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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

552 replies

biwncs · 28/12/2022 14:19

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:45

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:44

But he didn’t consent to sex with a 20% chance of pregnancy through IRL condom use…he had consented to sex with a 0.02% chance of pregnancy. If he’d known the actual risk was a 1000x higher, he might not have consented to the sex.

But he knew there was a risk. He knew the chances were not zero.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:46

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:44

No, that’s not consenting to penis-in-vagina sex.

You seem to struggle with this idea of ‘consent’, why do you keep making up these scenarios that have no relevance to the thread?

what if he consents to penis in vagina sex on the agreement that he will pull out - am i allowed to physically prevent him from withdrawing in time?

hey, he consented to penetration. again, fair game

yes i can go all night

your logic is broken and i'll keep proving it

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:48

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:46

what if he consents to penis in vagina sex on the agreement that he will pull out - am i allowed to physically prevent him from withdrawing in time?

hey, he consented to penetration. again, fair game

yes i can go all night

your logic is broken and i'll keep proving it

The withdrawal method is very unreliable so I’d say that counts as consensual. But I’m a bit nervous if you getting off on these weird fantasies you keep dreaming up.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:48

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:45

But he knew there was a risk. He knew the chances were not zero.

wow you really are a broken record of missing the point spectacularly lol

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:49

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:48

The withdrawal method is very unreliable so I’d say that counts as consensual. But I’m a bit nervous if you getting off on these weird fantasies you keep dreaming up.

and i'd say that counts as rape

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:49

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:48

wow you really are a broken record of missing the point spectacularly lol

I do feel like a broken record. A lot of people don’t seem to understand the difference between making a baby and carrying a baby, or that sex always carries a risk of making a baby.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:50

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:49

and i'd say that counts as rape

Ok. It only exists in your head though.

LOLsloth · 28/12/2022 23:51

In some countries it is legally considered rape if a man takes off the condom without his partner’s knowledge. So by that definition what you did was rape, OP. You forced him to have a sexual act he didn’t consent to and you knew he didn’t want. You raped him.

You raped him once, in that context I fail to see what would stop you from raping him financially as well.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:52

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:50

Ok. It only exists in your head though.

consent can be withdrawn at any time during sex. if one of the partners makes it clear they want to stop and the other physically prevents them from moving away, consent no longer exists. ergo rape.

clear as day

your flawed logic supports rape

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:52

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:52

consent can be withdrawn at any time during sex. if one of the partners makes it clear they want to stop and the other physically prevents them from moving away, consent no longer exists. ergo rape.

clear as day

your flawed logic supports rape

You invented this scenario though. It’s not real, and it’s not relevant to the thread.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:52

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:45

But he knew there was a risk. He knew the chances were not zero.

I see that maths and risk assessment is not your strong suit. So, you’re swimming at a beach, would you go in the water if there had been 1 shark attack that year? Now, what if there had been a 1,000 shark attacks (3 every day)?

This is the difference. The level of risk absolutely affects consent.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:53

@LOLsloth prepared to be deleted for using the R word as it hurts OPs fragile feelings. Apparently it's not allowed to call things for what they are

LOLsloth · 28/12/2022 23:53

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:50

Ok. It only exists in your head though.

I think this is pretty clear: nottssvss.org.uk/consent-coalition/campaigns/removing-a-condom/

What she did was rape.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:53

LOLsloth · 28/12/2022 23:51

In some countries it is legally considered rape if a man takes off the condom without his partner’s knowledge. So by that definition what you did was rape, OP. You forced him to have a sexual act he didn’t consent to and you knew he didn’t want. You raped him.

You raped him once, in that context I fail to see what would stop you from raping him financially as well.

It’s because there’s a difference between impregnating someone else’s body without their consent, and using a consensual act to impregnate your own body. That’s why it’s different.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:54

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:52

You invented this scenario though. It’s not real, and it’s not relevant to the thread.

you called this scenario consensual though. you've just legitimised rape. it doesn't matter that it's made up, not one bit

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:55

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:52

I see that maths and risk assessment is not your strong suit. So, you’re swimming at a beach, would you go in the water if there had been 1 shark attack that year? Now, what if there had been a 1,000 shark attacks (3 every day)?

This is the difference. The level of risk absolutely affects consent.

It doesn’t though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy, and the increased risk is negligible anyway - because the OP could have been ill or on antibiotics or had forgotten to take the pill or any number of reasons the pill could be less effective. Or the condom could have been out of date, or opened badly or put on inside out and so on.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:56

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:55

It doesn’t though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy, and the increased risk is negligible anyway - because the OP could have been ill or on antibiotics or had forgotten to take the pill or any number of reasons the pill could be less effective. Or the condom could have been out of date, or opened badly or put on inside out and so on.

now you're just grasping at straws. just accept that you are wrong

LOLsloth · 28/12/2022 23:57

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:53

It’s because there’s a difference between impregnating someone else’s body without their consent, and using a consensual act to impregnate your own body. That’s why it’s different.

No, Pumper, that is not true. There is no difference. The laws don’t factor in whether or not a pregnancy occurred, it is about coercing or forcing someone into having a sexual act they did not consent to or want.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:57

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 23:54

you called this scenario consensual though. you've just legitimised rape. it doesn't matter that it's made up, not one bit

I really don’t like being part of these little fantasies of yours. The withdrawal method could easily result in a pregnancy.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:58

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:53

It’s because there’s a difference between impregnating someone else’s body without their consent, and using a consensual act to impregnate your own body. That’s why it’s different.

? But wait a second, you’ve changed the scenarios and your logic to suit.

The flip side isn’t a man impregnating his partner without her consent, because by your logic, sex always carries the risk of pregnancy. So, in both cases, the man or woman is using a consensual act to create a pregnancy.

You cannot say that he’s impregnating her without her consent and then pretend that the flip side the man has consented to impregnating his partner…when your position is that consenting to sex is de fact also consenting to pregnancy.

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:59

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:55

It doesn’t though. He knew there was a risk of pregnancy, and the increased risk is negligible anyway - because the OP could have been ill or on antibiotics or had forgotten to take the pill or any number of reasons the pill could be less effective. Or the condom could have been out of date, or opened badly or put on inside out and so on.

1000x increase isn’t ‘negligible’!

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 23:59

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:58

? But wait a second, you’ve changed the scenarios and your logic to suit.

The flip side isn’t a man impregnating his partner without her consent, because by your logic, sex always carries the risk of pregnancy. So, in both cases, the man or woman is using a consensual act to create a pregnancy.

You cannot say that he’s impregnating her without her consent and then pretend that the flip side the man has consented to impregnating his partner…when your position is that consenting to sex is de fact also consenting to pregnancy.

Sorry, I read that wrong.

Just change what I wrote to ‘potentially’ impregnating someone else’s body.

Onnabugeisha · 29/12/2022 00:00

Under English law, this type of nonconsensual sex isn’t considered to be rape (yet). Give it time. Marital rape wasn’t considered rape for millennia….

Pumperthepumper · 29/12/2022 00:01

Onnabugeisha · 28/12/2022 23:59

1000x increase isn’t ‘negligible’!

How do you mean? My point is sex could result in a pregnancy regardless of the potential risk involved. You’d have to prove he thought he was 100% protected from making a baby, and you couldn’t.

LOLsloth · 29/12/2022 00:04

Pumperthepumper · 29/12/2022 00:01

How do you mean? My point is sex could result in a pregnancy regardless of the potential risk involved. You’d have to prove he thought he was 100% protected from making a baby, and you couldn’t.

Yet, Pumper, UK law doesn’t see it your way. For example, it is considered rape if a man removes a condom without telling his partner (even though, according to your deluded logic, the woman should have known that there was SOME risk of pregnancy even if he had kept the condom on).

Did you even read this? nottssvss.org.uk/consent-coalition/campaigns/removing-a-condom/

The law does not take into account risk of impregnating. The law is about consent.

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