DH asked me to consider an open marriage

[Pumpkinspicedmum]

Me and DH have been together since we were 16 and are now 30 with a dd (4) and a ds (16mo)

Since my first pregnancy, I have been struggling with a very low libido and must admit to neglecting DH in that area. The other night DH asked if we could talk and said he wasn't happy in such a low sex marriage (we've dtd 5 times since the birth of our daughter 4 years ago) and really needs sex. He said he has been getting increasingly frustrated and snappy and feels lost in our marriage. He said that he does love me but feels that our relationship is in trouble.

I was honest and told him that it's not him but that I just have zero libido. He suggested counselling but I really don't like the idea of discussing our sex life with a stranger. If I'm honest, I got a bit defensive and went to bed in a huff which I know was wrong.

Fast forward to this evening and DH has asked me if I would consider an open marriage so that he can get his needs met, taking the pressure off of me. He said he loves me and wants our family to stay together but that a compromise needs to be made and its up to me whether we go for sex therapy or I carry on as I am and we have an open marriage.

To be honest, I dont really want to do either and feel a bit annoyed at DH for ruining the status quo which deep down I know is unreasonable and he isn't wrong for wanting sex with his own wife.

Any words of wisdom whilst I try to navigate this situation would be greatly appreciated x

Do you 'cure' pregnancy? Do you 'cure' menstruation? Do you 'cure' menopause?

An ebb in sexual appetite when nurturing young children is a normal physiological process observed in the vast majority of mammals. It is not an illness. And yes if that causes problems there are steps one can take, but that doesn't mean the OP is broken or ill. She is not a sex puppet that has gone defective and needs to trot off to the factory for rewiring. She's a human being experiencing a normal physiological process.

It's funny how one's perception shapes what one sees. In the type of posts you describe, I see a lot more 'get back to work, get your bed back, get your body back, get your life back, get your sex life back' pushiness - when often someone is happy with the parenting choices they've made e.g. breastfeeding/co-sleeping and are just looking for a bit of support because it is intensive and hard. I lost count of all the people telling me I should pump/mixed feed my first DD and 'go for a night out', 'get your life back' - when she was absolutely tiny, not 14 months! - when literally all I wanted was to be with her.

I feel like there's constant pressure on mums to demonstrate that motherhood has changed them not one iota, that they have slotted the baby into their existing life with no accommodation, that they have 'got themselves back' - as if being a mum has no business being any part of 'themselves' beyond the odd cute photo of the baby on Facebook.

I'm not saying either of our perceptions are right - it's very much like the split between women who wanted to bf and found they were constantly being obstructed and put off by HCPs, friends and family, and women who felt they were pressured and bullied on all sides to keep going when it wasn't working for them or their baby. I think the one thing all mothers experience in common is relentless bloody pressure from all quarters, be it 'kick that post-partum body into touch' or 'cherish every minute with your baby, this time is so precious', 'breast milk is the best possible start in life', 'share the bonding of feeding with your partner'.

I can't be bothered to go back and check, but are you the poster who likened women who are active in their sexuality to men who bite dogs? Because that's just as deranged a false equivalence. My God, the way some women view sex!

Sexlessness (and once a year is classed as sexless) for four years in a young couple in their 20s, even with small children, isn't a normal expectation. To expect a man of 30 to live like a monk indefinitely and do absolutely nothing about it isn't a normal or reasonable expectation either. If both parties were happy with it, it wouldn't be a problem. But they aren't. So it is.

To expect your supposedly loved and valued life partner to go their whole life with no intimacy, and shutting down every attempt they make to try to find a solution, is unreasonable.

After four years, if you're not both fine living in celibacy, it's time to try to find solutions together if you care about your partner. Perhaps it is a hormonal imbalance, in which case there may be a medical solution...why is that so objectionable? Perhaps there is a mental health issue, in which case therapy may help...why is that not something to try?

What's harmful and unreasonable is to shut your partner down and make no effort to try to find a solution between the two of you, and claim that trying to reconnect intimately makes the wife a "sex puppet".

If he wanted a sex puppet, he'd have been happy when OP pulled her knickers down and told him to get on with it. Instead, like a normal loving and sexual human who cares for his wife, he found it utterly soul destroying. Because it is.

Look, either sex is such a non-issue that a husband should be able to go years without it, with no end in sight (hur hur) and no effort to find a solution, without a peep. It doesn't matter at all.

Or it's such a big issue that the very suggestion he look elsewhere, if his wife truly isn't prepared to look for a solution with him, is vile and immoral and marriage-ending.

It can't be both.

That wasn't me, but she didn't do any such thing - she was saying that due to the differences between men and women at the statistical level in various aspects of life, you couldn't do a straightforward 'gender reverse' of this issue, as who does what to who lands differently depending on the genders, in the same way that people have always said "'dog bits man' is nothing, 'man bites dog' is headlines" - it's a well known aphorism. She wasn't saying that women who like sex are like dogs who like biting men or whatever the hell you've taken from it!

I don't necessarily agree or disagree that sex reverses are never valid - but I feel like a sex reverse doesn't work in this case because men don't experience pregnancy, childbirth or breastfeeding, all of which play a pretty obvious role in the very common diminishment of libido a lot of women experience while nurturing small children. So in this instance, the sex of the OP and her partner is completely relevant and integral and can't be straightforwardly reversed.

Sexlessness (and once a year is classed as sexless) by whom? Is someone who has only had sex once still a virgin by this mysterious classification system you have invoked?

What's harmful and unreasonable is to shut your partner down and make no effort to try to find a solution between the two of you, and claim that trying to reconnect intimately makes the wife a "sex puppet".

I'm not saying he is behaving like that, I'm saying all the people who are saying 'go to the GP, got to a counsellor, get your low libido fixed' are treating her like a broken sex puppet - because her low libido is not a medical problem, it's a normal biological phase. It is a personal problem between her and her husband and they should definitely work on it together to find a compromise they can both live with. If you read my posting history, you will see I have been in the same position and reached an accommodation with my partner. But this doesn't have to be predicated on the OP being at fault and in need of 'fixing', it's blaming and unpleasant. Their normal sexual fluctuations are currently misaligned. That is a problem they need to work on together.

If he wanted a sex puppet, he'd have been happy when OP pulled her knickers down and told him to get on with it. Instead, like a normal loving and sexual human who cares for his wife, he found it utterly soul destroying. Because it is.

And yet, from what OP has said, he still went ahead and did it. When he cannot possibly have been under any illusions that she wasn't totally reluctant. How soul-destroying do you suppose that would have been for the OP?

As I have said, he is not unreasonable to raise it. But also from the OP (and we have nothing else to go on so please don't provide 'I bet' in lieu of what she has reported) he hasn't brought it up before in the past four years. Then one night he states he is unhappy and suggests counselling and she is initially resistant (as many of us would be to a new, unexpected change in the status quo); the next night he says he wants an open marriage. So I'm afraid I'm not quite so fawningly in awe of the DH as so many of you on here seem to be. I think he could have raised this problem a damn sight sooner and a damn sight better.

@ReneBumsWombats

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog#:~:text=The%20phrase%20man%20bites%20dog,a%20dog%20biting%20a%20man. Just in case this helps you with your reading comprehension!

Mothers going off sex is natural. Men wanting sex is natural. What is not fair is to expect both to accept one person's "nature" but not the other's, then to still criticise that one for going without their own natural need being met for four years.

@BadNomad

Mothers going off sex is natural. Men wanting sex is natural. What is not fair is to expect both to accept one person's "nature" but not the other's, then to still criticise that one for going without their own natural need being met for four years.

Might have been an idea for him to mention it at some point in the previous 4 years then, rather then going from once a year, all fine to 'I don't like this, let's go to counselling' then leapfrogging to 'let me have sex with other people' within the space of 48 hours.

Yes, I'm familiar with the term, thank you. If you had reading comprehension, you would have noticed that my objection is that it's a ridiculous comparison, since the whole point of that term is that men biting dogs are unnatural...as you seem to think female sexual frustration is.

I don't think any such thing. Where are you getting that from?

I think loss of libido in postnatal women is common, That's not the same thing at all as saying sexual frustration in women is rare. Wow. You really might want to try reading a couple more times before commenting.

He can't win, can he? If he'd mentioned it after a year, people would be saying "it's only been a year!" People on this thread are actually saying it's too soon. He waited 4 years to see if things got better. Then when it didn't he asked about counselling. She said no. Not "I'll think about it". Not "maybe". She said no. What was he supposed to do then? Just give up and walk away?

For sex therapy purposes - as in, is this recognised as an issue - once a year is generally classed as sexless. It's close enough.

Her low libido is less the issue than her (initial) unwillingness to care about the effect it had on her husband or to do anything to help relieve the situation. That's where the choice is being made, and after four years and with no interest in making changes, breastfeeding etc isn't the issue any more. It's something else.

If you are determined to frame every effort to recognise the nature and seriousness of the problem and try to find a solution as "fixing the sex puppet", then your experience and understanding of sex and intimacy within relationships is too far off to be of any use to the discussion. Sex is not something women perform to keep men happy. If that were the case, we would all just be telling her to lie back and open her legs. We're not, because that's not how sex in a loving relationship works.

But nor is ignoring your partner's needs indefinitely until it takes a suggestion like an open marriage to show just how bad it's got.

Also this is bollocks. You said:

That has to be the weirdest analogy for marital sex between men and women that I think I've ever seen. Needless to say, I think it's a false equivalence and I actually feel sorry for anyone who relates to it.

So you thought someone was making an analogy between men biting dogs and marital sex.

You also said:

It's very depressing how many women don't see sex as something mutually enjoyable and fulfilling, but instead as something women give to keep men happy and which men should be fine to go without forever from their wives. One poster even likened it to being bitten by a dog, which is just...awful.

So you did think they were ‘likening sex to being bitten by a dog’. You didn’t understand what she was saying. You made this very clear in your remarks. I daresay you had never come across the phrase, misunderstood and are now embarrassed and backtracking. But hey ho.

I have definitely heard the phrase, trust me...and yes, I do think it's a horrible comparison. Partly because it implies women taking action for sex is unnatural and yes, in a sexual context I thought the decision to conjure up images of dogs and biting was quite intentional. Perhaps that poster wasn't as poetic as I gave them credit for, but like your sex puppet, it certainly isn't a flattering image for intimacy.

Citation 'for sex therapy purposes' at all?

I have said repeatedly that it is indeed an issue because they have a mismatch and that needs to be resolved. I think realistically she is not going to be able to talk her libido into gear, nor should she be expected to medicate herself when her body is actually behaving normally. I think the two of them should work it out, and there will need to be compromise. She may need to try and push herself out of her comfort zone and see where that takes them; he may need to change how he approaches sex - both the emotional and the physical side. They've been together a long time and are probably each others' only (or very nearly only) sexual partners - they may be in a rut that no longer works for her, she may need more drawing out etc. It will be complicated and gradual. It will involve both of them changing and experimenting, not just the OP switching her sex drive back on like a light switch. I'm sure if she could do that then she would have.

I think shutting him down when he brought up counselling was a big mistake - but one any of us might make after 4 years of things seeming to be fine and suddenly there's a big problem. I think his next move should have been to attempt to reopen that conversation, rather than jump straight to 'I want your permission to have sex with other people' a day later. Or, you know, to abandon the counselling idea for a bit and ask ask her what SHE thinks he could do that might help her feel more sexual, if she doesn't think counselling is the answer. Actually discuss it like two adults with a problem, rather than treat her like the problem.

And lie back and open her legs is exactly what a lot of posters are recommending. "Use it or lose it, the more you have the more you want" etc. None of which is strictly speaking untrue, I know from experience. But this is the thing, it has to be understood she has something she will have to overcome here, that will not be easy to do - pushing through a lack of desire is incredibly difficult. Which doesn't mean it doesn't need doing, considering the alternatives, but a bit of sodding empathy would go a long way from some posters on here.

Sure sure.

Also having baby 2 will have 'reset' the problem, so it's not a case of it's been 4 years, she should be over it by now'. It's been 14 months (biologically speaking).

Good, solid answer!

Regarding the definition of a sexless marriage, here's one.

There are multiple definitions of a sexless marriage. One is literal: the couple has not had any sex at all for a long period of time. Another widely used measure for a sexless marriage is having sex fewer than 10 times a year.

As much as I do enjoy a pointless and clearly personal derail, especially when it brings up such witty gems as "sure sure", I can't help but feel we're about to lose our audience here. May I request that if you want to keep talking about dogs, biting, your personal beliefs about my vocabulary and whether once a year is red hot, you take it into PM? You have my full permission.

As they say 'it ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it.'

He could have mentioned it after 6 months in a way that was humane, supportive and mutualistic. After 6 weeks even. Say something like "wow, we've just had a baby, our whole life has changed massively. I want you to know I know there are a lot of demands on us both right now, but I really want to keep sight of our relationship too in all of this, I love you, and sex for me has always been an important expression of that - let's try to think about ways we can keep up physical closeness and emotional intimacy so when the time is right we can resume" or whatever. Or "I can see you're very caught up with the baby's needs at this moment, understandably. Please let me know how I can help and support you so that you still have some capacity for yourself and our relationship". It's not rocket science.

Or he could have done what he did and sat on it for 4 years, and then opened the conversation in a realistic, patient way, recognising that what had been an incereasingly burning issue for him for 4 years wasn't actually a problem she'd registered. Not jumped straight from nothing to 'you need therapy' to 'open marriage' within 48 hours.

I know what you thought because I can see what you wrote. You can attempt to rewrite it all you wish, but everyone can see it. So I'm afraid 'sure sure' is all one can really say!

And yes let's stop shall we, your wilful misinterpretation (well I'll charitably assume it's wilful) makes it all rather pointless...

I'm absolutely fine with everyone being able to see it because it's perfectly consistent throughout. Like your insistence that female sexuality is sex puppetry.

I'm fine with you hurling more insults and nonsense claims, but please do it in PM.

Very keen to have the last word aren't you... if you can indicate anywhere at all where I've insisted that female sexuality is sex puppetry, please quote me. Otherwise do shut up lying.

You know how my posts are all on show to demonstrate my consistency in how I viewed the "dog bites man" stuff? Yours are on show with your references to "sex puppet".

Go on, show us all how above having the last word you are...

Funny how women's lack of libido isn't seen as a big deal by doctors, but it actually is. It's often a symptom of something like depression or you might simply be asexual and just not really very interested in sex as part of a relationship. Do you love him? Do you feel connected emotionally?
Are you emotionally prepared for your husband coming in late or not at all smelling of another woman? If the sex really isn't of interest to you and I admit, 5 times in 4 years is a very low number, tand you are confident he will stay with you and the babies, then maybe an open marriage is the way to go. It is going to require an awful lot of trust though. In some way I'd almost rather he was having a relationship with a work friend than a prostitute though. Ask the doc to check your testosterone levels. We all need a little of it and loss can take a lot of energy and pep away from us. So get blood tests done - insist if need be - try therapy (there's nothing you can say to a therapist that they haven't heard before) and have a real think about whether you are in a marriage or a flat-mate situation. Oh and btw, insist on at least one day a week where you get away all to yourself. No babies. No cooking. No house. Have a spa day or go to the cinema with pals. It could be you are low in iron or just plain exhausted.

Just because I used the words sex puppet doesn't mean I said or implied 'female sexuality is sex puppetry'. As I said, your comprehension skills are really, really dire. Quote where I said what you said I said, or admit I didn't say it. Or go away.

Me, I'm not above anything! 😉