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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

552 replies

biwncs · 28/12/2022 14:19

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

OP posts:
Bobsyouruncleand · 28/12/2022 23:30

She only told him about the deception halfway through her pregnancy. He hadn’t asked to terminate because he didn’t know what she had done at that point. By the time she told him, she would have been around the cut-off date for an abortion and even if it could have been done, he would have known how developed it would have been at that point. Maybe this is a coincidence but doubtful.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:30

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:28

@Pumperthepumper and that makes it ok? just because his body is not affected must mean that he's not victimized? how about his mental health?

Did I say it was ok? You need to spend a bit more time reading. I said it’s not the same, because it isn’t.

daretodenim · 28/12/2022 23:30

No. Him removing the condom would be him deliberately impregnating someone else’s body. That’s nothing like what the OP did, and it’s why there is no comparison between the two.

She deliberately stole his sperm then. To impregnate herself and make him a father against his will.

Yes, she carries the baby. But as soon as conception takes place, he cannot change the situation. She took his control of his future away, by using his body.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:31

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:29

Is mental and emotional abuse somehow more acceptable than physical abuse because it doesn't do anything to your actual body? cause that's one implication of your logic

No: it’s that a man impregnating a woman without her consent is not the same as a women not telling her partner she’s not on the pill. It’s really very basic biology.

themanwho · 28/12/2022 23:32

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 21:29

Agreed. But everyone is entitled to give informed consent and to be able to decide for themselves what level of risk is acceptable to them. This man was deceived about the risk involved in the sex, so he was no given the opportunity to opt out. That isn't and never will be right.

Had he known there was no pill being used, he might very well have decided on abstinence. The issue at hand is that he wasn't given that choice. We was misled about how risky the sex was and wasn't allowed the opportunity to put other types of protection in place.

reverse the genders and imagine a man lies to a woman about having had a vasectomy. The woman would be happy to be on the pill if needed (and definitely would if she knew he was fertile) but believes him and assesses the risk of the vasectomy failing as very small and acceptable to her. She choses not to use any other contraception.

Would you say that she's to blame for the resulting pregnancy because she should have known that no sex is ever safe, that even with vasectomies there is a margin of error and that no one is entitled to 100% safe sex? She assessed the risk at less than 1% based on the lie, when in fact the risk was much much higher.

It's the very same concept. Informed consent.

I'm amazed how many people simply can't grasp it

Exactly this.

What the woman has done here is awful, deceitful and selfish. It’s despicable.

You lied to him to get pregnant, and now you expect him to pay for your life with your child.

It’s so wrong and so unfair for both the father and the child.

You should be ashamed of yourself

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:32

daretodenim · 28/12/2022 23:30

No. Him removing the condom would be him deliberately impregnating someone else’s body. That’s nothing like what the OP did, and it’s why there is no comparison between the two.

She deliberately stole his sperm then. To impregnate herself and make him a father against his will.

Yes, she carries the baby. But as soon as conception takes place, he cannot change the situation. She took his control of his future away, by using his body.

But he consented to that sperm potentially making a baby. He knew that when they had sex.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:33

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:30

Did I say it was ok? You need to spend a bit more time reading. I said it’s not the same, because it isn’t.

You're arguing until blue in the face that he's at least partially to blame for the situation and excusing OP left and right. So yeah, that's what you are implying, that forcing men into fatherhood is somehow more acceptable than forcing women into motherhood. Flashnews, it's most definitely not. They are both 100% unacceptable

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:34

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:32

But he consented to that sperm potentially making a baby. He knew that when they had sex.

No he didn’t consent to sex with only condoms as contraception.

You’re just being contrary now and going down the road of if you don’t want a baby, keep it in your trousers/keep your kegs closed road which is fucking offensive.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:34

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:33

You're arguing until blue in the face that he's at least partially to blame for the situation and excusing OP left and right. So yeah, that's what you are implying, that forcing men into fatherhood is somehow more acceptable than forcing women into motherhood. Flashnews, it's most definitely not. They are both 100% unacceptable

Again; I’m saying they’re not the same.

Consenting to sex knowing it might result in fatherhood is not the same as deliberately impregnating someone else. And you can try to read some greater injustice into that, but that’s the bottom line.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:35

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:34

No he didn’t consent to sex with only condoms as contraception.

You’re just being contrary now and going down the road of if you don’t want a baby, keep it in your trousers/keep your kegs closed road which is fucking offensive.

It’s true though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy when he had sex. Abstinence is the only way to 100% guarantee no baby.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:37

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:35

It’s true though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy when he had sex. Abstinence is the only way to 100% guarantee no baby.

So if OP was here complaining that her partner refuses to sleep with her out of fear of getting her pregnant you would tell her that he's totally entitled to that choice and she must be accepting and understanding and live in abstinence too. Right? Right?

Bobsyouruncleand · 28/12/2022 23:38

I think the OP is either a troll and has made all this shit up (in which case, she’s still a nut job) or she’s having a laugh at everyone commenting. We should have all been smarter and left her to decide her own fate.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:39

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:37

So if OP was here complaining that her partner refuses to sleep with her out of fear of getting her pregnant you would tell her that he's totally entitled to that choice and she must be accepting and understanding and live in abstinence too. Right? Right?

Yes. Or I’d advise her to get a partner less scared of his responsibilities if he did make a baby.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:40

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:35

It’s true though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy when he had sex. Abstinence is the only way to 100% guarantee no baby.

actually abstinence is not foolproof either since men could be raped and forced to ejaculate and have their sperm stolen.

perhaps they should all don abstinence belts to ensure there is absolutely 0% chance of them being trapped into fatherhood.

these women can never be trusted

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:40

Bobsyouruncleand · 28/12/2022 23:38

I think the OP is either a troll and has made all this shit up (in which case, she’s still a nut job) or she’s having a laugh at everyone commenting. We should have all been smarter and left her to decide her own fate.

This topic has been done a lot on mumsnet, it’s not new.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:40

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:34

Again; I’m saying they’re not the same.

Consenting to sex knowing it might result in fatherhood is not the same as deliberately impregnating someone else. And you can try to read some greater injustice into that, but that’s the bottom line.

That’s not what happened.
OP deliberately impregnated herself by lying to her partner that she was on the BC pill, making the risk of pregnancy infinitesimal. This is no different from a man impregnating his partner by lying to her that he has had a vasectomy, making the risk of pregnancy infinitesimal.

The only difference is who carries the baby and who has the safety net of termination. The woman carries the baby but this is more than balanced out by having the power to terminate a pregnancy- a power the man does not have.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:41

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:40

actually abstinence is not foolproof either since men could be raped and forced to ejaculate and have their sperm stolen.

perhaps they should all don abstinence belts to ensure there is absolutely 0% chance of them being trapped into fatherhood.

these women can never be trusted

That’s also not the same as consenting to sex.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:41

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:39

Yes. Or I’d advise her to get a partner less scared of his responsibilities if he did make a baby.

SHE made the baby. He was tricked into donating sperm.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:42

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:40

That’s not what happened.
OP deliberately impregnated herself by lying to her partner that she was on the BC pill, making the risk of pregnancy infinitesimal. This is no different from a man impregnating his partner by lying to her that he has had a vasectomy, making the risk of pregnancy infinitesimal.

The only difference is who carries the baby and who has the safety net of termination. The woman carries the baby but this is more than balanced out by having the power to terminate a pregnancy- a power the man does not have.

It is different. You explained yourself why it’s different. The woman has the choice of abortion because it happens to her body. It’s biology, not some kindness extended only to women because they won the coin toss.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:43

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:41

SHE made the baby. He was tricked into donating sperm.

No. He consented to sex.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:43

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:41

That’s also not the same as consenting to sex.

what if my partner only consents to mutual masturbation or blowjobs but i decide to use the resulting sperm to impregnante myself in secret?

he consented to the sex, so it's fair game i guess. he knew that every ejaculation is just a baby waiting to happen

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:44

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:35

It’s true though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy when he had sex. Abstinence is the only way to 100% guarantee no baby.

But he didn’t consent to sex with a 20% chance of pregnancy through IRL condom use…he had consented to sex with a 0.02% chance of pregnancy. If he’d known the actual risk was a 1000x higher, he might not have consented to the sex.

Moser85 · 28/12/2022 23:44

Year2023 · 28/12/2022 23:11

No matter the circumstances there is a child here now. How can anyone live with themselves knowing they have abandoned their own flesh and blood? That is what I can't grasp. Surely that must cause life long issues (if they have a heart).

I agree with this. Sounds like he was in the babies life for at least 6 months and then decided he wanted nothing to do with the baby. How could he not have some kind of bond or relationship with the baby?

My dad walked out on his first child and it did cause life long issues, they only had sporadic contact and I only found out as an adult.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:44

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:43

No. He consented to sex.

No. He didn’t consent to sex without the BC pill being used. Consent by deception is a type of nonconsensual sex.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:44

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:43

what if my partner only consents to mutual masturbation or blowjobs but i decide to use the resulting sperm to impregnante myself in secret?

he consented to the sex, so it's fair game i guess. he knew that every ejaculation is just a baby waiting to happen

No, that’s not consenting to penis-in-vagina sex.

You seem to struggle with this idea of ‘consent’, why do you keep making up these scenarios that have no relevance to the thread?