Think this time really is the last time and we need to separate. Need help.

[lulupop]

Oh God, this could be such a long msg but no point going back to the yr dot with it all. DH and I just had a row and he has screamed at me (as usual, no self-control or thought for DS who was awake in his room) and left the house. I am shaking. I feel all fizzy.

We have had a volatile relationship for such a long time. Things go fine as long as I suppress my frustrations with him but if I bring up how I really feel, it all kicks off. He has no boundaries when it comes to losing tempers and will scream the most appalling things at me, usually in front of the children. We have had 2 separate periods of time going to Relate and all we achieved was that he agreed in principle to setting boundaries, taking time out etc when arguing, but it has always been only till the next time.

He's never been physically violent but he is a real bully and is so abusive I feel like nothing. Just now when I said I was sick of having the same argument over and over again and it made me feel there was no point carrying on, he screamed "Fine! Fine! I will go into work and resign and we can get divorced and you and the kids can have half of NOTHING. And I can tell them that you only married me for the money, you stupid fucking WHORE!"

Not sure what he meant about resigning. I am SAHM and only worked for 2 yrs before having DS. I have no idea how we would live if I left DH but I think I've reached the point where anything has got to be better than feeling like this. All the times we;ve had rows like this before, I've always thought "Don't do anything rash, just give things a chance to settle" and then it goes back to normal for a bit. But nothing changes, it all feels so hopeless now. I don't think I even like him - we certainly seem to be inhabiting different planets. I come from a happy home myself and can't bear the idea of my children not living with both their parents, but don't want them witnessing these sorts of scenes.

I feel stuck in Groundhog Day. No amount of counselling is going to change DH, and though I realise I could change as well, I don't think I can change my personality to accomodate the way he is. He can be very, very nasty when he thinks he's been betrayed, and I am afraid of what would happen if I said I actually wanted to separate formally.

I don't even know how to find a solicitor who could tell me what to do first.

I am supposed to be going to my parents' tomorrow for the night, but now I'm wondering if, if I do so, when I come back he'll have locked me out (he has done this before). What should I do?

Should I lock the door tonight so he can't come back in? I cannot face more of his screaming and ranting at me, with the children hearing it. But afraid of making him even angrier.

Hi lulupop, sorry to read this. Don't worry about what to tell ds, children will pretty much believe whatever you tell them at this stage. Tell him his dad wanted to see his mummy and you want to see yours. I agree, you need to get away to think about this. I'm glad your parents know what he's really like. Will they be supportive if you leave? The way your h treats you most certainly is abuse, please don't think it isn't. It makes me so cross and sad when I read about women trapped by controlling men but please listen to W&R and let her and others here help you. You're right, you can't go on like this by the sound of it. I don't know if it will be useful but the \link{http://www.womensaid.org.uk/\Women's Aid site is here}

thks www. I know that, however hard it is now, at the end of the day I will survive and so will hte kids. What is making me feel so sick is the thought that it doesn't need to be like this. Things seem to have totally broken down but it hasn't needed to be this way. I don't want to be unhappy the rest of my life, but equally I don't want to separate the children from their father. The thought of alternate weekends, Christmases, etc, just makes me feel ill. They are my babies.

They're very young lulupop, they'll be ok but can you live the rest of your life like this? I don't think you should have to.

I don't think I should have to either.

On the other hand, what am I going to say when they are older and ask me why Mummy and Daddy don't live together any more? It feels like such an unnecessary failure. So unfair for them.

lulupop - I'm so sorry you're going through this - but you need to make sure you and the kids feel safe above anything else.

It will be hard explaining to the kids why you and their dad aren't together anymore but wouldn't it be much harder and far more heartbreaking to have to explain to them why their father treats you like dirt and you're still together??

But lulupop, it's not your 'failure,' it's his. He is ill and you can't make him better. He can't get better on his own either. I strongly believe that children are better off with one happy parent who is divorced from an abusive partner than 2 parents who have stayed together supposedly for their sake but who are unhappy. And your h is making you unhappy. He is controlling and nasty and you've said yourself that if you had the money you'd have left when this happened before. So leave. And let everyone here help you work out how to get by financially. Sorry, I don't mean to bully you. Don't leave if you don't really want to or if you think something can be salvaged. But I don't think you should live like this and I also don't think you should stay if you're only stayiong because of your children.

but surely its better than them having to listen to you argue all the time and the mess it'll make of their heads when daddy keeps leaving for a few days at a time? I'm not speaking from personal experience, but can relate this to two friends. The first thinks she is responsible for all of her parents arguments, as that was all they did whilst she was at home and now she's left they've stopped arguing and aren't going to divorce?!!! (WHAT? and she wished they would for 20 years as it was making her so unhappy, she is a lovely person, who won't pick a fight with anyone btw) The 2nd is my friends who are both still together with a 6 year old dd, who is constantly living on a knife edge, asking if mummy and daddy are going to split up, even when their not arguing (which is usually daily) as she's that worried, Mummy in this case is putting off leaving at the mo, as finances are rubbish too, but the toll its having on their dd, is horrible to watch ( her mum sees that too and is slowly coming to a horrible realisation)

I know this isn't advice, but I just wanted you to kinda see it from the kids point of view if you continue? and I don't want to make you feel horrible, as I can't even begin to imagine how you must feel, so HUGS and do what you have to do x

brilliant advice www

Hi lulupop - new poster here, recently married and in week 12 of my first pregnancy so a bit less experienced than most of you ladies!

I'm very sorry to hear about the problems you've been having. My parents divorced when my brother and I were very young, approx the age of your kids, and I can honestly say we had a very happy childhood. Money was very tight but love and security were not. My parents maintained a civil 'working' relationship and although I made sure they weren't seated together at my wedding I didn't have the worry so many of my friends have had at graduations or other big family dos of which parent was going to go mad first. I honestly can't think of anything worse than growing up in a hostile environment, and with the best will in the world on your part, your kids will know things aren't right. :(

The only other advice I can offer is about your debt. I'm particularly concerned that the credit card debt is in your name only. Given some of your dh's comments about you accusing him of not earning enough, I'm worried he's laying the groundwork for claiming you ran up those debts on your own (on feeding his children, yes?!).

If you can, I'd suggest you make an appointment with the local Citizens Advice Bureau to talk about your debt situation, or give \link{http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk\National Debtline} a call. I think Mumsnet is great, but if you do want to chat with people who are dealing with debt and have a LOT of experience, one of my favourite bulletin board sites is \link{http://www.fool.co.uk\The Motley Fool}

Take care and I hope things work out for you.

Lulu and zephyr- lots of love to you. Sorry stuff is so very hard at the moment. Hope it will all work out. xxxxxxx

Lulu, my heart goes out to you. You must be feeling rotten at the moment. The sleep deprivation probably hasn't helped either.

My parents didn't separate until my bro was 14 and I was 22, and I so wish that they had done it a long time before that.

There are three reasons why I say this, firstly our house was quite a sad one to be in, as there was always an atmosphere. Even when they weren't arguing there was tension in the air. I wouldn't miss a day of school, even when I was really ill, as it was my escape from all this, and I got a job as soon as I was old enough so I didn't have to be in the house at weekends either.

As I was the oldest, my father used me as the reason for his arguments with my mum. Every time they rowed my name would be mentioned somewhere along the line. As you can imagine, I had to have counselling to sort a few issues out after this. My father also used me to "get at" my mum. As my dad had always wanted a son, he favoured my bro, which made my mum vey protective and defensive of me. So he'd constantly pick on me to upset her even further. (Luckily my bro and I are quite intelligent and realised that my dad has emotional problems, so we have never resented each other for any of this).

And lastly, my poor, poor mother only started living again when my dad finally left. She didn't have a job, hadn't worked for 20 years, hadn't driven a car for 15, but he picked herself up, got driving lessons, got herself some temping work, went to evening classes and when she'd eventually got hrself a full-time job (oly 12k p.a.), she managed to buy my dad out of the house (got a steep mortgage) but she did it. Now she's a whole new woman! She's got so much more vitality and so much more fun. Both my bro and I wish it'd happened sooner. We'd have had such a happier childhood.

And as for my dad? Well leopards don't change their spots although they might try to camouflage them. And chidren aren't daft. So after a while, I decided not to have any more contact with him and things have been gradualy fizzling out with my bro. Although we both love our mother to bits!

I don't know if my story is of any help to you, but perhaps it will give you another perspective to help you come to a conclusion about what is right for you, and your children.

I'll be thinking of you. x

Hiya, just checking in to see how you two are doing. Although, I haven't really got any new advice. I'll check back later.

Oh, I suppoe I could add that my parent's are divorced after many years of excessive drinking and uncontrollable greed. I'm the youngest of four, and I was 25 when they divorced. If I look back to my teenage years, I would say that I agree with several of the other posts here in that happily divorced parents are better than unhappily married ones.

Only you can decide at what point you throw in the towel. Everyone has limits to what they can and can't live eith, and you have to decide what your are. At what point is leaving better than staying? Tough decision, I know.

HTH

thanks so much for all your msgs - some of the stories of children of parents who fought a lot made me cry - really do not want my kids to grow up like that.

no time now as have to get off to parents but will check in tomorrow when I get back.

Hi Lulupop. Just been bringing myself up to speed on events. The advice you've received from the others has, as always, been superb and I'm sure it's helped.

I just wanted to say, if there's anything specific regarding your legal position, just ask. Don't be shy.

As for Court matters, don't worry. The Court staff are very friendly, some have even been known to smile...usually after they've been thrown a fish

Seriously though, the Family system is totally different from what people imagine it to be, and it's light years apart from the criminal system.

Hi everyone. My weekend is just getting better and better. Set off to mum and dad's, got onto the M25, and after being stuck in traffic for half an hour, the car broke down, Because the radiator is stuffed. Because DH can't even do basic things for me like change the oil and top up the radiator water

Breakdown man came and has brought me home again - such fun with a disappointed toddler (crying cos he wanted to go to granny's) and a screaming hungry baby.

Spoke to DH this morning. At first, I called him to find out what his plans are, and he just listens to ehat I say and says nothing. Just silence on the phone, as if it's simply all too much and he can't cope. Well someone has to get on with everyday life, and that's me, I can't just run away. So I got angry and he accused me of "escalating" the situation. I reminded him it was he who walked out last night, and woh involved both our parents.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the conversation that ensued was exactly the same as it always is: me "telling it like it is", him not responding other than to ask me why I am so negative and cold (like he expects me to be loving after he called me a stupid whore! you could't make it up, could you?), followed by him then making the right sort of noises about wanting to change. Yadda yadda yadda. I've heard it all before, not once, not twice, but many, many times. Things get better for a bit but nothing really changes.

He says he's coming home tomorrow. I don't know what to do. I don't want him to come home as I can't face the conversations we always have. It's either him getting angry or him saying sorry, I'll change. Either way, I feel we are stuck in this unending cycle of behaviour.

What do I do? In my heart I believe he will never really change, and so it must be better to leave now. But then when he's standing there, crying and begging me not to go, I always think this time he'll do it, he'll really listen to me.

Should I give him an ultimatum, like "Either you show me you are prepared to confront your depression and psychological issues, or we are over. I give you one year."? Or is that the wrong thing?

I really need to be strong and stick to my guns, but I don't know how to make him see that he always says the same stuff and then does nothing about it. If I call and say don't come home, he;ll go off the rails.

My poor children are having a crappy weekend too . DS just asked me "Mummy, why are tears falling down your face?" Poor little lamb.

lulupop be strong enough to know your own mind do you want him back, do you think this time would be different. hugs to you

No constructive advice to add - you've had masses here - but lots of sympathy
xxxxxx

just to let you know that i'm thinking of you this weekend. I hope things get better whatever you decide to do. x

gothicsanta, that;s exactly what I'm thinking: that I should know my own mind. I think my real belief is that dh is not going to change. We've been here so many times before and he hasn't changed before.

If there were no children involved, I'd definitely have moved on before now. But I just can't understand why he clings so rigidly to his belief that there's not that much wrong with the way he behaves.

I think what I need to work out is: what is my bottom line? What would I need to hear from him to believe this time could be different? I don't know the answer to that/ Maybe I need to draw up a pros and cons list or something.

Thank you all so much for your wonderful support and sympathy. If I didn't have MN to talk things through on, I think my head would have exploded by now.

Hi Lulu. I've just got off the phone to DH (who's out shopping!) and he advises this.

Take a blank piece of A4 paper and draw 2 lines lenghtways down the page and another line close to the top. This gives 3 spaces for headings.

In the first space, write FOR...in the 2nd write AGAINST...and in the 3rd write CHANGE.

Now, starting in the 1st column, write down the things for your H, in the 2nd, things against him and in the 3rd, the changes needed to be made.

You'll find 1 and 3 the hardest. But stick with it as it does work. BTW, if you have more items in the against column, it's not good news, sorry.

thanks w&r. I already know there are going to be a lot more items in the Against column, but I think it sounds like a good, rational exercise so am going to do it this evening when the children are asleep.

I was also thinking of finding out how much it would cost to rent a flat nearby for DH. I feel I can't live with him any more, and it's damaging our children for us to carry on this way, so the only solution is for him to be somewhere else for a while.

Also planning to find out about seeing a solicitor asap next week. I need to know where to go to find out about the benefits I could claim, as well as what I can expect from DH. I guess I am hoping that if I actually show him I am ready to separate, it might be the catalyst he needs to accept how unreasonable his behaviour is. And if it isn't, then I'm ready to venture into the dark unknown.

God, it makes me feel old, the difference between what I expected my marriage to be like and what has actually happened.

Lulu, I am sorry about your situation. I haven't read further than the message where you said you found your ds whimpering on the floor. That makes me very sad, and my immediate reaction is "get out quickly with your ds". Do you want him to think that this is how daddies treat mummies, that this is normal?

I know it's not that easy to leave, the prospect of being a single parent is a scary one. But believe me, being a single parent, although it is very hard, is much better than living like this day to day. I have been in your shoes: what you are telling us reminds me exactly of how things were with my ex. At first it was only verbal abuse, blaming everything on me, then breaking stuff and eventually he started hitting me which is when I locked him out and had to call the police (who were great) when he started kicking the door in.

Just remember you've only got one life, this is your one go. I know what you're saying about happy families and broken homes, but let's face it, yours is not a happy family no matter how much you try. Your little ds is obviously being very badly affected by the situation. Yes it will be hard if you break up, but you can rebuild your life, you can be happy again, you might find someone else who will treat you with the love and respect you deserve (I haven't found this person yet but I live in hope ).

I really really feel for you lulu. I hope you can find a solution that suits you.

Just reading throught the thread, picking up on things...

Lulu, you say it would be selfish of you to leave him in the hope of a happier life with someone else, that the kids need their dad.

First, I'd say, the most important thing for children is a happy mum. And a happy dad. The way things are now neither of you stands a chance of being happy.

Second, the kids can and hopefully will still see their dad if you separate. And what's wrong with a bit of selfishness anyway? You want to do your best to look after your children, I'm sure. But to be able to do that you need to look after yourself first. If you're not well in yourself, physically or mentally, it's difficult to give your kids 100%, IYSWIM. I hope I'm making sense!

There are things you can control and others you can't, like caching a cold. One thing you, and only you can control, is your personal happiness. I'm not talking about financial, material stuff here, just knowing you can be yourself, express yourself freely, and make your own decisions without someone trying to censure you or belittle you or patronise you all the time.

I really relate to what one of you said, was it Zephyr? That when her dp/h had been away for a week she felt happier and didn't miss him?

That's just it isn'it.

It made you realise life is rather good when there's no toxic person around. Think about it, it could be like that every day.

Yes, you might be poor and will perhaps have to downsize your lifestyle a great deal, you might have to go to court and all that it entails, but would you not rather face all this and feel free in your day to day life, than the misery that seems to be the life with your partner?

I can't give you advice on your rights and legal stuff, but you most certainly have some and there's no reason that you should ever be homeless for instance. There's people on MN like wigandrobe who can and do give you fantastic advice. You can also go to your CAB for free advice.

There is also lots of stuff on the internet. Will try to dig out some links, we had quite a few thread like these in the past.

Keep strong.

Seeing a solicitor asap, that's a good idea. However, finding a flat, that's his responsibility. You've done more than your share in trying to keep things together. It's time he stood on his own two feet and accepted full responsibility for his actions.

Whatever you do, try not to give in to his emotional blackmailing, such as blubbing and saying he'll change. Never be worried that he'll take the children from you, that won't happen, unless he abducts them.

What you have to bear in mind is, given his non-physical violence towards you, which has affected your child, he's on very thin ice in terms of contact, etc.

So, be strong. The law is on your side. More importantly, WE MNetters are on your side too.

Here are a few good links:
Here is a \link{http://helpabusedwomen.tripod.com/index-6.html\a verbal and emotional abuse checklist} which is a real eye opener.

This one explains \link{http://www.nspcc.org.uk/html/home/needadvice/domesticviolence.htm\the effects of domestic violence on children}.

\link{http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/hh/\Information and lots of related links on domestic violence}