly need to address the area, really appreciate your understanding and insight.

@BluebellsForest I am so sorry to read this and can feel the frustration at the injustice… of course your sister is sweeping in now as there are benefits up for grabs… taking over and speaking down to you as though she is the hero is part of the “show”. I expect she’ll be telling anyone who will listen how much she is doing for your mum, it’s all creating an image she wants to curate, as you say entirely performative and minimising to what you have had to deal with.

Yes I can relate to that somewhat. I don’t ever remember a time when I felt I could tell about my feelings. I can’t put my finger on it but it’s almost like my feelings were wrong or I’d be made to feel silly about them. I was also upset and cried a lot but my mothers response to that was like it was just more hassle for her to deal with, I don’t think there was ever much concern as to what was upsetting me. I do still struggle voicing my feelings now.

I’ve spent the last couple of days reading through the recommended websites. I found the daughters of narcissistic mothers really helpful and recognised a lot of the described behaviour, it’s helped me understand what’s been going on.

Another thing I see mentioned here is playing siblings against each other. I can’t say that’s something she does, however she does treat my dad like a scapegoat. He is blamed for everything, is always being put down and she takes the Mickey out of him which she has always encouraged us to do too. It was like us three against him. I suppose it’s a similar thing just her way of doing it.

My dad and I are very similar which she doesn’t like but also put downs of him can also apply to me which I’m sure she’s well aware of. Although according to her it’s her I take after.

No real reason for this post, just getting things off my chest and making sense of things.