Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

[biwncs]

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

@OldFan Personally when I've been stealthed I've usually been able to tell because it feels different, though

Apologies but what do you mean by this?

"Or are you able to come up with a better proxy for this couple's specific risk?"

Well it's not zero and never could have been zero unless she had had a hysterectomy. I'm not the one arguing that she has a responsibility to provide him with perfectly sterile intercourse. My position is that all intercourse between a man and a woman comes with the possibility of pregnancy, and therefore he is morally obligated for any child conceived. If a man or woman wants to have no risk of being responsible for a child, he or she needs to abstain from sex altogether. Of course, there is always abortion but women who become pregnant may find they do not wish to have an abortion and I do not believe it is the responsibility of a woman to abort a child for a man's sake.

@aloris so if you don't want to be trapped into a pregnancy, you must never have sex and never trust anyone, including your partner of 2 years. Gotcha.

if that's the case, and OP knew they weren't using condoms reliably but still withheld the pill information from him, that only makes her more cunning and deceptive....

@LaLuz7 Stealthing is when the woman doesn't know the bloke isn't wearing one.

Well…yes. Nobody is entitled to risk-free sex just because they don’t want a kid.

Personally when I've been stealthed I've usually been able to tell because it feels different, though

Apologies but what do you mean by this?

@Year2023 'Stealthing' is when a bloke says he's going to wear a condom but then sneakily doesn't wear one (this is rape legally in several countries now, including the UK.)

so if you don't want to be trapped into a pregnancy, you must never have sex and never trust anyone, including your partner of 2 years. Gotcha.

@LaLuz7 Or you could agree to there being an element of risk of pregnancy, preferably in a relationship where it doesn't matter if a baby is conceived or not (preferably marriage.)

Agreed. But everyone is entitled to give informed consent and to be able to decide for themselves what level of risk is acceptable to them. This man was deceived about the risk involved in the sex, so he was no given the opportunity to opt out. That isn't and never will be right.

Had he known there was no pill being used, he might very well have decided on abstinence. The issue at hand is that he wasn't given that choice. We was misled about how risky the sex was and wasn't allowed the opportunity to put other types of protection in place.

reverse the genders and imagine a man lies to a woman about having had a vasectomy. The woman would be happy to be on the pill if needed (and definitely would if she knew he was fertile) but believes him and assesses the risk of the vasectomy failing as very small and acceptable to her. She choses not to use any other contraception.

Would you say that she's to blame for the resulting pregnancy because she should have known that no sex is ever safe, that even with vasectomies there is a margin of error and that no one is entitled to 100% safe sex? She assessed the risk at less than 1% based on the lie, when in fact the risk was much much higher.

It's the very same concept. Informed consent.

I'm amazed how many people simply can't grasp it

No, it’s not the same concept because (and I’ve had to explain this so many times on this thread) that’s a man deciding what happens to a women’s body ie he is choosing to put a baby there against her will. It’s not the same thing at all, it never has been and it never will be.

And he knew there was a risk every time he had sex. So he would never be able to argue that he only had sex based on a certain level of risk, because the risk is there regardless.

I agree that there is always an element of risk. But I don't agree that it was ok for OP to mislead the man about the level of risk involved (and the significant change in that level of risk) and to deny him the opportunity to reassess if that was acceptable fto him or if he wanted to abstain instead.

I wasn't talking to you, love =)

You quoted me, love.

Once again, they were using condoms which are an accepted form of birth control. So, no stealthing here.

He shouldn’t have sex without being fully informed.

unless she poked holes. if she was desperate enough to speed thing along by forgoing the pill, she's obviously capable of tampering with the condoms too.

"unless she poked holes. if she was desperate enough to speed thing along by forgoing the pill, she's obviously capable of tampering with the condoms too."

This is speculation beyond the scope of the thread.

Once again, they were using condoms which are an accepted form of birth control.

@aloris As far as we know.

unless she poked holes

Or he sneakily didn't bother actually putting one on.

@LaLuz7 I meant that the whole setup was not ideal.

But either way, legally he is liable to pay maintenance.

Don’t be daft it’s not rhe same thing, she stopped taking rhe pill to help her fall pregnant. She specifically tells us this. He thought he was having pregnancy proof sex, which with the pill and condoms he pretty much was, she decided to ttc without his consent. Lied to him and messed up their contraception so she could fall pregnant.

now they’ve a baby he doesn’t want and she can’t afford. They were always going to split up , there is no way to get over this level of betrayal . They’d only been together two years.

it’s a terrible situation, particularly for this child and for this man who was betrayed in this manner and with something so serious it has life long consequences for all of them.

Well they have a 1 in 5000 chance each year. It could have happened for them in year 1.

Plenty of people double up on contraception so there's probably plenty who do get pregnant each year.

1 in 5000 is not practically zero. It's high enough that you probably know someone it happened to. I know people with rare diseases such as PKU which has an occurance of 1 in 10,000 to 15,000, or battens disease which is 1 in 12,500 and other things like that, they are rare but you probably know plenty of people who are the 1 in 5000, or 1 in 20000 etc.

@Ramsbottom i think it wasn't me you meant to quote

Okay - what you did was sneaky, however he had the option to suggest termination and never took it.
IMO doesent matter what circumstances were when you fell pregnant, you asked him his opinion and he gave it. He wanted to keep DC, same as you.
just because you hve now split and he doesent want to pay- tough shit. Sounds like you hve dodged a bullet and you should not feel one iota of guilt- chase him for the cash.

@Spookysparkles you think it was OP who dodged a bullet? really? wow, just wow...

@Moser85 so? the man consented to a risk of 1 in 5000. Instead, OP conned him into taking on a risk of 1 in 50 or more.
That's 100x more than what he willingly accepted.
He did not consent to a 2% risk.

If you undertook an elective surgery and were told beforehand there is a 1 in 5000 chance of serious complications, but you later found out that the risk was actually 1 in 50 and you were purposefully lied to, how would you feel? if you suffered life long consequences from that surgery would you seriously not go after the doctor who misrepresented the risks to you?

INFORMED CONSENT for fucks sake

@LaLuz7 yes I do.
op fell pregnant regardless of the circumstances.it has been acknowledged she is wrong for coming off the pill without discussion.
She asked him what he wanted to do re. Pregnancy - consulting him. He made intentions clear.
now they have split - funds have been withdrawn from a CHILD he said he wanted to father. So yes - IMO that is absolutely a bullet dodged.

Legally, you can require he pay child maintenance. However, I would only do so if you genuinely needed the money because it would be morally wrong as you’ve essentially used him as a disposable sperm donor.

You tricked him into trying to conceive and tricked him into saying “whatever you want” in terms of the termination. It was only after you had him completely trapped, that you confessed to your deception.