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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

552 replies

biwncs · 28/12/2022 14:19

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

OP posts:
YRGAM · 03/01/2023 14:20

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 11:26

I'm really surprised at some of the responses on this thread. Every sexual encounter carries a risk of pregnancy.
It does but consent should be freely given and informed.

If either party deliberately witholds information that would likely affect whether the other person would agree to sex then they're being immoral.

The standard Mumsnet line too often seems to be that men are either willing to become fathers, or they abstain, or they should have a vasectomy.
Aka live a sexless life throughout adulthood until you're happy to have a baby, only have sex if you're happy for a baby to arrive in 9 months, or you're ready to decide you don't want any children and have surgery to prevent it.

Yeah don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what she has done is right in any way, be that morally or arguably legally. But the fact remains that if you have sex there is a risk you will conceive a child. All men know this. The conception and delivery is not that child's fault, and the man who contributed to creating that child should contribute to its upbringing.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:20

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:10

Only if you think men can get pregnant.

What about the situation in where a woman wants to get pregnant? And she only consents to sex to get pregnant but the man is lying (i.e. he has had the snip and not telling her)

Do you class that as rape?

5128gap · 03/01/2023 14:21

LaLuz7 · 03/01/2023 14:16

You're right, it's not comparable because women have the option to abort, therefore they can't ultimately be trapped into parenthood. Which makes it worse when the victim of the deceit is a man who has no such escape button.

To clarify, your reversed gender comparison is that of a woman impregnated against her will?
And you're suggesting the situation in the OP is worse than that, because a woman has the privilege of the 'escape button' of termination?

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 14:37

YRGAM
Agree with you.
He should pay maintenance because that's the right thing to do.

The actions of women like the OP are fundamentally immoral though.
I wonder if she's going to be honest with her child that the reason child doesn't have a relationship with her father is because her Mum was a liar and thinks that consent doesn't needs to be informed.

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:38

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:20

What about the situation in where a woman wants to get pregnant? And she only consents to sex to get pregnant but the man is lying (i.e. he has had the snip and not telling her)

Do you class that as rape?

No, I don’t count that as rape. Or relevant to the thread. Or relevant to the idea that only women can get pregnant. Do you count that as rape?

Eleganz · 03/01/2023 14:43

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:20

What about the situation in where a woman wants to get pregnant? And she only consents to sex to get pregnant but the man is lying (i.e. he has had the snip and not telling her)

Do you class that as rape?

It isn't rape. There was a court case recently won on appeal about a guy who lied to a woman about having a vasectomy and it was not classed as rape (he was a serial sexual abuser and rapist and is serving time for other crimes. It appears that the law stops at physical barriers like condoms. I'm not sure about the legal arguments but that is where we are.

Obviously it is still clear deceitful and immoral behaviour.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:50

Eleganz · 03/01/2023 14:43

It isn't rape. There was a court case recently won on appeal about a guy who lied to a woman about having a vasectomy and it was not classed as rape (he was a serial sexual abuser and rapist and is serving time for other crimes. It appears that the law stops at physical barriers like condoms. I'm not sure about the legal arguments but that is where we are.

Obviously it is still clear deceitful and immoral behaviour.

Ah that's interesting.

So basically

  1. Woman lies about contraception to get pregnant. - Not assault
  2. Man lies about contraception to get the woman pregnant. - Assault
  3. Woman wants a child but man lies about his fertility - Not assault
  4. Man wants a child but woman lies about her fertility - Not assault

Is that correct? Only 2 is assault? I can get 1 not being assault but I feel like 3 & 4 should be sex by deception

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:53

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:50

Ah that's interesting.

So basically

  1. Woman lies about contraception to get pregnant. - Not assault
  2. Man lies about contraception to get the woman pregnant. - Assault
  3. Woman wants a child but man lies about his fertility - Not assault
  4. Man wants a child but woman lies about her fertility - Not assault

Is that correct? Only 2 is assault? I can get 1 not being assault but I feel like 3 & 4 should be sex by deception

Yes. Because only one of them is impregnating someone’s body without their consent.

5128gap · 03/01/2023 14:54

LolaSmiles · 03/01/2023 14:37

YRGAM
Agree with you.
He should pay maintenance because that's the right thing to do.

The actions of women like the OP are fundamentally immoral though.
I wonder if she's going to be honest with her child that the reason child doesn't have a relationship with her father is because her Mum was a liar and thinks that consent doesn't needs to be informed.

Well the reality will no doubt be that even if the OP fully discloses the circumstances, her child will have a higher opinion of the parent who wanted them so desperately and has looked after them single handedly than they will of the one who didn't want them and disappeared when they were a baby.
I know the idea of that probably grinds your gears a bit, but I'd say it's fairly obvious which parent the child is going to love and respect.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:54

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:53

Yes. Because only one of them is impregnating someone’s body without their consent.

Interesting, so rape by deception is not a thing?

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:56

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:54

Interesting, so rape by deception is not a thing?

How do you mean?

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:58

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:56

How do you mean?

In those options I posted, you said only 2 was assault? 3 & 4 was deception since the party only wanted sex to try for a child

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:58

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:58

In those options I posted, you said only 2 was assault? 3 & 4 was deception since the party only wanted sex to try for a child

Are you classing all of them as rape though? I’m struggling to follow your logic.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:59

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 14:58

Are you classing all of them as rape though? I’m struggling to follow your logic.

Well I'm not sure. I thought rape by deception was a thing? If it is, then yes, 3 & 4 would be surely? But you was said only option 2 was assault

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:01

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 14:59

Well I'm not sure. I thought rape by deception was a thing? If it is, then yes, 3 & 4 would be surely? But you was said only option 2 was assault

Rape by deception is a thing. It’s a different thing to lying about contraception though. And a man lying about contraception to deliberately i mpregnant someone without their consent is a different thing yet again, because that’s him deciding what happens to someone else’s body.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:05

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:01

Rape by deception is a thing. It’s a different thing to lying about contraception though. And a man lying about contraception to deliberately i mpregnant someone without their consent is a different thing yet again, because that’s him deciding what happens to someone else’s body.

So just to clarify, lying about contraception is not deception

  1. Woman lies about contraception to get pregnant.
  2. Man lies about contraception to get the woman pregnant.
  3. Woman wants a child but man lies about his fertility
  4. Man wants a child but woman lies about her fertility

So in those options, 1, 3 & 4 is not rape by deception?

Also option 2 is not deception since its lying about contraception which you just said is a different thing?

I generally didn't know that.

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:07

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:05

So just to clarify, lying about contraception is not deception

  1. Woman lies about contraception to get pregnant.
  2. Man lies about contraception to get the woman pregnant.
  3. Woman wants a child but man lies about his fertility
  4. Man wants a child but woman lies about her fertility

So in those options, 1, 3 & 4 is not rape by deception?

Also option 2 is not deception since its lying about contraception which you just said is a different thing?

I generally didn't know that.

No, it’s not ‘not deception’, it’s not automatically rape. They’re all deception. Only one of them results in someone’s body getting pregnant without their consent, which is why it’s different to the others.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:08

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:07

No, it’s not ‘not deception’, it’s not automatically rape. They’re all deception. Only one of them results in someone’s body getting pregnant without their consent, which is why it’s different to the others.

No, it’s not ‘not deception’, it’s not automatically rape. They’re all deception.

Now I'm more confused 😂

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:10

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:08

No, it’s not ‘not deception’, it’s not automatically rape. They’re all deception.

Now I'm more confused 😂

Why?

They’re all deception. But deception doesn’t mean rape.

Except in the case of deliberately impregnating someone else’s body.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:11

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:10

Why?

They’re all deception. But deception doesn’t mean rape.

Except in the case of deliberately impregnating someone else’s body.

Ok, so rape by deception is only a thing when it can cause a woman to get pregnant? Is that right?

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:12

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:11

Ok, so rape by deception is only a thing when it can cause a woman to get pregnant? Is that right?

No. But it’s the only one out of the four options you came up with that does.

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:14

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:12

No. But it’s the only one out of the four options you came up with that does.

Ok

Personally I think a man lying about not having the snip while having sex with a woman who would only consent if its for a child should also be rape by deception. But oh well

Pumperthepumper · 03/01/2023 15:17

Taddyy · 03/01/2023 15:14

Ok

Personally I think a man lying about not having the snip while having sex with a woman who would only consent if its for a child should also be rape by deception. But oh well

There’s nothing stopping you campaigning to change the law around it though.

A famous case of rape by deception was the undercover police scandal, where they pretended to be activists and had children with the women they were reporting on.

ArthurScargillsgingerpube · 03/01/2023 15:57

Why did you break up ? My money is on him thinking he used a condom, so you must have cheated.

Unless you did a paternity test.

SixCharactersinSearchofanAuthor · 03/01/2023 17:12

OPs not coming back because they are a PBP. Forever starts threads like this.