Are strong independent women 'unloveable'?

[cleanbreak2022]

For context I am 39, mother of 2 young children. Was in a 15 yr relationship which broken down due to infidelity.

I am successful in my career, I own my home (hefty mortgage) drive a nice car, holiday once a year with possibly odd weekend away thrown in, with kids or with friends.

Many years ago, before I met my ex partner, someone I worked with, an older chap that I have a huge amount of respect for, said to me 'you're far too independent, no one will ever marry you, women like you are unlovable'. I was hugely taken back by it, it wasn't said in malice, more as an observation. My career wasn't established at that point and I was a receptionist with dreams of taking over the business (I did and became the first female director on the board).

Now I've been single for 16 months (no great shakes in time) but as my kids are with their dad and I'm sitting in the garden contemplating. I wonder if this could be true?

Am I, and women like me, with independence and drive who are financially independent and know their worth simply too much for most men?

I'd love to share my life eventually, but the impression I'm getting is, I'm a fantasy. A conquest to shag and put in her place? At work, yes I have to be firm, but out of work I'm completely the opposite.

I can't help wondering whether anyone will ever take the time to find that out? That I have this big old heart, that I love to laugh and I love music. That the simplest of things make me smile.

I won't 'dumb down' for anyone, the feminist in me wouldn't allow it. I am just wondering whether I am too much? I'm not horrendous looking, soft round the edges at a size 14 I have a good time with people, just think I'm intimidating?

Yes this! Any men who think this are losers helpfully filtering themselves out.

I’m younger than you but I’m ambitious, opinionated, independent and successful and I have a wonderful partner who loves me for who I am. I don’t need him, I choose to be with him because he enhances my life, and I hope he feels the same - I wouldn’t want someone feeling they needed me to fill up a gap in their life.

That said, before I met him I was happily single and if we break up I’d be happily single again if I didn’t happen to meet anyone else. I’d rather be single forever than have to dumb myself down for some inadequate manbaby.

Where did you get that from? I mean I don't know if it's true or not but seems an odd thing to say

There are certainly some men who are threatened by women who are too independent, too clever, or not adoring enough - I’ve literally had men say to me that they would never date any woman as intelligent as themselves because “they don’t want their girlfriend disagreeing with them”.

But would you actually want to go out with a man who thinks like that? I’d rather be single.

I think financially independent and highly successful women are loveable but the type of man they attract will not fit into stereotypically gendered male roles as in he would be the type to like being a stay at home dad instead of wanting to be the main earner. Perhaps he's artsy, submissive, gentle and 'soft'.
I think if she wants her male equivalent in success and money it would narrow her pool further because her male equivalent tend to want to have the upper hand and tend to marry down financially prioritising different things such as her age and looks over her career.

Many years ago, before I met my ex partner, someone I worked with, an older chap that I have a huge amount of respect for, said to me 'you're far too independent, no one will ever marry you, women like you are unlovable'. I was hugely taken back by it, it wasn't said in malice, more as an observation.

How were you able to continue respecting him?

Why do you think it wasn't malicious? Sure it was malicious! He'd just issued a generalised proclamation that independent women are unlovable. He wouldn't say that about a man. He clearly thinks women's place is to be subordinate to men, & dependent on one man.

you're right, he is a dinosaur, but I think what he said was true.
Then you're a dinosaur too, aren't you.

I honestly get the impression men want to be able to say they slept with me, rather than get to know me. It's so demeaning.
That's not because you're a strong, independent woman OP 😂
It's because many men act this way!
There's nothing special about you to attract this specific behaviour, get over yourself.

You need to broaden your horizons & focus on men who don't think this way, & who want to meet women as equals. Mind you, it won't be easy, as you clearly hold the same beliefs as Mr 'Respectful' Dinosaur.
So a good place for you to start might be by losing the false impression you have of yourself as uniquely off-putting -
I'd love to share my life eventually, but the impression I'm getting is, I'm a fantasy. A conquest to shag and put in her place?
You know there are millions upon millions of independent, bright women on this planet, no? Maybe you're hanging out with the wrong men, & need to find higher quality types who actually like women. Or maybe what's putting them off isn't your independence, but your astonishing arrogance in believing that you are so very different to other women.

Well, the old geezer was wrong wasn't he? You found someone and had a long-term relationship with them.

It's only been 16 months, please don't start doubting yourself. Focus on your happiness and that of your children and the right man will come in time.

A man who couldn't cope with a woman's success would be deeply unattractive to me in any case. Those types of men are simply not worth the effort!

I think OP you are overthinking this a little. Any decent bloke worth having as a partner will find your independent nature very sexy and attractive, honestly.

In the nicest possible way, if the guys you are seeing feel a little threatened and intimidated by you then maybe you just need to set your sights a little higher, hopefully you can find a guy who isn't quite as insecure?

Happy hunting! :)

The man who said that was a misogynist.
Of course there are dicks about but you don’t want to be with those types.
Keep you boundaries high op. Plenty of men like intelligent, independent women.

Sorry not read the whole thread but you've basically said (if I understand correctly) you have a award exterior and softer interior.

Maybe the hard exterior is attracting the wrong type of bloke for you. What are you like on early dates

You can still be strongly independent, whilst still being approachable OP. Those are two very different non overlapping things :)

Or maybe what's putting them off isn't your independence, but your astonishing arrogance in believing that you are so very different to other women.

Wow, where have you got that from? That's a bit harsh!

The fact is that with a well-paid career, owning her own home and affording a good lifestyle for her and her children independently while working to provide that and being a single parent to two kids, the OP is clearly different to the majority of women.

Sure, there are plenty of us out there who do it. But the vast majority of women are dependent financially on a man in some way with entangled finances or housing, or aren't sufficiently independent to feel they are happy to be single and find the idea of that scary, or aren't successful enough in their careers to provide a lifestyle like that for their children on their own while also managing to raise children alone.

There are posts here daily about how many women can't bring themselves to leave miserable relationships or even to leave abusive men, how they'd never cope alone, how they can't provide for themselves, how they can't cope with full time work and children even with a partner. There was even a post here about how it would be horrible if a partner said they didn't need you, like they thought a co-dependent relationship is normal and healthy! 🤣 It's not arrogance for her to recognise her worth and expect a partner who is her equal and deserves her time. And her question was about something a man had said to her, not her own opinion of herself.

My mother raised 3 very independent strong girls, now we are woman. 2 of us married and 1 is not.
We don't need husbands, it's definitely a partnership. My husband loves me, for me. We are also raising 2 independent, strong minded teenage girls. They are not sheep, are very aware of their worth and strength.

I don't think it makes them or me unlovable, but it will take a special man to love them. Someone who is strong and doesn't want someone that needs them.

The fact is that with a well-paid career, owning her own home and affording a good lifestyle for her and her children independently while working to provide that and being a single parent to two kids, the OP is clearly different to the majority of women.
@Nepmarthiturn

Because millions of women are in OP's position, it's very far from unique.
Also because she used the telling phrase "I work in a male-dominated industry" (beloved of the 'I'm so different from most women!' trope-fancier) while simultaneously claiming to not know what men want - Am I, and women like me, with independence and drive who are financially independent and know their worth simply too much for most men?

You'd think working around so many men would clue OP in to the fact that - just like women, they are not a collective with a hive mind.

There are posts here daily about how many women can't bring themselves to leave miserable relationships or even to leave abusive men, how they'd never cope alone, how they can't provide for themselves, how they can't cope with full time work and children even with a partner. There was even a post here about how it would be horrible if a partner said they didn't need you, like they thought a co-dependent relationship is normal and healthy! 🤣 It's not arrogance for her to recognise her worth and expect a partner who is her equal and deserves her time. And her question was about something a man had said to her, not her own opinion of herself.
Women in abusive relationships who are, or believe they are, trapped in them are no less strong or intelligent than women who have been lucky enough to avoid them. Just more ground down.

It's concerning that OP is taking as gospel the words of some old sexist said to her decades ago when she was a very young woman, & believing them. As if there is something uniquely off-putting about her. Why would there be? She wrote about her work exterior maybe being too much for some men, but surely the place to meet men (especially for a senior - so inappropriate to date a junior) is outside of the workplace, where she doesn't need that hard front?

But OP may well work in a male-dominated industry? I can't see why you think she'd have said that if she didn't. The fact is that by being financially and emotionally independent she is different to the vast majority of women; although there are many of us, we're far from the majority. I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to discuss this issue and the impact of it because if she does so she'll be accused of "arrogance". And yes sadly it is women who become dependent emotionally or financially who get stuck in abusive and miserable situations and feel unable to leave.

As for your final point, all women (and people) are allowed to have insecurities aren't they? And what this man said to her deliberately targeted that insecurity (classic negging), for the exact reason that that type of man hates women who aren't vulnerable and don't need men like them.

It's a message embedded in our culture by misogyny, that there must be something wrong with women like this so of course she has internalised it to some extent as almost everyone has including you based on your posts, and he used this deliberately to try to bring her down. Why should this topic be off limits for her to discuss without being accused of the same kind of thing even by other women? "Oh you must be arrogant!". How depressing. You are playing into the hands of the misogynists by making women feel ashamed for being targeted in this way for daring to talk about it.

@KettrickenSmiled

I don't think believing his statement to be true makes me a dinosaur. I don't agree with the statement, but that doesn't mean it may not be true.

The reply I gave clarifying I work in a male dominated industry was in response to someone asking why I felt people may find me intimidating if it hadn't been said to me. I was merely pointing out that it has been said to me. It was entirely irrelevant to the question I posted.

I don't think I am arrogant inherently. Possibly in a professional capacity. I would take that on board. I'm certainly proud of my professional achievements but my post wasn't about me specifically, it was whether what was said to me holds any weight in society.

I certainly do not try to date anyone I work with, that just happens to be where most of my interactions with men happen. Which does shape my expectations and experiences.

I think what your response did highlight to me, is that the circle of men I do encounter is very small (I dont really have much of a social life outside of the children). Perhaps I am guilty of judging people with a relatively small example group. I haven't until now made a conscious decision to change that.

I think in summary what I am guilty of is performing a role at work, a role at home and perhaps I haven't taken the time time to get to know me again, after the breakdown of my relationship. So I naturally (not consciously) go into work mode when meeting new people.

As another poster mentioned, my guard is up and that is most likely off putting along with being in work mode and that's something I need to work on.

I think what the thread has shown me, is that an overwhelming amount of successful women have had similar said to them. A couple by their mothers. So there is a thread of truth to the statement made.

So it raises more questions, not for me, but as a society. Are we raising our daughters (or did we) that vulnerable or needy is attractive?

I've found the thread interesting to read (the good, the bad and the ugly). It's certainly given me points to consider personally.

But OP may well work in a male-dominated industry? I can't see why you think she'd have said that if she didn't.

I don't disbelieve her.
I just find it hard to understand that someone who works with a variety of men, day in, day out, is basing her view of whether she is dateable or not on something some old sexist said to undermine her several decades ago.

I've worked in male-dominated industries, & (having been to an all-girls school) it taught me than yes - SOME men want compliant arm candy that will never challenge them, & that SOME men value strength & independence.
And some men want a variety of anything in-between, because men, like women, are individuals.

I don't think believing his statement to be true makes me a dinosaur. I don't agree with the statement, but that doesn't mean it may not be true

You acknowledge his statement made him a dinosaur, &said you agreed with it. But now you no longer agree with it?

Well that's a great start! Just dismiss him. Or anyone who talks like this to you, Men only say shit like this to women to control & diminish them. The best thing you can be is yourself, with all your personal strength & vulnerabilities.

Well obviously. As i said in my own posts OP should look upon it as good fortune that the undesirable men who think like this will filter themselves out of her dating pool, making it easier for her to find the ones potentially worth her dating.

However, that in no way justifies the other unpleasant comments you made to the OP.

I think what your response did highlight to me, is that the circle of men I do encounter is very small (I dont really have much of a social life outside of the children). Perhaps I am guilty of judging people with a relatively small example group. I haven't until now made a conscious decision to change that.

I think in summary what I am guilty of is performing a role at work, a role at home and perhaps I haven't taken the time time to get to know me again, after the breakdown of my relationship. So I naturally (not consciously) go into work mode when meeting new people.

As another poster mentioned, my guard is up and that is most likely off putting along with being in work mode and that's something I need to work on.

Cheers for the update OP, as this was puzzling me.
I had thought you small pool was because you were considering men that you work with as potential dates. Probably a bad idea, as it often can be, especially for women - if it doesn't work out, it's always the woman who is subtly (or worse) blamed for it, society & power differentials being what they are. But especially as a very senior woman - dating anybody more junior opens you up to speculation, gossip & even accusations.

Now I see it's more about not having had the time to cultivate a broader social life (or maybe even OLD), & that it's your work persona being carried as a shield into new social situations that might be blocking progress.

fwiw - keep your guard up. If a man is worth your time, he will give YOU the time to get comfortable enough to let him see your softer side.
And don't let any man tell you that you are too strong/smart/confident/independent. Any man who tells you that you are too much ANYTHING is only giving you his opinion - that HE personally can't handle you, so it's easier to blame you for that than deal with his own insecurities & probably misogyny. Women with good jobs, paying their own way, are hardly unusual any more in the west. Any man who seeks to put you down for it has just done you the favour of qualifying himself out of your prospect list.

I understand what you are saying op. My marriage also broke down due to infidelity (on his part) but he made a comment once that I don't need him and he was right. I loved him more than I can say and we built a life and family together but I was independent and we both knew I could survive on my own. It was certainly the preferred option for me than to stay with a cheat.

I met my dp 3.5 years ago and he would have moved in together and at least have got engaged by now but I don't want either. I now own the family home after buying out my ex, I have a car and a decent job and I need to know I am ok on my own.

I am working on softening a bit though and I think we will move in together at some point, but I know it will be because I want to, not because I need to.

So I could be seen as 'too independent' but when it comes down to it, I am the only person who will look after me. I want a partner who adds something to my life but not who I rely on and if that puts people off (I think it did when I was dating) then that's fine - they are not for me and more than I am for them.

I don't agree that strong independent women are 'unloveable' but I do think that they are completely incompatible with a a decent proportion of men.

I have rarely seen relationships that have a power dynamic that is completely even. There is nearly always one partner that has the larger influence and bigger say in what happens. From my experience, it is all about personality types and traits. So for example, my grandparents lived in a time when women would really struggle financially and culturally to be 'strong independent women' in the practical sense you describe today, yet my grandma absolutely had the mentality of a strong woman and was the more dominant force in their happy and healthy marriage. My other grandfather would not have tolerated this and therefore chose a more submissive and easy going wife. The two strong characters in a marriage together would have been an absolute nightmare and unpleasant for all involved. As things worked out, both couples enjoyed many many wonderful decades together.

I suppose what I'm saying is two strong and independent people are more likely to experience friction as both will be naturally inclined to want to lead certain aspects of family life.

From my experience, a lot of men love the idea of strong, independent women until it threatens their ego. You get the hangers on of course, those men who would happily live in your house rent free whilst you pay for everything (cocklodger.) But a vast majority suddenly become de-masculated when a woman can pay her own bills and do her own DIY. I've actually had "well what do actually need me for..." When me fixing the toilet has dented an ego. A lot of men are very happy to slip into the stereotype roles of she does most for the kids and the house and earns less in the end. Not all but a lot!

DH says not 😁
Its actually a good way of weeding out insecure misogynists

I think there's a lot of truth in that but as you say those sound like quite dominant personalities. Being independent doesn't necessarily mean you want to be dominant over someone else or "take the lead". I'd find that exhausting, more like parenting that a relationship! To me independence rather means that you won't be dominated or controlled by others not a desire to do that to them. Wanting someone else of the same mindset who has their own initiative and is not needy or dependant: a relationship of equals.