September 2023 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support

Great post that really resonates with me. I too wish I'd left it all behind 40 years ago. My life would have been much better

Well done. Whether you go ahead with it or not you absolutely did the right thing. Xxx

@Jumperhermit ’hurt people, hurt people’ - and our own reactive abuse is the result of our own poor emotional regulation due to emotional deficiencies and poor resilience due to emotional neglect and abuse in childhood. It’s not unexpected that sometimes we would behave badly under duress ...... that’s why we need to take ourselves out of toxic environments and ‘out of punching distance’ so we don’t get provoked into behaviours that we don’t want to have.

We need to look at the rest of our interactions with other people outside of our FOO to see that we don’t behave like this then.

My regret is that I didn’t untangle myself from the toxic enmeshed system sooner - as the constant stress made me a person I didn’t want to become.

Detachment emotionally and physically creates space and distance from the constant preoccupation and chaos - and once that rope is dropped and you catch your breath you can use this time and space work on tending to these emotional hurts and deficits once and for all - and give your time to the good people in the world.

I'm so sorry for what you have endured, @thatllbethebees. I'm thinking of you and hope you're finding a way through the maelstrom.

Those are both such helpful posts,@binkie163 and @Gloriously. Thank you.

I've been advised before on here to just leave, and after an awful situation last Friday, I possibly have. Well r has to be definite, I just don't know where to go. It was perhaps reactive abuse on my behalf (I threw something, not at a person.) But it could also be just abuse by me. I was devastated afterwards but we all know that means nothing.

Coincidentally I had booked to go away this weekend for my birthday, as it has been all but ignored in recent years by my mum (who I was living with)in a really marked way. So I followed the standard MN advice and booked to go away alone. This meant I could leave almost immediately.

I had already called social services to say I didn't think the situation was safe for my mum. They assessed her last week as having no care needs and told me I could just leave. Somehow coming from them it hit home for me.

I now don't know where to go when this airb&b booking is finished.

(I'm sorry, my situation sounds trivial compared to what some others are going through.)

@BluebellsForest your situation doesn't sound at all trivial, it sounds unhappy, unhealthy and stressful. Reach out to everyone to sofa surf or for a room to rent for the short term, you need space to think clearly and make a plan. It is a massive leap of faith, change is difficult but the alternative is a life of misery ❤️

I have gone quite a long time without speaking to DM. I ended up not telling her about the counselling or try to work things out. I did try to phone her but she was out, although tried phoning me back the next day but I was on a day trip and didn't pick up.

A big part of it is that my DS has cancer. DM has always been awful about other people being sick and right now I'd rather focus on DS than deal with DM trying to manufacture a drama (which she is doing, unfortunately).

DM sent me a parcel with some food. I know this sounds kind but I think she's done this hoping it will generate a response. She expects multiple expressions of gratitude for getting birthday presents for the kids and that sort of thing.

I don't really know where to go from here. I will need to speak to her at some point, I think, but I've been very badly burned being her emotional support monkey before and I just don't have it in me to go through it again. She doesn't really seem to see me as a person who has also been affected by family bereavements and illnesses in my own right, just someone there to help her.

Thanks. I have literally no none to reach out to, no friends or family who I could ask. I am looking at YMCA etc but more expensive than I remembered.

It may be worth your while contacting Shelter re possible options.

I'm so sorry about your DS's health, @HoraceGoesBonkers. And that your mother is only causing more stress.

There are so many patterns on here.
My mum also does not 'do' illness. Behaves very weirdly. It's exhausting.

There is a massive housing crisis. I am not going to expect anything from Shelter while I can fund temporary accommodation. Which is lucky as I'd be amazed if they can help me in any way. I find this comment very like all of the "Call your GP" "Ring Samaritans, OP" posts, and honestly more dismissive than helpful.

@BluebellsForest It's very weird! It's almost like she puts herself in a competition for attention with the person who is actually ill.

It's a sibling rather than a son (sorry, should have been clearer). Initially she was really dismissive as my sister was "only" in for day surgery, then it turned out to be cancer so DM has been phoning cancer support lines, telling all our relatives without asking DS if she wanted people to know, and also told my Dad (Dad is terminally ill and at the stage where he doesn't really know what's going on and can't speak, move, feed himself and there was absolutely no point in upsetting him at all) then relaying back to my sibling that she'd told DF and they'd "wept together" so had presumably had a scene in the nursing home.

She was then back to telling DS that it was "minor surgery".

It's maybe a bit hard but I really don't want to speak to her when she's behaving like this. We've unfortunately been through quite a few episodes of her being weird about people being sick or bereaved. She won't actually help the people who need it but does stuff aimed at garnering attention and sympathy for herself and I'm so done with her trying to be the main character in everything.

They can talk through your options, do not dismiss what Shelter could possibly do here out of hanc. I do understand that you’re both angry and stressed out - but you’re having a pop at the wrong person here. The link below details what they do

https://england.shelter.org.uk/what_we_do?reserved_appeal_code=20220401-IG-30&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp66k1q2bggMVxPrtCh1O3wU8EAAYASABEgLBnvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&_its=JTdCJTIydmlkJTIyJTNBJTIyMDJhZWUxYTctMmUyZC00ZDU2LWFkNzctM2FiMmY5MTFhNTQ4JTIyJTJDJTIyc3RhdGUlMjIlM0ElMjJybHR%2BMTY5ODU4NTkzMn5sYW5kfjJfODUxNjBfcHBjYXV0b19kYWMxMGUzN2Q5NjNlYTQ5MjkxZmY4YmZiMjM1Mzg4NSUyMiUyQyUyMnNpdGVJZCUyMiUzQTExOTc4JTdE

@BluebellsForest YWCA that brings back memories. I stayed at ywca in Bristol for 5 months, not sure if the same but it was half the price to share a room than a single one and I was glad of the company. The 2 girls I shared with we got a house together to rent and a year later I got my first mortgage. It was 2 hours away from my parents. I was really young and the support I got there was amazing. I honestly wish that had been the last time I ever saw my parents but they tracked me down, I lost a really good job because my mother would phone 10 times a day drunk and abusive swearing at the receptionist, it was so humiliating.
Stay strong and keep hope, better times are coming xx

I'm not "having a pop", I'm responding to your post.

I can see you put a lot of time and effort into this page, and I am grateful. But your very black and white approach has tbh put me off joining in many times. People on here are generally feeling pretty fragile. Yes, a reality check is often beneficial, but too much bluntness can be alienating.

That's an amazing outcome, @binkie163. Jesus, these mothers!

I'm 52 (today!) and it's just so different when you're older.

My dad died a few days after my birthday, three years ago. He was an alcoholic and very difficult, but at least he didn't hate me. And he was kind. I miss him. I keep bursting into tears in the street thinking of him. No one else ever mentions him.

I can see now what my mum put him through. It seems so sad, even though his behaviour was appalling.

@BluebellsForest Happy birthday ❤️ my wish for you is that next spring you will walk through a carpet of bluebells in a woodland, in a much happier, healthy place xx
I have been afraid of being homeless all my life, it was my mother's favorite threat/punishment and I was often locked out the house from the age of 8 to sleep outside in all weather. Children had no protection in the 1960-70's. For years I never had more possessions than would fit in my car, just in case. I have twice been caught in negative equity in the house market and had to start again. I feel like I have been fighting all my life. I have been settled with my husband 27 years, I still have times of extreme anxiety fearing we could lose everything, COVID lockdowns nearly bankrupted our company, my husband then got cancer and we are still standing.
Everything I have ever done was from fear never courage, I am 62 and all I want from life now is the peace, love and happiness I always deserved.

Sorry, I missed your post, @HoraceGoesBonkers. I do remember your situation now. (I'm on my phone so I can't refer back to posts easily.) I’m sorry that your mother’s behaviour is so awful while you are already dealing with so much.

The illness thing is a real tell, I think. When we went to care for my aunt who had terminal cancer, my mum fussed endlessly about a minor flare up of her rosacea in the hotter weather. I remember thinking, she can't really be seriously doing this? Then when I was caring for my dad (also terminal cancer) and was helping him across a room (before we had OT aids in place) she deliberately got in the way and seriously risked causing him to fall. It’s so batshit that I always have this doubt that it’s actually intentional and really happening.
But those two occasions stuck in my head.

I don’t think you’re being too “hard” at all in not speaking to your mother. Her whole approach to your family’s ill health sounds totally head-scrambling.

Horace

Your mother’s behaviour is typical of how a narcissistic person would behave in such circumstances. She just wants to make it all about her and when attention is not fully on her she will make it so that it is.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I know. :( I've thought this for a while but it's really been the last round of bad family shit that's made me face up to it. That and realising I couldn't trust her to let her know my son has autism because I couldn't face her making that all about herself too.

When she was told my nephew had bipolar she said that the nephew should come and visit her and that would help so I suspect visiting her may also be a miracle cure for autism. 🙄

My late sister used to go on about how much she hated DM but I found it awful and thought my sister was trying to pin my her alcoholism on my mum. I wish I could talk it through with her properly now.

I'm finding this thread very helpful. Stuff still goes round and round in my head a bit but not as badly as it was before I started posting. I want to check out some of the podcasts upthread too.

@BluebellsForest get looking for a room or small flat, depending on what you can afford, for a short lease. Either that or ask any friend with spare rooms if you can stay for a little while? I’ve been in the same situation multiple times and managed to get a room/bedsit within a week.

Bless you, @binkie163, thank you.

Goodness, you have been through so much. I know the word resilience is often used in an unhelpful way, but you sound genuinely resilient. I hope you are able to step back and truly get some peace now.

A big issue for me is that when I am away from my mother, I don't feel peace, I just turn in against myself and often feel terribly alone.

Thanks, but I've been through all of this. My only hope is a room in a shared house. I can't do that again.

@BluebellsForest sorry, I hadn’t read to the end of the thread, sorry :( I know how frustrating it is when people suggest things that are impossible or unlikely to help, or that you’ve tried before, so I apologise. The only thing I can think of is that even people who don’t know you well can be extremely kind, so if you have acquaintances you might be able to ask them for a favour, even if it’s just sleeping on a sofa for a week. Best of luck and loads of sympathy to you.

@BluebellsForest It's really hard to deal with, isn't it?

I think I mentioned the ramp - back when DF was a bit more mobile they could have had a free ramp installed in their house but she turned it into a massive deal and had a big drama about not wanting to lose space in the garden; she didn't want the council's design, my husband did another one for her that met building standards and took up less space but she didn't like that either. Meanwhile my Dad was struggling getting in and out the house. Then DF had a really bad fall on the same steps she was prevaricating about.

DF's fall set off a really terrible chain of events where he got covid in hospital and nearly died, so didn't get proper physio after the fall, then was in hospital for months and became immobile after all that.

The only motivation for her not doing anything about it seemed to be that she liked people trying to talk her into installing a ramp. It was incredibly frustrating.

After DF's fall she paid for a ramp herself that cost a fortune and doesn't comply with building standards as it's too steep. I guess it all makes sense in her head, somehow.