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Original poster

Would you get back in touch in this situation ? (friend cut me off)

175 replies

BluebellBlueballs · 29/06/2023 09:32

Long story short - close friend of 25 years, or so I thought, knows i am in to feminism (gender critical) although I have never tried to push any of my beliefs down this throat or be derogatory to trans people, I just don't think you can change sex etc.

Not really interested in people's view on pro trans/ pro GC so let's keep it away from the politics, but friend found out I'd gone to a gender critial womens' event in London (let women speak, organised by Kellie Jay Keen if people are aware of her). All I did was post on facebook that i'd been to the event and had a good time and met Kellie in the pub afterwards. Didn't say anything political, no statements about feminisim/ transgender, nothing at all about the issues. Just that I'd had a lovely day out at this event.

I feel very naive now as the next thing, he sent me a text saying he could no longer be friends with me as Kellie Jay Keen is a hater, and cut me off. I replied to explain that I'm not transphobic, i just believe in women's sex based rights and could we talk . Eventually after blocking me for 24 hours he replied saying he 'wasn't comfortable with the company I keep' and let's leave things as he feels very strongly about this issue and doesn't want a conversation about it. (he never has shown this before, we've discussed transgender issues in the past amicably/peacefully and he never showed disapproval of my view that woman = xx chromosomes etc) .

Anyway he's cut me off without a second glance and it hurts like hell. I'm really shocked that he would end a friendship of 25 years purely on the basis that I attended a women's event and met the organiser. He is acting as though I've joined the hitler youth or something.

Is there any point trying to resurrect this friendship either now or in the future. I feel like if he's not going to accept that I have my views and if he acts like there is something very wrong with me for being involved in gender critical feminism, without even the chance to have a conversation, then the friendship is in a bad place and I don't know how it could recover.

It's also crossed my mind that he was just not bothered about the friendship and was using this as a bit of an excuse to move on, but that doesn't feel like it's the case, the friendship felt solid before this. We have watched each others children grow up, knew each others parents etc. Met at uni at age 20 and been friends for 25 years and now he cuts me off without a backwards glance for one facebook post.

Gutted isn't the word, but do I just cut my losses? What would you do?

OP posts:
Clymene · 30/06/2023 15:12

Can you show us examples of her Islamophobictweets @TedMullins?

saraclara · 30/06/2023 15:23

I'm not sure why this friend is being denounced as misogynistic. Presumably its just the subject matter that results in that accusation?

I'm close to his position. My oldest friends have taken a right wing stance on a subject very important to me. And I'm now questioning who they are. They're certainly not the people I thought they were for all these decades. They now get all their news from GB news, and they're big fans of Nigel Farage and the like.

Conversation has become very awkward, and I see them less and less. But at the same time, they've been generous and kind (to me and my late DH) for many years. Had they not been, I'd no longer see them. And when we get together now I see it as an obligation and have to steer conversation away from the danger zones. But they're very keen to discuss them.

We all have our lines. I'm not brave enough to dump my friends. But I no longer like them.

saraclara · 30/06/2023 15:26

it’s not a man trying to control you. It’s simply people feeling your views and beliefs are far too different to their own to form a compatible and real friendship on any level

That. My friends' views are a huge barrier to the kind of friendship we used to have. If I met them for the first time now, there's no way we'd become friends.

Angelina1972 · 30/06/2023 15:31

I’m sorry you’ve been through this, how awful you must be so hurt. All I can say is that you’re probably right not to reach out to mutual friends but if they ever ask just say you feel hurt over what has happened. I’d leave well alone now and invest in other friendships. Yes they will feel different and maybe not as comfortable but I think in time you’ll start to feel stronger again. It’s only been a couple of months so the shock of being cut off is still raw. Re assess how you feel at the 6 month mark. No doubt he will be missing aspects of your friendship too, if not now, then in the future.

Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 15:34

Clymene · 30/06/2023 15:12

Can you show us examples of her Islamophobictweets @TedMullins?

Didn't she have some views on little girls wearing the hijab? I don't think she should wade in on that but probably she doesn't agree with the covering up of women/girls bodies or something. Not a debate I'd personally get involved in but I can see how having learned the hard way, that you can't just agree with part of someone's views when it is someone like KJK you are deemed to agree with all of them merely by attending an event she puts on and it's not something I'll do again because of that.

OP posts:
Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 15:42

I know we are all different but I find it hard to relate to those who would cut people off for having different views on political issues - for me, the only reasons I'd cut off a long term friend would be if they had formed a view on something really out there such as paedophilia being acceptable or something. Even something like casual racism, I would probably not cut off a friend of such long standing but would let them know I didn't agree with their views and maybe suggest they didn't mention them in my presence.

I get that for others, compatible views and beliefs are much more important and more of a friendship deal breaker than perhaps myself .

I have only cut off one 'friend' without a backwards glance and that was someone who stole money from me, of the borrowed and then went silent on me variety. He did eventually pay it back but by then I didn't want anything further to do with him and he accepted that.

OP posts:
TedMullins · 30/06/2023 15:46

Clymene · 30/06/2023 15:12

Can you show us examples of her Islamophobictweets @TedMullins?

I found screenshots yesterday with about 5 seconds of googling. You can do your own fact checking if you feel so inclined.

peachgreen · 30/06/2023 15:47

for me, the only reasons I'd cut off a long term friend would be if they had formed a view on something really out there such as paedophilia being acceptable or something

But perhaps to your friend, supporting KJK is that "out there"? It certainly would be to me.

Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 15:55

peachgreen · 30/06/2023 15:47

for me, the only reasons I'd cut off a long term friend would be if they had formed a view on something really out there such as paedophilia being acceptable or something

But perhaps to your friend, supporting KJK is that "out there"? It certainly would be to me.

I accept that perhaps I didn't do due diligence on her and attended the event as a GC friend from a womens group was going. Lesson learnt.

OP posts:
saraclara · 30/06/2023 16:07

All I did was post on facebook that i'd been to the event and had a good time and met Kellie in the pub afterwards.

I think that the last half of that sentence is possibly what tipped him over the edge. Meeting Kellie in the pub afterwards could easily be read to indicate much more involvement and approval of her than maybe you intended. It reads a bit fangirl to be honest.

senua · 30/06/2023 16:23

TedMullins · 30/06/2023 15:46

I found screenshots yesterday with about 5 seconds of googling. You can do your own fact checking if you feel so inclined.

Show quote history

Since Ted can't / won't provide examples, I had to go searching. Here's a piece from Helen Joyce.

Joyce activated, issue 21

Last weekend, I went to Brighton to attend the Standing For Women rally organised by Kellie-Jay Keen, aka Posie Parker. That has provoked a lot of criticism from people I like and respect—some of it in public, some through back channels.

https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-21/

HarpyValley · 30/06/2023 16:40

We are fast losing the art of nuance.

I do not agree with everything Kellie Jay Keen has ever said. I do not agree with everything Jeremy Corbyn has ever said. I do not agree with everything Rory Stewart has ever said. But in every one of those examples and on different topics, there are some things they have said that I do agree with. I applaud KJK's willingness to give any woman who wants to speak at her rallies the microphone. I have some socialist principles similar to Corbyn's especially about treatment of e.g. the disabled and homeless. I think Rory Stewart talks a lot of sense about the justice system. Etc etc.

Why are we allowing ourselves to lose the ability to think critically, to play the ball not the man, to have the freedom to agree with X statement but not Y opinion from any individual? Why does it have to be so tribal?

peachgreen · 30/06/2023 16:45

I don't think this was a tribal thing though. If I was a Labour voter I wouldn't expect my Jewish friends to disown me, but if I went to a Jeremy Corbyn rally I could understand if they did (even if I didn't agree). OP's friend didn't disown her for expressing gender critical views or even identifying herself as gender critical. He did so because she (in his view) supported a specific gender critical activist.

Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 17:01

saraclara · 30/06/2023 16:07

All I did was post on facebook that i'd been to the event and had a good time and met Kellie in the pub afterwards.

I think that the last half of that sentence is possibly what tipped him over the edge. Meeting Kellie in the pub afterwards could easily be read to indicate much more involvement and approval of her than maybe you intended. It reads a bit fangirl to be honest.

I can see that, but I didn't even know she'd be in that pub! Looking back, they must have found a terf friendly venue and the word spread to go there. All I knew was, one of my friends said to go to X pub.

Wishing I'd never been now, not because I no longer support women's rights but because I've got tangled up in something I didn't realise would be perceived as it has been.

OP posts:
Daffodilwoman · 30/06/2023 17:01

I would leave it.
As an aside if I refused point blank to engage with everyone who ever agreed with any policy I disagree with, read work by someone who’s beliefs I disagreed with,attended a concert of someone who’s views I didn’t like etc etc etc then I think I would have an extremely limited amount if people to talk to.

Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 17:03

HarpyValley · 30/06/2023 16:40

We are fast losing the art of nuance.

I do not agree with everything Kellie Jay Keen has ever said. I do not agree with everything Jeremy Corbyn has ever said. I do not agree with everything Rory Stewart has ever said. But in every one of those examples and on different topics, there are some things they have said that I do agree with. I applaud KJK's willingness to give any woman who wants to speak at her rallies the microphone. I have some socialist principles similar to Corbyn's especially about treatment of e.g. the disabled and homeless. I think Rory Stewart talks a lot of sense about the justice system. Etc etc.

Why are we allowing ourselves to lose the ability to think critically, to play the ball not the man, to have the freedom to agree with X statement but not Y opinion from any individual? Why does it have to be so tribal?

We are as a society losing the ability to agree to disagree. Its a travesty.

OP posts:
saraclara · 30/06/2023 17:33

We are as a society losing the ability to agree to disagree

That's true. But we're also learning that we don't have to people please and put up with things that we used to feel that we had to.

People didn't confront racists in the past, for instance. We were told to swallow our feelings and keep the peace (I'm old, so I remember!) Whereas now we're encouraged to have boundaries and to challenge other people's thinking.

Go onto the feminism board and you'll come across m GC people who've dumped friends our relatives for the reverse reason, and almost everyone on there has blacklisted companies who they consider have 'fallen'.

Charley50 · 30/06/2023 17:34

Kellie-Jay isn't racist, homophobic or islamaphobic. She centres all women and is about protecting all women and children's rights.

Clarice99 · 30/06/2023 17:34

I'm starting to think this thread was started to try to discredit KJK rather than present a real problem. The lazy slurs of those criticising on here suggest there's been a call put out to the TRA hive mind.

@EddieMunsen - I think you may be right

Wishing I'd never been now, not because I no longer support women's rights but because I've got tangled up in something I didn't realise would be perceived as it has been.

@BluebellBlueballs - so you'd rather pander to a man and his feelings? You're not tangled up in anything. You attended an event for an issue you claim as being important to you. Your 'friend' didn't like it and threw his toys out of the pram, calling time on your friendship. And you appear to blame yourself. I find that odd.

LozengeShaped · 30/06/2023 17:36

People didn't confront racists in the past, for instance.
I'm 60, and I remember my mother telling me as a child to speak up! She had racist friends, and always challenged them if they said anything. She didn't drop them. And I hope it made some of them think about what they thought.

Original poster
BluebellBlueballs · 30/06/2023 17:48

Clarice99 · 30/06/2023 17:34

I'm starting to think this thread was started to try to discredit KJK rather than present a real problem. The lazy slurs of those criticising on here suggest there's been a call put out to the TRA hive mind.

@EddieMunsen - I think you may be right

Wishing I'd never been now, not because I no longer support women's rights but because I've got tangled up in something I didn't realise would be perceived as it has been.

@BluebellBlueballs - so you'd rather pander to a man and his feelings? You're not tangled up in anything. You attended an event for an issue you claim as being important to you. Your 'friend' didn't like it and threw his toys out of the pram, calling time on your friendship. And you appear to blame yourself. I find that odd.

Yes, I wish it hadn't happened now.
It's just not worth it for the effect it's had on my mental health.

GC feminists are the easy targets in this cultural war, and I was prepared to fight the cause and put my head above the parapet before, but then I got a bullet in my head and I just can't do it any more.

OP posts:
MCOut · 30/06/2023 17:51

Charley50 · 30/06/2023 17:34

Kellie-Jay isn't racist, homophobic or islamaphobic. She centres all women and is about protecting all women and children's rights.

The vast majority of the woman in this world are not white. No one can reasonably claim to be fighting for women, whilst simultaneously lending their platform to white supremacists who actively seek to diminish the rights of most women.

saraclara · 30/06/2023 17:58

I was prepared to fight the cause and put my head above the parapet before, but then I got a bullet in my head and I just can't do it any more.

To be fair, trans allies aren't exactly tolerated by a lot (most?) of the strongly GC posters on the feminism board though. They get shot down constantly.

But I do absolutely agree with you that this had to be one of the most polarised subjects (if not THE most) today.

I've tried to have 'yes, but...' conversations with people on both sides of this subject, and been attacked for even considering that there might be some reasonable points to consider on the other side.

I can see the issues and problems faced by both trans people, and women who see our sex being sidelined (as I do). But I seem to be pretty much on my own in acknowledging and wanting to talk about those issues objectively.

pikkumyy77 · 30/06/2023 18:00

If a dear friend or relative told me they had attended a white pride/neo nazi event I would politely withdraw from the relationship. I really think there is no more to be said. Some political and policy beliefs don’t admit of a gray zone like a sports fandom or following a musical group for example.

Despite OP’s stance of bewilderment its not like the lines are not very clearly drawn. The so called GC movement is aligned publicly and proudly with eliminationist policies and agendas internationally and in the US which are not at all distinct from white supremacy and neo nazi policies.

OP can’t have her cake and eat it too. Not everyone in her friend group will shrug and say “fine by me just stay in the shallow end of the pool and avoid the sewage at the deep end.”

DrMorbius · 30/06/2023 18:14

Despite OP’s stance of bewilderment its not like the lines are not very clearly drawn. The so called GC movement is aligned publicly and proudly with eliminationist policies and agendas internationally and in the US which are not at all distinct from white supremacy and neo nazi policies

That is the biggest bunch of twaddle I have ever read om MN. So people who believe blokes with a penis are not woman and cannot have a baby are neo nazis. COMEDY GOLD.