Husband’s violent outburst - is it over?

[Dreamingofthathouse]

We’ve been married many years, until recently a fairly happy marriage though with time we have encountered many of the usual life challenges (two full time jobs with small children, including one with challenging behaviour, aging parents with health issues, some of our own health issues and of course the current economic situation). These have started to wear us down and we have very little time to properly address issues.

As a result tensions have mounted, and I should preface this by saying I am that annoying partner who always brings up issues and wants to discuss how to solve them, even on a Sunday evening when my husband would rather relax (and has made this very clear).

In truth I really pushed all his buttons tonight including saying several insulting things. I’m not proud of it and in retrospect I was selfish to not just let him relax ahead of a long and stressful week. But I know my behaviour also stems from not feeling heard. At any rate, he then (for the first time) had a big violent fit, threw some of my things out the window, slammed doors, broke a bunch of plates and punched me in the arm when I tried to stop him. I am sleeping in the living room tonight. I told him not to come close to me and he told me that I am a bully and have been so unpleasant I drove him out of his mind.

I’m really sad, I’m not proud of my behaviour, I’m a little shocked (but somehow not that shocked, oddly) but I’m also not seeing a way around what he has done and I’m not sure what to do with our small children who are in the mix.

IANBU: I can work on my behaviour and as this was a complete one off triggered by me we can reset and he won’t turn violent again

IABU: this is a new side to my husband I have discovered and after this there is no way back. Anyway if I’ve driven an otherwise peaceful man to madness there is no going back from here

I agree.

Taking what you said on face value about it being so out of character after such a long time together, I don’t think it matters who was most in the wrong. The relationship has become a toxic mess and both of you have been abusive to the other. You need to separate, even if only temporarily and decide how to move forwards.

This is not the environment for your kids to grow up in.

I think it really does matter what you said to him.

Your behaviour was clearly highly provocative and abusive. And repeated vs his one off loss of control

Fwiw I've been through courts with an abusive man and I don't suffer fools in this respect at all anymore. I think this sounds different. See how he is this morning.

What He did is wrong, and destructive to any relationship.

what you are doing is also wrong, and grinds away at a relationship and someone’s self worth. I know that because I lived with someone who also used their family as a verbal punchbag, and the relief that I no longer do is enormous. It does drive you mad, as we both know- it’s meant to. Do you want him, and your children to feel worthless, or is it that you want them to join you in the gutter.

The fact you know you’re a foul mouthed and nasty- and see no reason to change that is something else. Would you be mortified if he told people how you actually behave at home, which is a good way of judging whether something is acceptable?

yes, you should probably split up, if he was my brother I would want him to have nothing to do with you. Whatever your feelings, you can’t demonstrate any respect for him, and it is a disgusting example to set your children.

Me and an ex used to say horrible things. We also managed to never throw things or become violent as we are reasonable adults who can walk away. It would never occur to me that throwing things and violence is an action that’s acceptable.

the fact that he’s continually unwilling to have open conversation at any time other than when he deems it acceptable is another red flag.

therapy. Definitely for you to work on your esteem issues where you think you are the cause and accepting g any blame for his behaviour.

You were verbally abusive and aggressive which is not okay. He was physically abusive and aggressive which is not okay. It doesn’t really matter which is worse, it’s happened, it will happen again and next time it will escalate. The difference between physical and verbal aggression/ abuse is even when your verbally abusive behaviour escalates it’s not going to potentially kill or injure anyone, when your husbands physical aggression/ abuse escalates it could.

Neither of you have acted okay, neither of you have acted in a forgivable manner. This is not a positive environment for your children. You both need to work on finding ways to communicate and be heard and you will only be able to do that with professional help (eg: marriage counsellor). If you can’t work on that together and with a professional then you need to end the relationship as things won’t change and will escalate.

He had a violent fit and punched you and you’re asking if this is ok?

Bloody hell…

1. Violence is never acceptable
2. neither is pushing people to the limits of their endurance and making them snap.

Your relationship us in crisis. Can you take a breather and get some mediation?

You didn't make him angry, he made himself angry.

He then victim blamed. 'You made me do this'.

There's no excuse.

Why are you assuming responsibility?

If you feel the relationship is dying whether this had happened or not then I think it's a death knell unfortunately. And stick to it.

If it's totally out of the blue, it still needs to be seen as something very serious and important.

The risk is that you simply carry on with normal life, and this becomes normal. It's extremely easy to do this because our brains aren't really wired to "see" threat in this way. Although it sounds simple to stand from the outside and say "if he ever hit me I'd leave" the reality is that one incident tends not to alter a long term perspective of somebody, and the longer you ignore it or dither, the more your brain tries to make sense of this by making excuses (ah it didn't really count because I made him do that/he's grieving/he was drunk etc) or convincing you that it didn't happen or was less serious than you remember.

So you need to make it serious by acting ASAP. The longer you wait the harder it is to do anything. Tell people. People who know him IRL. Ask him to leave temporarily to give you space. Ask him to go to his GP to get help. All concrete things which are much harder to ignore.

100% this.

So funny how majority of posts are solely focusing on what the man did wrong (and I'm not denying that what be did was very wrong).

But OP was clearly also in the wrong. She has admitted to verbally abusing him and not "letting him be". That's not OK.

Her husband is a human being, he has feelings and emotions too. If he has zero previous history of violence then bleating LTB is an outrageous overreaction. It sounds like OP was being deliberately antagonist and he snapped. Unfortunately when men snap physical outbursts are sometimes the result. Sometimes because men are actually just violent pieces of shit, but also sometimes because they have just been pushed too far. It's never OK but often a sign that actually, they need help, more than anything.

Men are not always the violent villains in every situation, life is not always that black and white.

But yeah OP - your marriage sounds like it needs some SERIOUS intervention ASAP. I hope your arm is OK and that you can decide how you want to move forwards. Would you both be open to marriage counselling? For the sake of your small children, if nothing else?

The first time it happened to me my husband did exactly what yours did but didn’t touch me. It was nonetheless terrifying as he threatened me. Like you I thought it was my fault so I changed my behaviour so as not to arouse his anger ever again. It didn’t work. There was nothing I could do to stop his violence escalating. I was lucky to get out before he killed me.

What you describe is so serious. The fact that he didn’t take responsibility for his behaviour and blamed you is very worrying and does not bode well. I am afraid that he crossed a line and there is no going back. Your marriage is over.

It is virtually impossible to push someone to violence. Many people would walk away from you. Lock themselves in the loo or something if you were being that abusive but they would not lash out. I think you are making excuses.

Can you say a little about what your argument was about?

I agree. Verbal abuse can be just as damaging as physical abuse. In a different way, of course.

I would suggest that you both get help with how you deal with stress, if you wish to stay together.

Actually, many, many people will be pushed to violence by abuse. I was - I ended up hitting the abuser with a shoe, over and over again. I'd just had enough.

There's even a term for it - 'reactive abuse'.

And a storyline in the The Archers showed how Helen was pushed to stabbing her husband, Rob, by his coercive control and abuse. This stortline was extensively researched with the assistance of domestic violence organisations.

Whichever way it is, this is an abusive relationship and divorce would be the best thing for all concerned.

Good morning and thank you for all the responses - lots of food for thought. I’ll have a go at answering some of the questions that came up and sharing how I’m feeling about things today.

I think those who have highlighted how this is a nuanced situation where both partners are in the wrong are right. I agree emotional abuse is a thing and I also agree I need help to control the things I say or at least how and when I say them.

For those of you asking what we are discussing it was an issue at school with one of our children. I strongly believe we need to move the child to a new school asap but my husband would prefer the problem to go away and thinks I’m exaggerating it, etc. This drives me up the wall and I said many nasty things, many of them untrue (like calling him selfish, unwilling to engage, lazy, saying I can’t respect or live with a partner who always gets in the way of solutions, etc). It was vile, and I know I need to change and stop doing this.

He did actually punch my arm - not just accidentally get me because I was in the way.

He later told me that his behaviour was not acceptable. I told him I agreed but recognise I behaved badly too. We left it at that at around 2am, slept in separate rooms, and avoided each other this morning before leaving the house.

We both love our children so much, they are our world and we put them before everything. It feels that is the one thing we currently share.
I would like to take the steps needed to make our relationship work but I am a little uneasy thinking perhaps some things are now broken that can’t be fixed (not looking now to see who is to blame, I think it’s both of us).

Anyone been through this before? Can therapy and good will fix things?

I’m not sure where his head is at and maybe he’s also thinking of leaving, which I would understand. He has said in the past that if this happened he’d fight tooth and nail to get custody of the children, and would stop at nothing.

Op, i would urge you to consider that perhaps this statement presents a false view of your husband: my husband, who is normally a considerate and very even keeled person (don’t think I’ve heard him raise his voice more than a couple of times in our 10+ years of marriage) finally snapped.
that does not at all describe a man who has said he would fight tooth and nail for custody of his children over you in the past. I raise my voice, we’ve had some heated arguments. My husband is generally more conflict avoidant. We have very occasionally had discussions about whether our marriage can survive the current issue. Neither of us would EVER threaten to take the children away from the other.

And one last thing - I also followed Helen’s storyline in the archers.

I have been verbally abusive but NOTHING like that.
It’s more outbursts of occasional verbal violence in response to really heated arguments where I lose my temper and don’t manage to walk away.

I have enough self control to never do it in front of the children.
I typically know I’ve messed up minutes afterwards.

There are no coercive control issues in the family, just bad tempers and not enough self control to keep things civil when arguments get really heated.

again I’m not proud of it but outside of these instances I’d say we are both supportive, independent and considerate of each other

@Codlingmoths I hear you, it’s a nasty thing to say. I probably made the same threat, in the same argument.
We come from different regions and we were discussing what would happen if we split up and I probably said I’d try to move home because of the cost of housing in London.
So yes, a nasty thing to say but in the context if both adults discussing a split and the practicalities. I just assumed children would come with me because I’m the mother but he made it clear he doesn’t see it that way.

"it was an issue at school with one of our children. I strongly believe we need to move the child to a new school asap but my husband would prefer the problem to go away and thinks I’m exaggerating it, etc. This drives me up the wall and I said many nasty things, many of them untrue (like calling him selfish, unwilling to engage, lazy, saying I can’t respect or live with a partner who always gets in the way of solutions, etc)"

I dont think thats verbally abusive...given that it appears he likes to bury his head in the sand. He is accusing you of exaggerating an issue and his solution is he 'hopes it will go away'...that is someone being unwilling to engage and getting in the way of solutions. It sounds like his lack of engagement led to you saying these things. I don't think that is verbal abuse and I don't think its nasty enough to drive someone to punch you. I think you are overplaying your part in this and downplaying his

Hey OP, I could have written this 10 years ago. Mumsnet can't help you. Your husband could be a man who is going to escalate his violence or it could be a one off. It was a one off for us BUT it's a huge red line and we did18 solid months of couples counselling to get there. Threatening to take someone children away from them is fairly nasty thing to do but violence is never ok. He needs to learn to walk away and so do you.

What this can't become is an implicit threat that its ever acceptable for this to happen again no matter what you say. The "she deserved it" trope is so dangerous.

On a practical note he very much could get a prohibitive steps order to stop you moving away with them. Don't weaponise your kids, OP.

Hmmm. I too used to be verbally abusive to my DP. I had years of counselling but little changed. Then I did an anger management course (residential, 3 days). And realised my anger came not only because my needs were not being met by my DP (to be heard, loved etc) but also because I didn't value, own, respect, my own needs.

You say you can't live with someone who won't do x, or who behaves in y manner. Yet you do. So you're also angry at him for pushing you into betraying your own needs. Your anger is maybe also about your own lack of respect, love, valuing, of yourself.

OP - it is obviously very difficult for any of us to know the ins and outs here but this paragraph is literally every red flag for a problematic situation, partly because it seems that you are unwilling/unable to consider the fact that there is a problem.

“For those of you asking what we are discussing it was an issue at school with one of our children. I strongly believe we need to move the child to a new school asap but my husband would prefer the problem to go away and thinks I’m exaggerating it, etc. This drives me up the wall and I said many nasty things, many of them untrue (like calling him selfish, unwilling to engage, lazy, saying I can’t respect or live with a partner who always gets in the way of solutions, etc). It was vile, and I know I need to change and stop doing this.”

I don’t know what the issue is with your child’s school, but trusting my general experience which is that parents don’t wish to move schools unless there’s a significant reason, it is highly likely that YOU love your children more than anything and want to do right by them, and that HE is pretty selfish and lacking in empathy for your children’s well being (especially emotional well being). Lack of empathy is a massive red flag.

managing to convince you, over the course of many years, that you are the problem and that his behaviour is a response to yours rather than the other way round - also a red flag.

his comment about custody - absolutely a red flag.

your willingness to self criticize… For instance: saying someone has a selfish attitude and isn’t engaging with an issue when they are, in fact, being selfish and not engaging with an issue - is that verbal abuse?
Is verbal abuse anytime we call out a fault or someone’s poor behaviour?
Is the only way not to be abusive to NEVER disagree with or criticize someone else?
hmmmmm…. That can’t be the case can it?!

OP I’m so sorry, and I wish very much that one of us could reach out and help you see something that you’re currently not able to acknowledge, which is that there does appear to be an issue here - and it is very possibly not at ALL of your making.

I hope deeply that you read the book I suggested. I spent a long time in a relationship in which I felt I was losing my mind, and I couldn’t understand why disagreements were never resolved, nothing seemed to clear the air, however hard I tried to communicate and consider my part in the dynamic nothing ever changed. That book did more to improve my life and save my sanity than any amount of therapy or counseling.

STOP beating yourself up, focus on the children and keeping things on an even keel for now, take a bit of time to think - and read that book.

💐💐

Argh! I hate it when the story gets changed half way through!

So basically you were verbally abusive and vile to him, so he unsurprisingly coulsnt keep his cool any more and he therefore smashed some stuff. Then when he went to throw something of yours you tried to stop him and by putting your arm in the way you got hit.

He didn't actually intentionally hit you as your original post said. VERY misleading. BIG difference.

It sounds to me like your husband is owed a huge apology and you need to sort your behaviour out as it is bordering on narcissistic.

It’s interesting that not too long ago, people believed that ‘domestic violence’ only happened if actual physical violence was involved. Fortunately, we have now come to realise that VAWG is much more nuanced - it includes coercive and controlling behaviour. My ex never raised a finger to me as he claimed to hate any man who used physical violence against women. But oh boy - the mental torture he used to put me through by his words was beyond belief. I never responded with physical violence against him because I was scared of him and he was far far stronger than me.
There have been instances where women have killed their abusive partner despite their partner never actually physically hurting them. We have successfully campaigned for those women to receive non custodial sentences or even to have a guilty verdict overturned.
My point is that there is more than one sort of violence. Mental violence can, and does, drive people to do things beyond their usual behaviour. OP, only you know what actually happened and whether this is a man who has ‘hidden’ a violent side for years, or is a man who was completely at the limit of control.