Think this time really is the last time and we need to separate. Need help.

[lulupop]

Oh God, this could be such a long msg but no point going back to the yr dot with it all. DH and I just had a row and he has screamed at me (as usual, no self-control or thought for DS who was awake in his room) and left the house. I am shaking. I feel all fizzy.

We have had a volatile relationship for such a long time. Things go fine as long as I suppress my frustrations with him but if I bring up how I really feel, it all kicks off. He has no boundaries when it comes to losing tempers and will scream the most appalling things at me, usually in front of the children. We have had 2 separate periods of time going to Relate and all we achieved was that he agreed in principle to setting boundaries, taking time out etc when arguing, but it has always been only till the next time.

He's never been physically violent but he is a real bully and is so abusive I feel like nothing. Just now when I said I was sick of having the same argument over and over again and it made me feel there was no point carrying on, he screamed "Fine! Fine! I will go into work and resign and we can get divorced and you and the kids can have half of NOTHING. And I can tell them that you only married me for the money, you stupid fucking WHORE!"

Not sure what he meant about resigning. I am SAHM and only worked for 2 yrs before having DS. I have no idea how we would live if I left DH but I think I've reached the point where anything has got to be better than feeling like this. All the times we;ve had rows like this before, I've always thought "Don't do anything rash, just give things a chance to settle" and then it goes back to normal for a bit. But nothing changes, it all feels so hopeless now. I don't think I even like him - we certainly seem to be inhabiting different planets. I come from a happy home myself and can't bear the idea of my children not living with both their parents, but don't want them witnessing these sorts of scenes.

I feel stuck in Groundhog Day. No amount of counselling is going to change DH, and though I realise I could change as well, I don't think I can change my personality to accomodate the way he is. He can be very, very nasty when he thinks he's been betrayed, and I am afraid of what would happen if I said I actually wanted to separate formally.

I don't even know how to find a solicitor who could tell me what to do first.

I am supposed to be going to my parents' tomorrow for the night, but now I'm wondering if, if I do so, when I come back he'll have locked me out (he has done this before). What should I do?

Should I lock the door tonight so he can't come back in? I cannot face more of his screaming and ranting at me, with the children hearing it. But afraid of making him even angrier.

yes i just put him back in bed, think he's nearly asleep now.

I once said something to dh about not wanting ds (who is very sensitive to the tensions in the air) to gro up thinking what we have currently is a healthy relationship. And that I thought the way DH screams such foul language in front of him was unacceptable. DH said "Don't you dare threaten me with anything to do with the children"

So that's that then.

I get threatened to be killed if i mention leaving with the kids. So I guess that's that here too. Why do they do it?

I don't know. I hate bullies, never thought I'd end up married to one

I live in Kent Zephyr, but actually my mum and dad are near to you - they live in between Andover and Winchester, and that's where I spent my teenage years.

As for leaving with the kids... I've thought about it so many times but then think: Why should I take them away from their familiar environment, all their toys and friends and so on? Why can't he just go? Is there a way to make your dh/dp move out?

lulupop, heh hon, sorry, never had a mumsnet conversation with you before. But I'd just like to say that what he is doing constitutes abuse. He may not hit you but he is putting you through verbal and emotional domestic abuse. You have rights and, yes, I think you can make him move out. Try Refuge for help (think it's www.refuge.org.uk). They have a 24-hour helpline- 0808 2000247. They WILL NOT dismiss you because he has not been physically violent. Emotional abuse is taken just as seriously. I realy, really feel for you and hope you get help very soon. Lots and lots of love.

to right jak. emotional is as bad. imo

sorry too not to

There most certainly is a way in which you can remove your DH from the home. In fact, there are several. Sadly, nearly all require Court action.

Thinking long term though, how would you be financially if he did go?

That's why i always tell him to leave. He says No it's my house and you would get somewhere to go - great so he would rather i take the kids out of their home to a grotty bedsit or hostel or something.

If it gets bad lulu the offer is always there. I know I'm a complete stranger but I think sometimes I would rather be anywhere than deal with him (except my Mums - I hate her knowing whats going on with us - gives her reason to lecture me) :)

I really dont think there is a way to make them leave. Thats why I tell him that he has to sort himself out for the sake of the kids - not me. (Admittedly it is better for me but he agrees to more if he thinks it's for them)

Sorry - there is the court way......

Sending you lots of best wishes. Think what is the best that could happen & what would be the worse - could help you to make your decision. You don't have to live with this. Get all the advice you need & do whats best for you. I had a difficult childhood with parents arguing plus domestic violence. My mother was always worried what other people would think if they knew. She spent years of misery. She could have had a happy life when she was younger if she'd been brave enough to divoice sooner. But thats the effect of controlling behaviour.

Wow, I can't believe what I'm reading (now that I've discovered where you ran off to). I think I'm goign to have to back pedal a bit here. My DH doesn't do these things at all. His abuse and tantrums and strictly verbal. He has say some pretty mean things but NEVER a threat of physical violence.

Lulu, what would happen if when he returns you just calmly and politely explain that you think it would be a good idea for both of you to cool off and you are going to take the kids and go to your mums for the weekend. No threats. No I'm not coming back. Just taking a weekend break.

bless you zephyr - I think I'd be lost without MN! Also it is so hard to talk about this with friends - I've got a couple of local friends, really good mates, but they know us both and it would be so awkward suddenly coming out and saying actually I'm thinking of leaving him. especially if I then didn't, as have no clue how I and the kids would live.

W&R, financially we would be in shit shape. The house we live in is 90% mortgaged, though has risen in value quite a bit since we bought it so I guess we could get some money out there. As I already said, we are in quite a bit of debt as well. The job I did before kids is not something I cld go back to now, and I have no transferrable skills or valuable work experience. Also, bearing in mind we have 2 children under 4 I don't think anything I did for a job would cover childcare costs, and my family aren't nearby to help out.

If I'm honest, that is what has stopped me leaving before. I think if I had money of my own, I might well have gone last time this happened.

It's what stops me going lulu. If dp went i think we'd be in trouble!! But at the same time I know I'm not doing the children any good by dragging it out.

Do you still love him lulu? If he was willing to get help would you be willing to support him through it? or has it gone so far that you are just wanting it to be finished?

I know this is easy for me to say as I deal with it daily but yours is not an unusual situation.

The first thing is to ensure the well being of the children and yourself. This can be achieved by removing him from the home. You will then be entitled to claim benefits. What I need to know is, is the mortgage in joint names or his only?

I'll come back to that point when you reply. Going back to money, you are entitled to claim maintenance for the children under the Matrimonial Causes Act, 1973 and the Child Support Pensions and Social Security Act, 2000.

At the moment it's 15% of his earnings for 1 child rising to 20% for 2 children.

Before any CSA based award is made, you can request an interim payment based under Section 25 part 3 of the MCA, 1973 which relates to the financial needs of the children.

It does get a bit more complicated than this, but I wanted to demonstrate that you will not be left penniless.

I can't even answer that question any more zephyr. I say I love him, but I don't know if it's true any more.

I think he is so deluded about himself that I find it hard to respect him, tbh. how can you have love for someone with no respect?

I have tried to imagine how I'd feel if we split up and he met someone else. But I honestly can't imagine how it would feel.

I suppose I think if I really did love him then I'd be able to say so with conviction. But don't want to burn my bridges in case it can be saved. It's never going to be what I wanted my relationship with the father of my children to be, but maybe it could be just OK.

In my heart I think I can;t imagine living like this the rest of my life - I'm only 28 now, FFS. I find life with the children easier and more enjoyable when DH is not here having a strop and doing things "his way" (ie shoving sweets and milk at them regardless of proximity to meal times, and having TV on all the time so he can read the paper). All the good things I can think of about him relate to when he had no children and I was entirely devoted to his welfare. Then I felt in love, and loved.

Bit confused, all that, isn't it?

thank you so much w&r. the law is a total grey area to me - I suppose I naively imagine that if we separate, we might just somehow agree to terms and payments and so on, but I expect it could all turn very nasty if he felt that way inclined.

mortgage is in joint names.

overdraft on joint account.

major credit card debt in my name only (but it was only buying food when the OD was maxed out, honest!)

we have 2 beautiful children.

no, not confused. It's me - again!! Before we had our two, if he ever went away or i went away we were missing each other terribly, texting all through the night, and i really did love him. A few weeks ago he went away for a training week with work and i didnt even miss him. In fact it was quite nice being on my own. Does that mean I don't love him anymore? Or do I keep trying to get it back to the way it was in the hope that we can be a good family? I had his children because he was so perfect back then. Now he sits flicking the tv and oblivious to the point where i have to shout his name to get him to notice that dd is talking to him which makes me really angry and really sad.

When it's all said and done do you want it to be how it used to be? is it worth the fight?

How old is he lulu - I'm 27 and dp is 39.

sending hugs to lulu, uwila and zephyrcat, sqxxx

and to w&r for incredible generosity of her time and expertise.

Mine's 41. What makes me sad is I know loads of people round that age, and they are so full of life and vigour, while DH has no energy, never has had really, cares not a jot about his physical appearance (he was always "solid" but is now just overweight), and he seems more like he's 50 to me. It's like living with my dad. Except my dad is actually a lot more energetic!

Yes, I would like it to be back how it was, but I don't know that it can be, now. So much has been said, so many hurtful things. It's not good enough for him to just come back later and say "I didn't mean it, I was just angry". I feel detached from him now, when before if we argued I'd get really really upset and cry and run after him. I remember once before we were married, he actually packed my stuff in a suitcase, chucked it down the stairs of our block of flats, and told me to Fuck Off! And this was when we were living abroad and I knew no one else in the whole city! So what did I do? Begged him to forgive me and let me back in.

I'm not prepared to do that any more and that;s why we end up in these vicious rows - neither is prepared to "back down".

Okay, not a problem. I could cite chapter and verse regarding various items of legislation, but it'll give you a headache!

Suffice to say, if you instigated divorce proceedings, you would be the Petitioner and he the Respondent. It is the Respondent who pays the costs of such an action.

As for your concerns regarding payments, let him huff and puff, at the end of the day a Judge will have the final word, not him.

So, you need not fret regarding money.

Is he happy with his job or would he consider changing it? I think dp is having a bit of a mid-life crisis in that he is very much "I'm 40 and what have i done/what have i got/ what can i give my kids" etc etc. I try my best to boost his ego and tell him that its not material things that matter but the whole money/debt/crap job thing is really really getting to him.

Just noticed the time....eeek!!! I'm not abandoning you, I never do that. I'm off for my hot bath and early night...hopefully, that'll shift this infernal cold and blocked nose.

I'll be back. If you need me, just post a message with anyone who knows me and they're sure to nudge me in the right direction

Take care

Best Wishes

Jane xx

night w&r - thanks for your help here - hope you dont mind i'm making notes too! :)

I'm off to. Awfully tired. Good luck tonight. Ill look for you tomorrow. Hang in there.