Page 7 | Can we just be honest and say many women are trapped

workiskillingme · 2022-11-08T18:03:38+00:00

In unhappy relationships /marriages for years due to housing /income I read so many threads on here advising people to leave their marriage if they are unhappy and live the life they deserve but in reality A) women are often part time lower earners and wouldn't be able to afford to rent a property by themselves B) couldn't afford to buy their husband /partner out C) even if they sold their property and had equity would struggle massively to get a mortgage on one income D) their other half/husband may more than likely refuse to leave the family home and continue to pay the mortgage so the wife and kids can remain there Can we please just talk about this very real scenario and how women are meant to try and make it work?

RosettaStormer · 10/11/2022 17:41

aloris · 10/11/2022 17:25

"I think there are differences, possibly for biological reasons, between the sacrifices mothers and fathers are prepared to make, ime as a rule men won't put their DC consistently above their own needs for a sustained period of time. Mothers usually do."

I've noticed this, although I don't think it's universal for men. I do think there is also an argument to be made that, for many men who invest a lot of their effort into their careers, they see it as something they are doing partly for their kids: to give their kids financial security and a nice home etc. But sacrifices that a man is making for his career, even if he is in a career that is difficult for him or that he dislikes, also come with significant benefits that accrue directly to that man: his career progression, his pension, etc. When a woman makes sacrifices of her career for the benefit of her children, then if the marriage breaks up, the benefit she gets is her good relationship with her children (but not always; some mums sacrifice a lot for their kids and yet still have a bad relationship with one or more of their kids). It's great if she has a good relationship with her kids, but that's not the crux of why she sacrificed (usually she did it because it was necessary for their wellbeing, not just because she wanted them to like her), nor does it put food on the table and a roof over her head. It's a valuable benefit in a spiritual sense, but doesn't meet her needs in any practical sense.

It's also not always true that women put the children's needs above her own, but I think there is much more societal pressure for women to do so, and it seems to me mostly when the kids are not living with their mother, there's usually mental illness or addiction or something like that in the mix.

But in the main, I do agree with you. And I think one problem with structuring society so that women have to self-protect from men's tendency to do this, is that it puts the woman in a dilemma between her child's survival and her own. If your child is sick, but you need to go to work, do you take your child to the doctor or do you go to work? If you might get fired if you don't go to work, then you are highly motivated to just look the other way on your child's illness, and that is a risk for your child.

Well said. My son has had a baby this year with his partner. He is knocking his pan out to provide for them. She hasn’t had a proper job and doesn’t get maternity pay. She doesn’t cook or clean because she ‘hasn’t got time’. So he comes back and cleans and cooks. She has drawn a circle around herself and the baby and frequently belittles him. It isn’t always the woman who is disadvantaged.

ImJustMadAboutSaffron · 10/11/2022 17:50

TheYearOfSmallThings · 08/11/2022 18:16

Of course this is the reality. Another related reality is that many women use marriage to achieve financial security in the first place. This will continue to be the case as long as men earn more.

But you never do achieve financial security unless it's all by yourself.

IneedanewTV · 10/11/2022 18:45

GrrrrrreeeNotgreatactually · 08/11/2022 20:43

It would be interesting to know how much a woman needs to earn these days to live independently if they bought their house relatively recently. It makes a big difference if you bought your house in 2007 compared to it you bought it in 2017 so I don't think many women on here would be so smug about being able to pay their own mortgages if they compared it to what they would pay if they'd bought recently.

Very true re house prices and mortgages.

HappinesDependsOnYou · 10/11/2022 19:48

100% because we were a partnership I dropped my income which allowed me to change direction career wise and now I'm finally in a career I love but that will take a few years to grow earning potential he screwed me over. We have a nice house, in a great area on mortgage, car each, comfortable income and whilst we are making cuts we have always count ourselves very fortunate. Once I make that decision I want a divorce I will be renting in a worse are for probably more then my mortgage, lose 2/3 household income and worst of all I have to hand my kid over every other Xmas etc because he made the choice to have an affair. Our quality of life will be drastically worse with the signing of those divorce papers. People say ltb like it's easy but it's not when you wave goodbye to stability you worked hard in jobs you hated to achieve

NoodleSoup12 · 10/11/2022 20:29

NukaColaQuantum · 08/11/2022 19:23

I’m far less depressed claiming UC top up, private renting and working full time than I was with a second income, mortgage, and working part time because his job was “more important”.

Because I’m not sat seething at the useless lump of fuck sat scratching his balls on the sofa, ignoring the kids, the housework, whilst I hobble around after DDs with a wisdom tooth infection, because I’m not carrying the weight of a second adult who should be my equal and not a millstone around my neck, because I’ve been able to put my kids in paid for childcare in order to work the job I trained for/get a Masters alongside it rather than work for NMW in an office for 16 hours a week because “putting kids in day care is horrible, the school days are long enough as it is.

I could go on. My friends are still stuck like that because they perceive my life as less than

LOVE. The above.

OP, I totally agree. Did you / anyone here have any thoughts on legislation that could support this? I had a friend who couldn’t leave (because age 21 she’d just had a baby, during covid, with a man who claimed he was 10 but was actually 17 years older, had to drop out of uni, lived in a town far from her family he’d convinced her to move to, and honestly I think he knocked her up on purpose, and then told her if she had an abortion she’d been murdering his baby) for financial reasons above all else. She barely had money for a train ticket. She waited til covid was older and her son was old enough for nursery and then saved up money. She lives a very borderline existence but her home is lovely and warm and happy and it used to be tense and frightening and with lots of shouting (him). I used to think that Universal Basic Income and fixed rents (like in New York) would have gone some way to helping her situation.

Teaandtoast35 · 10/11/2022 20:37

I used to think it would never be me but I lost my savings over covid (bc of a loophole HMRC didn’t give me anything like my typical income), then was very sick during pregnancies in 21/22 and have had 4 losses, one a late loss. The physical experience of losses + grief is enormous. I’m self employed. A great job. Used to earn a decent wage. There’s no sick pay for self employed people and only mat pay if your baby dies after 24 weeks. I’ve supported my partner into a much better financial and career position, thinking “it’s family, you do anything for family”, and have recently realised he’s incredibly manipulative and I have to leave. I can’t rent - haven’t had the income recently and savings are gone. Moving back in with parents.

There is no way, as some PPs have said, I could have planned ahead to be more savvy about my economic freedom. Yes there needs to be an acknowledge from the system (ie government) that a lot of poverty comes down to luck and no one needs “motivation”/a whip to not be in poverty. I’m trying my very hardest to get out and build back. I know I can keep going, but I have no idea what’s around the corner - none of us do.

Dinosaurs23 · 10/11/2022 20:50

@Teaandtoast35 So sorry for what you've been through. I also lost my baby very late (6 months) and it is horrific, and I think of my little boy every day. I can't imagine going through it four times. You poor thing. You sound so strong. And now making a life for yourself, recognising the manipulation of your partner. You can do this. Of course you are trying your best - that is all we can do - and anyone who judges people not being as independent or thriving as they might like to be - aren't looking at things with empathy and understanding. Good luck with it all. X

cato40 · 11/11/2022 09:34

Society should change too. Coming from a country where in case of divorce everyone gets what they put in the marriage, I've worked and chose not to stay at home even if I could afford to. Now divorcing in England and will have to pay him because the law supports stay at home mums with the settlement, whereas if you worked as a woman you'll have to pay off your husband, like in my case. Bet if the system was like in most other countries, women would wait to have children till they are earning enough and would stay independent. Downside of my country is that no one have babies because of that!

Randomperson99 · 11/11/2022 22:58

cato40 · 11/11/2022 09:34

Society should change too. Coming from a country where in case of divorce everyone gets what they put in the marriage, I've worked and chose not to stay at home even if I could afford to. Now divorcing in England and will have to pay him because the law supports stay at home mums with the settlement, whereas if you worked as a woman you'll have to pay off your husband, like in my case. Bet if the system was like in most other countries, women would wait to have children till they are earning enough and would stay independent. Downside of my country is that no one have babies because of that!

That is the case. English law incentives you to be lazy! Insane!

Leafblowertime · 11/11/2022 23:01

HappinesDependsOnYou · 10/11/2022 19:48

100% because we were a partnership I dropped my income which allowed me to change direction career wise and now I'm finally in a career I love but that will take a few years to grow earning potential he screwed me over. We have a nice house, in a great area on mortgage, car each, comfortable income and whilst we are making cuts we have always count ourselves very fortunate. Once I make that decision I want a divorce I will be renting in a worse are for probably more then my mortgage, lose 2/3 household income and worst of all I have to hand my kid over every other Xmas etc because he made the choice to have an affair. Our quality of life will be drastically worse with the signing of those divorce papers. People say ltb like it's easy but it's not when you wave goodbye to stability you worked hard in jobs you hated to achieve

But it wasn’t your earnings who got you there, you have stated so. Plenty of women stay for the money , just own it.

mackthepony · 12/11/2022 01:33

Do women who want to leave but do end up staying because of the fact that their DH would get shared custody of the kids?

It's a factor not often mentioned on here

gemsandmilk · 12/11/2022 07:21

NukaColaQuantum · 08/11/2022 20:08

If I ever played and won the insane EuroMillions, the first thing I’d do is snap up every shitty house, do it up properly, and start some sort of thing in which single mothers can rent them for council house rates.

In an ideal world, I’d buy a huge patch of land and set up some form of commune with good quality, affordable housing, round the clock childcare, therapists, a few shit hot solicitors and a really well stocked bar.

Oh wow. This.

the80sweregreat · 12/11/2022 07:33

This is why I dream of a big lottery win so I can buy my friend a house.
She is renting and it's been hard for her since her divorce.
I'd love to also buy a few places to rent out at a very low rent to those who are stuck too.
I agree that many stay on in relationships because the alternatives don't work for them because housing costs are just so high.

Topgub · 12/11/2022 08:40

We need to stop teaching girls that women need a man above all else and that they should be the default parent when they have kids

Make men do their fair share of childcare. Make sure you're not left in a financially vulnerable position.

Have higher standards for your relationship before you commit to kids

Luckydip1 · 12/11/2022 08:44

Another reason not to get married, hopefully one day marriage will be seen for what it is for many, a tragic trap causing a lot of misery.

Mahanii · 12/11/2022 08:59

@dogmama1 that's the bottom line yes. That's how I did it - saved up and paid my ex his share of the equity and got the mortgage put in my sole name.

cosmiccosmos · 12/11/2022 09:05

Agree however no one makes people have children or do many of them. What you've posted is fact however women are in a position to change this and nit allow themselves to get into this position. Whilst it's hard perhaps e should all think of worst case scenarios - what happens if we split up/have affairs etc. sticking to 1 child means everything is easier. How many times have people complained about their partner on this board yet they've continued to have children!

Cuppasoupmonster · 12/11/2022 09:10

But I don’t think people should live half lives, have less children than they want, avoid what could be a very happy marriage etc because ‘just in case’. That would be a very sad life.

Life is the overall experience, not just your financial situation in later years.

Lpc3 · 12/11/2022 11:43

Luckydip1 · 12/11/2022 08:44

Another reason not to get married, hopefully one day marriage will be seen for what it is for many, a tragic trap causing a lot of misery.

Marriage provides the best legal framework for having children. Surely we want to be encouraging women who want children to get married?

Luckydip1 · 12/11/2022 11:49

Lpc3 a lot of children see their parents utterly miserable within a marriage. Some get divorced and some can't face getting divorced. Horrible for the children.

gemsandmilk · 12/11/2022 12:09

This is ultimately an economic/patriarchal problem that is (as we see on this thread) resulting in women being encouraged to make different, harder choices all the time. Close the pay gap, sort out housing costs relative to salaries, improve social housing stock and it would all sort out.

I had to leave my husband earlier this year and now we’re probably going to be poor ish, but that’s better than being dead. I count my blessings and marriage will protect me in the divorce, but if there had been a cheap and ready housing solution I could have left before it became an emergency.

Luckydip1 · 12/11/2022 12:14

This whole issue has been compounded by the incredibly high house prices relative to earnings.

gemsandmilk · 12/11/2022 12:14

Just as a ps, I didn’t have any information/warnings/instructions about marriage and kids from my parents. I just didn’t understand. I got into a situation where it genuine felt like I was working in the sweatshop of an abusive man’s public image. And I am highly educated! I hadn’t realised the transfer of economic power before it was too late. I think they should teach it at school, and also that I now have a moral duty to explain the facts to any younger woman

gemsandmilk · 12/11/2022 12:15

Luckydip1 · 12/11/2022 12:14

This whole issue has been compounded by the incredibly high house prices relative to earnings.

Yes. When women of my mother’s generation got divorced they weren’t even very pleased to ‘get the house’ as it didn’t particularly strike them as an asset

bathsh3ba · 12/11/2022 12:20

It's not just about money though. It's female fertility. Yes we have contraception and abortion but the first is not always reliable and the second isn't a choice every woman is happy to make.

Therefore sex and a relationship come with a risk of pregnancy that the woman has to consider more than the man does.

During pregnancy a woman is physically vulnerable and child rearing needs time and energy and makes her further vulnerable in financial terms.

Earning more doesn't change this biological reality.