Are strong independent women 'unloveable'?

[cleanbreak2022]

For context I am 39, mother of 2 young children. Was in a 15 yr relationship which broken down due to infidelity.

I am successful in my career, I own my home (hefty mortgage) drive a nice car, holiday once a year with possibly odd weekend away thrown in, with kids or with friends.

Many years ago, before I met my ex partner, someone I worked with, an older chap that I have a huge amount of respect for, said to me 'you're far too independent, no one will ever marry you, women like you are unlovable'. I was hugely taken back by it, it wasn't said in malice, more as an observation. My career wasn't established at that point and I was a receptionist with dreams of taking over the business (I did and became the first female director on the board).

Now I've been single for 16 months (no great shakes in time) but as my kids are with their dad and I'm sitting in the garden contemplating. I wonder if this could be true?

Am I, and women like me, with independence and drive who are financially independent and know their worth simply too much for most men?

I'd love to share my life eventually, but the impression I'm getting is, I'm a fantasy. A conquest to shag and put in her place? At work, yes I have to be firm, but out of work I'm completely the opposite.

I can't help wondering whether anyone will ever take the time to find that out? That I have this big old heart, that I love to laugh and I love music. That the simplest of things make me smile.

I won't 'dumb down' for anyone, the feminist in me wouldn't allow it. I am just wondering whether I am too much? I'm not horrendous looking, soft round the edges at a size 14 I have a good time with people, just think I'm intimidating?

No idea why you're giving some bloke's random neggy musings from X years ago any headspace whatsoever.

FWIW, I don't know any men who are like this- that's not to say that none exist, of course, but they're certainly thin on the ground in my profession (city law)- in most couples I know, both partners have fairly similar levels of education, career success etc, and it's normal for a husband to support and take pride in his wife's professional achievements.

I really think you've had some very bad luck, or else for some reason you're dating absolute losers. I can't see any reason why a man would want to put you in your place for what are (and I mean this nicely) not especially unusual achievements (and I don't mean to put your achievements down by saying that at all- I mean only that these achievements aren't unique to you) or why they would see you as only a fantasy.

If this keeps happening, I'd raise your bar for who you are dating. There are plenty of men out there who see a woman's professional success as admirable or (to put it bluntly) just normal.

I completely see where you're coming from. But men who think like that aren't worth your time anyway.

I'm very independent and self-sufficient and I have come across men who have absolutely loved that about me, and also a lot of men who have hated it and wished that I would just be a bit more of a damsel in distress. I've had someone say to me once "how are you going to find a man when you won't let any of them help you with anything?". Help me with what exactly? 😂

For me, I feel that being independent is knowing my own worth and knowing I can survive just fine by myself (emotionally and financially). I don't see it as a bad thing that some men are put off by it. It's an easy filter to get rid of the ones I don't want anyway!

But unlovable? Absolutely not. Incompatible with a good proportion of men? Quite possibly.

you're far too independent, no one will ever marry you, women like you are unlovable'.

Bloody hell, my mother said these exact words to me when I was 13 ——52 years ago!!! I wonder if your boss is still living in the Ark?

It’s utter twaddle, of course. Weak men are intimidated by anyone they can’t dominate.

I think it can be difficult to have two alphas in a couple - yes, I know there are exceptions. I would be seen as successful professionally. After working my way through a lot of alphas who didn't work out I married a quiet scientist who dazzled me with his intellect. We have been together over 30 years and I'm still pleased to see him when he comes home and he's been very supportive of my career.

Strong, independent women are fabulous. But they also need to be decent humans and not misunderstand what ‘strong and independent’ is.

There’s plenty of not that nice women out there, some of them are ‘strong and independent’.

@Magaluf FWIW, I don't know any men who are like this- that's not to say that none exist, of course, but they're certainly thin on the ground in my profession (city law)- in most couples I know, both partners have fairly similar levels of education, career success etc, and it's normal for a husband to support and take pride in his wife's professional achievements.

On Mumsnet I see so many people with views like this, a bit like @KettrickenSmiled also who apparently sees enough to think there are 'millions' of women out there in senior professional jobs as a single mother of 2.

Either these posters are wilfully blind or friends with massive statistical outliers. In city law, or banking, consulting or executive roles many partners might have equally educated spouses, but how many of them are working full time, or in equally responsible roles? There are some, but very, very few, and those few often have more than one nanny.

Even fewer are single parents. There are 1.8m single mothers in the UK, and of those only about half with primary aged kids are in work of any kind, of any houses. As another women in a position like OPs, it does make you feel like a rarity, and people can be very judgemental, even compliments can be double edged.

Op, you probably do have some of your work face and demeanor on when you meet men, and many will find it intimidating. It's up to you to decide whether that's not actually the real you, and how to show your vulnerability along with your success - or maybe it is you, and you are tough and amazing and it's better to show that, because it's a good way to get rid of time wasters and leave you open to the right guy who will love who you are.

Cantstaystuckforever

this thread is interesting . I’m another of the single mums of two who work ft

i feel really lucky to be honest
I’m solvent enough (not too solvent ) , and I have my kids . I’m not all ‘my kids are my life ‘ but they are mostly on my watch and I think that’s better for them right now

i think as time goes on there will be more of us
We have to be strong 💪 as our kids need us and men can be ..unreliable ….

Unloveable perhaps but you don't want to be loved by that sort of man!

Strong independent women are not 'unloveable' but we frighten some men. Fortunately , the men who get frightened won't meet our needs anyway.

Same here, lone parent, full time professional job. I think there are more of us than people realise and we are setting an excellent example to our children. Any man who can't handle that isn't worth having. Or who is needy and behaves like a child himself. So many people seem to be in miserable relationships with the type of misogynistic or co-dependent men or men who need to be the centre of everything and expect a woman to dote on them like an extra child, as described in the thread. Definitely a plus point to repel those types with no effort!

Either these posters are wilfully blind or friends with massive statistical outliers. In city law, or banking, consulting or executive roles many partners might have equally educated spouses, but how many of them are working full time, or in equally responsible roles? There are some, but very, very few, and those few often have more than one nanny.

Wilfully blind- no. A statistical outlier- I don't think so, although equally my social group isn't bang-on average. Possibly more accurate to say that birds of a feather flock together- I probably don't know any men who hold these views because I don't hold them, don't tend to mix with people who hold them etc. Not only that but even in my parents' generation this sort of view would mark you out as a sexist- my mum's 70 and it was completely normal for her and her friends to have careers.

Certainly I know some couples where one partner has changed role or gone PT after having children (and not always the woman) but they're not the majority and in those cases the partner with the bigger job continues to respect the other.

It's simply wrong to say that there are "very very few" women with children working in law (like me and my colleagues), banking etc although you are right of course that people employ nannies- not sure how that's relevant though.

I just don't think it's helpful at all to suggest to OP that being strong and independent makes you unloveable, that these views are typical or something she should be expected to put up with. There are loads of men who have no issue at all with a successful woman and see it as the norm for a woman to have a career- literally millions of them. If that's not the case in her social circle, she would do better to look further afield. Fewer dates with less sexist men.

On Mumsnet I see so many people with views like this, a bit like @KettrickenSmiled also who apparently sees enough to think there are 'millions' of women out there in senior professional jobs as a single mother of 2.
The gender pay gap still exists, & is predominantly driven by women working part time, or taking significant time out of the workplace, in order to raise children. As evidenced by the fact that women in their 20's out-earn men, but this statistic reverses for older women.

@Cantstaystuckforever There are approx 32 million people working in the UK.
In 2019, 26% of women were earning more than their partners.
It's not enough, & women are still seriously disadvanted (by childbirth & other facets, including bias) - but that is still millions of women.

btw I didn't claim that women who are senior, or who out-earn their partners, are all single mothers of 2. That's something you've conflated yourself.

Either these posters are wilfully blind or friends with massive statistical outliers. In city law, or banking, consulting or executive roles many partners might have equally educated spouses, but how many of them are working full time, or in equally responsible roles? There are some, but very, very few, and those few often have more than one nanny.
Neither wilfully blind, nor referencing outliers.
Try looking at sources like the ONS & Full Fact. There's no "apparently sees" about it - I am quoting facts & official stats.

I'd also add that it's depressing how often on this site women blame themselves for men's shitty behaviour, and how often other women agree with them. There are endless posts from women wondering whether their bad experiences are down to something about them- Am I unloveable because I'm successful? Did he ghost me because I'm size 16? Did he stop returning my calls because I mentioned my kids?- and other women lining up to suggest they're right and that they need to play up their vulnerability, put more full length shots online etc etc. The fact is that some men are shits and act in a shitty way and these days that's facilitated by OLD (much easier to ghost someone completely unconnected to your social circle) and, as ever, women are left trying to find the reason and concluding it's something wrong with them. It almost always isn't.

@Magaluf such a good post. Women tearing other women down all the time. So tiresome and short-sighted. There have been so many threads full of this stuff in the last week alone, it's depressing.

I do think regardless of how modern we all try to be, there’s a reason why we’ve always had gender roles and why that always worked better than what society seems to have now

dont get me wrong, I’m NOT saying every woman should quit working and spend her days in the kitchen in unhappy marriages because she doesn’t have the finances to leave

women are hardwired to have babies and care for them, men are hardwired to provide. That’s nature. Families stayed together more years ago when that was a thing. Again, I’m not blaming women (I’m a woman myself) I’m just saying that when we act against our gender roles I do think it has an effect. I don’t think men are scared of independsnt women at all.

In your situation I just think you’ve met the wrong men. Ones that don’t want a serious relationship. Plenty of women who have part time jobs on a small salary and aren’t ‘wildly independent’ haven’t met the right man yet.

I will admit though I don’t understand this whole ‘I don’t need a man’ attitude. Because we do, don’t we? Just like men need women, and there’s nothing wrong with that. We all need someone to love and to love us back, and I think that proves that love trumps career at the end of the day.

Women are taught from being small that we need to prioritise our careers…. That we must get a decent job before having kids. A lot of women then get to 35, with a decent career and savings in the bank with their own home and car on the drive and admit all they really want is a husband and a child and they’re scared that time is running out.

@cleanbreak2022 i have had this comment too. From my parents and guys I have dated in the past. I was told I have nothing to fix or help.

However I met my now DP. He loves that I am independent and can do stuff for myself, career driven and just gets stuff done. He loved to help but knows I will ask if needed.

Bit the difference is, I don’t mind him helping and he will do it without a fuss. We are not codependent but make a great team

Are strong independent women 'unloveable'?

To answer your question, OP, no. Strong, independent women are not unloveable. Any more than strong, independent men are not unloveable.

Depressingly, I see a lot 'men are horrible, childish, sexist, etc' attitudes on MN. This thread is a perfect example of that. I would be appalled if this thread were started by a man saying those types of things about women and I'm no less dismayed by women saying those things about men.

And I don't think that the comment by your former colleague makes him some kind of evil, sexist, misogynist dinosaur (though I am probably the only one who feels that way). He made a comment based on his experience / observations. Feel free to agree or disagree but you can't judge someone based on one comment.

It works both ways: it's not strength or independence that makes a person 'unloveable' but a person's attitude, their expectations and how they treat other people.

@EJRB you think gender roles are hard wired? Lordy. 🤣🤣🤦🏻‍♀️

I will admit though I don’t understand this whole ‘I don’t need a man’ attitude. Because we do, don’t we?

Errr... no!

It works both ways: it's not strength or independence that makes a person 'unloveable' but a person's attitude, their expectations and how they treat other people.

Riiiight. So negging young women to make them feel inferior is fiiiiine, nothing misogynistic about that man at all.

FML.

women are hardwired to have babies and care for them, men are hardwired to provide.

Good grief. This must be the stupidest comment I've read today and I've read quite a few. I am female and would run a mile in tight shoes to get away from babies and children. I am 'hardwired' to provide for myself.

He made a comment based on his experience / observations

... which consisted of treating women he has met as inferior to him.

Don't you think that might have coloured his experiences and observations somewhat?

I have no idea as I've never met the man. And you?

My strength, intelligence and independence were big factors in my husband’s interest when we met. And I was also a single parent.

Twenty years later, no regrets. You deserve someone who appreciates you for who you are, a partnership that encourages both of you to grow, not anyone who’d demand you make yourself smaller

This. Absolutely. Hold off for someone who is your equal.

Hahahahaha no. I really, viscerally do not want kids. I don’t like babies. I am a woman. It would be acting against my nature to have a baby because my nature is that I don’t want them. I’m not sure what history books you’ve been reading but I don’t think traditional gender roles did great things for women in the past.