Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

[biwncs]

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

The argument works exactly the same when applied in reverse, why was OP in a relationship with a man who did not want a child when she did? The only way that you can possibly use that as an argument to blame the man is if you accept that it is acceptable and reasonable for a woman to behave deceitfully in such a situation to obtain consent for sex and that men should anticipate this and be okay with it.

He would know that no contraception is 100%. He would know if a pregnancy resulted then his partner would want the child, in fact would be 'desperate' for the child, so common sense should have told him his risk was higher with OP.
I have no more evidence he used condoms incorrectly than you do she tampered with them. But given how difficult it would be to render a condom useless without its wearer noticing, even if only after the event, the former is more likely.
As for rephrasing my final paragraph, amusing. (Particularly the easy access to sperm part. Is there a shortage?) The OP is the one who had nothing to lose and everything to gain from continuing the relationship, and has ended up with the child she wanted. So while her ethics are questionable I don't think you can say she wasn't 'sensible'.

Or, how about men taking a third option of the application of a little common sense?
If a man is adamant he doesn't want children, understands that sex can result in pregnancy (particularly where as appears to be the case here, he's not that great at using a condom properly) and knows his sexual partner is 'desperate' for a baby, so would be reluctant to terminate an unexpected pregnancy, he actually considers whether this woman is an appropriate sexual partner for him at this time?
He was under the impression that as a couple they were using both barrier and hormonal contraceptives.
He consented to sex with that information.

The OP could have decided having a child was a deal breaker and left to find a man who wanted a child.
But she didn't.
She lied and deliberately stopped contraception in a hope to become pregnant, then did the manipulative 'do you want me to abort' thing.

Based on your logic, a man should leave any relationship where he doesn't want a baby in 9 months because even consenting to sex with two forms of contraception means he must secretly want a baby and be totally ok with his partner being a manipulative liar.

The OP stayed in the relationship because he kept chopping and changing and she thought he'd want children eventually. But regardless, she had no personal incentive to leave, did she? She didn't mind that sex might result in a pregnancy, in fact she wanted it to so had nothing to lose. He was the one adamant he didn't want a baby so you'd think he'd have 'chosen more wisely', like women always seem to be told to.
Its not about blame, its about pragmatism. Unfortunately for men, their reproductive choices start and end with their decision to have sex. Knowing that, if they don't want children they have to be extremely cautious, including in their choice of partner. Just like women have to be extremely cautious in their choice of partner for multiple other reasons.

The OP stayed in the relationship because he kept chopping and changing and she thought he'd want children eventually

Well I thought DH might like a child eventually. He also thought I'd might like a child eventually.
Thankfully most adults understand that their partner wanting something in the future does not equal wanting it now and most adults know it's fairly shitty to lie to a partner about contraception.

Does that justify her deceptive behaviour? If it doesn't then I'm not sure what your point is? It feels like you are saying men should be expecting to be deceived and if they are they should have made better choices.

Why are you making things up? Is there not enough to challenge with what I actually said?😂
Where do I mention the man secretly wanting a baby and being OK with manipulation and lies?
If you are a man who adamantly doesn't want a child, do you, or do you not, think your most appropriate, safe and sensible choice of partner is a woman desperate for a baby?
Personally, I don't. But I'm not a man, so you tell me.

No it doesn't justify deception, but the discussion had taken a tangential turn and i was responding to the somewhat over dramatic suggestion that men have only two choices, fatherhood or celibacy. The third and most obvious choice to me to minimise risk of unwanted fatherhood is for a man to avoid sleeping with a woman desperate for a baby. Accidents happen and if I were such a man I'd prefer to think that my partner would be like minded as to how to proceed.

Why are you making things up? Is there not enough to challenge with what I actually said?😂
Where do I mention the man secretly wanting a baby and being OK with manipulation and lies?
If you are a man who adamantly doesn't want a child, do you, or do you not, think your most appropriate, safe and sensible choice of partner is a woman desperate for a baby?
Personally, I don't. But I'm not a man, so you tell me.

Because it boils down to arguing a man should choose better, leave a relationship if their partners want a baby, and anticipate romantic partners are batshit manipulative women who will lie about contraception.

I wanted a baby before DH. It never crossed my mind to lie to him about contraception. I'd have been devestated if he left on the grounds 'you want a baby so I'm off in case you fuck with our contraception and lie to me'. Most women don't behave how the OP has behaved.

It's fairly common for couples to have different timelines on having children.
Most people don't lie to their partner about contraception.

Of course accidents happen (they can happen to couples where neither partner wants a baby) but that isn't really what you are saying. You are saying that men who don't want children at any given time should not sleep with women who want children even if they satisfy themselves that contraception will be used because...?

Well the only thing I can think to fill in that blank is "because the woman may well deceive them about the contraception and seek to get pregnant without their knowledge". I'm not sure that is a helpful view of women we want to be promoting to men really.

Deception is the fault of the deceiver, all else is just victim blaming.

Of course it is. And I believe that was established on the first page, indeed by the OP herself. Yet for some reason we've had page after page where people have fallen over themselves to hammer home that a woman has done something wrong. A fact I don't think anyone denied, even she herself.
What we haven't had are any pragmatic suggestions as to how men may 'protect' themselves from the highly unlikely event they will be tricked into fatherhood. My suggestion is don't continue to have a sexual relationship with a woman who tells you she is desperate for a baby.

Deception is the fault of the deceiver, all else is just victim blaming.

Spot on, @Eleganz!

Well if that's the only thing you can think of to fill in the blank, you're revealing rather a lot about your attitudes to women there.
So let me help you:
Men who desperately don't want children should avoid continuing sexual relationships with women who desperately do, as in the event of an accidental pregnancy she will want to keep the baby and that is her choice alone, so you will become a father.

Why do we need to have pragmatic suggestions for men here? Have there been lots of men asking for advice on this thread?

The reality is this "pragmatism" is really just an attempt to minimise the deception here by saying that men need to take more care and therefore if they get tricked into fatherhood it is because they have been careless rather than because a woman has behaved badly.

@5128gap your pragmatic advice does nothing but assign a part of the blame to the victimised party, even when they have done their due diligence and had been reasonably responsible. It essentially amounts to victim blaming. And I am 100% sure that you would hold a different stance if the genders were reversed.

But an accidental pregnancy can occur even when the woman doesn't want children and after that it is her choice alone whether to have the baby or not and there is nothing that a man can do about it at that point. I think most men are pretty clued up about that and understand that contraception is not 100% effective.

So why do they need special "pragmatic" advice about sleeping with women who are "desperate to have children", of course they are more likely to keep the baby I suspect but it is hardly rocket science to figure that one out. If a man is clear about the contraceptive choices he and his partner are making and the risks of pregnancy and fatherhood that all heterosexual sexual intercourse encounters hold then it shouldn't matter, unless there is something else at play.

No, you're right. The men on here don't want suggestions as to how to avoid being the victim of this highly unlikely scenario.
What they want is to take full advantage of a rare opportunity to show that a woman can be a deceitful manipulative wrong 'un, because they imagine it acts as a counter balance to the multiple examples of male bad behaviour we encounter daily.
They believe that by the use of hyperbolic language 'abuse' 'assault' 'rape' they are demonstrating that the two sexes are equally culpable in their mistreatment of each other, and abuse, assault and rape are not things men do to women.
It was established on page one, and by the OP herself that she had done wrong. Since then page after page of posts repeating that, ever more gleefully and dramatically, even resorting to pretending I and anyone else whose offered anything else to the discussion is saying that deception is OK, just in order to find an excuse say it yet again.

I definitely would hold a different stance if the ‘genders’ (biological sexes) were reversed. I think most people would, what with women being the ones who get pregnant and all.

@5128gap I'm willing to bet it was mostly female posters calling it assault/abuse. I was one of them.

And therein lies the hypocrisy.

Only if you think men can get pregnant.

Theres not really a comparable situation with the genders reversed, is there?
If a woman was complaining her partner, who she knew desperately didn't want children, had had a secret vasectomy, I would be critical of his deceit (as I am of the OPs) but would also point out that it was not the most sensible and appropriate relationship for her, given she desperately wanted children, and that she could have indeed made a better choice.

You're right, it's not comparable because women have the option to abort, therefore they can't ultimately be trapped into parenthood. Which makes it worse when the victim of the deceit is a man who has no such escape button.

Men/'female posters' who support the same agenda. My point still stands.

I think that your line of argument is just playing into the hands of the misogynists not anything else. You might not be intending to but you are dog whistling about the potential deceptive nature of women.