So fed up and think I give up on men

[Missillusioned78]

I am 44. I would really like a fulfilling equal relationship.

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

I have a full life of work, friends, hobbies and my wonderful children. I am not rich but getting by with my home. We are happy.

I am SO disappointed with men. Don’t know whether to just give up

@Sosillysilly

you are just ranting about stuff that is meaningless
do you know much or anything about violence against women perpetrated by men ?

I have no idea how this is relevant. Thats a bizarre segway. Men hit women so women can be delusional when it comes to dating? Interesting argument...

that would be interesting to hear your views on ad it’s a Far more important subject than dating sites

Funnily enough for you, I've already commented on hit. Men measure very marginally higher than women on traits like disagreeableness and violent tendencies. Small differences in the mean produce large discrepancies at the tails. Full disclosure; from reading your posts I have no confidence you will understand any of that.

Fun fact for you, in the year of Sarah Everard's murder when people were screaming that 'our streets aren't safe for women,' there were approx (cant remember the exact figures, but ONS has them) 250 murders where women were the victim (most of which were from attackers known to the victim) whilst there were 450 murders of men (most of which were attackers unknown to the victim). So it seems that male homicide is a much bigger issue and the streets are far more unsafe for men than they are for women. But we can't let facts get in the way of a good narrative I guess...

How does it affect you and why are you on mumsnet so invested in telling women what they are doing wrong in your opinion

Its not just telling women what they are doing wrong. And because I actually care about reasoned debate and creating policy based on facts and reason, not emotion.

If this were true what’s it to do with you how other people live . Had it occurred to you many women enjoy single motherhood and for those who don’t. Your not obliged or even asked to engage with them

Well firstly, single motherhood has been shown to be linked with lower educational attainment, lower economic outcomes and poorer health. That seems like an outcome we should try to reduce, not encourage.

Secondly, a society with a declining birth rate and greater gender conflict has pretty negative consequences for all of us. Pensions are underfunded currently and dismal demographics due to a declining birthrate mean that either taxes have to go to pay for the largest generation to retire or the living standards of pensioners must decline. Then there's the real problem of what to do with an growing cohort of potentially unmarried and childless men - I wouldn't want to be in China's shoes sitting on an extra 50 million men and a top heavy ageing population right now.

You are correct in one thing though; arguing about this on Mumsnet isn't going to change or affect anything. I'm pretty fatalistic about it all. Armed with the information, you plot a course best for your personal circumstances and shrug your shoulders about those that will be left to deal with the mess. If you see your vessel heading towards an iceberg and the captain maintains its nothing but a bit of fog, you commandeer a lifeboat and row - you don't wait for it to hit.

I notice no rebuttal based on evidence.

I see a lot of vitriol, which says more about you than it does me.

Are you sure its my nerve that's been touched?

I just don't think online dating is conducive to a long term fulfilling relationship in the majority of cases.

Meeting someone in the real world is just more organic and natural. You get to know them, realise you have similar interests or the same sense of humour. You like the way they walk or their enthusiasm for a hobby. The twinkle in their eye or how their face lights up when they talk about their loved ones.

All these little things are actually very important in attraction but are missed with online dating. It just forces to you have a checklist and try and get as many boxes ticked as possible even though that may not actually be what is fulfilling for you long term.

I just don't think online dating is conducive to a long term fulfilling relationship in the majority of cases

Nor are most 'organic' dates.

Many LTRs are formed from online dating. All of the online dates have to turn into meeting someone in the real world, anyway, and then all of the judgements you mention can occur.

Most successful relationships I know are from people who met at work, university, sport or other hobby. They were well known to one another before they even went on a date.

I don't disagree with you that OLD is the most common way to meet someone nowadays I just don't think it is the best way.

Statistically how physically attractive you find your partner is one of the worse predictors of a happy, healthy relationship yet OLD prioritises this.

I see so many people spend years on the apps becoming more and more miserable. I'm glad I only tried them briefly before deleting them.

Most successful relationships I know are from people who met at work, university, sport or other hobby. They were well known to one another before they even went on a date

So? Dating apps are right in the middle of these in popularity, so whether you think they're best or 'who you know' is neither here nor there. They are, for some, a means of getting miserable, and for others, a means of meeting a long term partner.

OLD does not prioritise looks. There are photos, but with meeting face to face, there is a face. Looks are available either way, as is other information about the person. The person looking is the one who prioritises the traits.

@SittingCat
‘Funnily enough for you, I've already commented on hit. Men measure very marginally higher than women on traits like disagreeableness and violent tendencies. Small differences in the mean produce large discrepancies at the tails. Full disclosure; from reading your posts I have no confidence you will understand any of that.’

Wow
that’s a doozy … equating the assualt and murder of women with disagreeable ness scales

i guess in your deluded mind being disagreeable is the same as murdering an intimate partner

if your going to claim that women are assaulting and murdering men , at anywhere near the numbers men are then you better come up
with some numbers . Not silly numbers that ‘you ‘ create in your head but data by a well respected institute showing women are killing men at the same rate as vice versa

go look at the femi code census which shows women killed by men each year and then show me the data for how many men are killed by women . You then have the complete insensitively and ignorance to compare that to diagreeableness

That alone , even without your patronising know it all tone ( which you are far far from knowing it all ) is enough in my opinion to show that you are not capable of any rational discussion nor empathy for women at all

like many before I’m done Go ahead have the last word you know you want it

Very much agree with you here lpc

As a side note to anyone concerned about violence being equated with ‘disagreeableness’

As well as the perpetrators of violence against females being men , violence against males is also nearly always committed by men

‘Around 95% of all victims of violence, whether women or men, experience violence from a male perpetrator.’ White Ribbon Foundation

No high value successful man sits virtually amongst a bunch of women, arguing and being dismissive of them. For ages. He'd be secure in himself enough not to bother seeking out a way to do that. It wouldn't even come to mind. Apply logic here.

It also highlights an issue not often admitted - too many women give too much time and attention to random men not actually worth that time and attention. Its of no benefit and has inevitable consequences.

Then when things go wrong, it's 'I give up on men'...

@SittingCat

because you don't like some of his comments

I have mixed views on Peterson. They are not all bad.

or heard an incel cite him

Never said this.

He's an academic

Duh. I know who he is.

There are plenty of female psychologists working in this area

NOOOO!!! Really?! My God I would never have known that if you hadn't informed me.

Where are the hundreds of studies showing that height and educational attainment have no statistically significant correlation to mate preference?

You're arguing with someone else here. I never asserted that height or educational attainment (markers of intelligence, maybe) have no or little correlation to 'mate preference'.

I wouldn’t bother

he’s actually arguing with himself . I havnt seen one person here say that height or education may not influence someone’s mate preference .
what I have seen is people repeatedly saying that hi cares . Lots of things influence lately preference including age and beauty

the he just keeps on coming back with height and education influence mate preference . It’s like banging your head against a brick wall, he just goes in circle and circles

and God forbid you raise anything about male behaviour like a little thing like ‘ killing women ‘ he will say oh but men are only slightly more disagreeable than women.

If you wander out into the real world there is a full rainbow mix of amazing men (and women) and another rainbow of utter male and female grunts.

Anyone to has enough time on their hands to think by reading some red pill shit on the internet knows all about the complexities of attraction and desire is utterly deluded.

But there is no talking to incels, who wants to anyway. Self-fulfilling prophecy really. What you need to question is who wants the sad incels to believe the red pill nonsense,could it be other men to make sure they have more of the high net worth females for themselves?

@frozendaisy

Yes so true .

In fact the red pill movement has done women a huge favour as it’s a great screening tool for the ones to avoid for women.

Sorry, trying to get back on track a bit.

Lots of people post on mumsnet that they've found the perfect partner on OLD, so it does happen. However at 44 most of the 'nice' men will be happily married (does happen away from mumsnet) or simply getting on with their life, lots of single people have happy and fulfilled lives. If OLD was the veg counter then you've come along late and you'll have to rake through what's left to find the good stuff that hasn't been taken yet. Sometimes there's decent veg under all the broken and wonkey stuff, sometimes there isn't, you don't know if you don't look.

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed

Why is he the only man who interests you? You can't simply be disappointed in men simply because you don't find the nice men appealing.

@Sosillysilly

i guess in your deluded mind being disagreeable is the same as murdering an intimate partner

Nobody reasonable would believe that was my position from what I posted. Being hysterical and making stuff up is not a valid argument.

if your going to claim that women are assaulting and murdering men , at anywhere near the numbers men are then you better come up

with some numbers . Not silly numbers that ‘you ‘ create in your head but data by a well respected institute showing women are killing men at the same rate as vice versa

Can you point to where exactly I said that? I'll wait.

Throwing an argument out there that I didn't make in order to somehow claim all my ideas are evil is the argumentative strategy of a child.

go look at the femi code census which shows women killed by men each year and then show me the data for how many men are killed by women . You then have the complete insensitively and ignorance to compare that to diagreeableness

Err, no. Because that's got nothing to do with any of my points.

That alone , even without your patronising know it all tone ( which you are far far from knowing it all ) is enough in my opinion to show that you are not capable of any rational discussion nor empathy for women at all

I have more degrees than most people have GCSEs. I will not apologise for being intelligent.

You haven't presented any rational arguments at all. Its hysterical nonsense.

@DeeCeeCherry

No high value successful man sits virtually amongst a bunch of women, arguing and being dismissive of them. For ages. He'd be secure in himself enough not to bother seeking out a way to do that. It wouldn't even come to mind. Apply logic here.

Your logic would also apply to high value females presumably.

You, and others, are desperate for personal information about me. Because when you have it, you can come up with a narrative that allows you to dismiss the arguments presented out of hand. If I'm a male, "He's not high value and just jealous." If I'm female, its my 'internalised misogyny.' How old am I? Because if I'm 25, I 'dont have life experience,' and if I'm 45, I've 'been hurt before,' or 'have warped views.'

I prefer to let the rationale and the arguments stand on their own two feet.

@EarthSight

NOOOO!!! Really?! My God I would never have known that if you hadn't informed me.

You raised Peterson as if it was a prima facie negative, so I think my response was justified. If you raise all of the points I've made with these female psychologists that you know so well, they wouldn't rail against it like many here are. They'd laugh for stating something so obvious.

You have yet to actually say what you think, you want to simply speak in a condescending tone that indicates some hidden knowledge without actually writing down anything that can actually be discussed, criticised or proven incorrect. Again, that's the argumentative strategy of a child.

@Sosillysilly

the he just keeps on coming back with height and education influence mate preference . It’s like banging your head against a brick wall, he just goes in circle and circles

I'm afraid its you that can't keep up with the argument being made.

So that you can follow this clearly;

My contention is not that 'Women (or men) aren't allowed dating preferences,'

It's that;

'On the whole, women have an over inflated sense as to what an attractive man is in the dating market relative to the men they are selecting.'

In any efficient matching market, the 10th percentile X gets paired with the 10th percentile Y. But the 30th percentile woman wants the 5th percentile man. Inefficient markets break.

@frozendaisy

But there is no talking to incels, who wants to anyway.

Whilst this accusation keeps getting tossed about, because many posters here would love for it to be true so they can dismiss everything I've said, I've literally stated in this thread that the incels (the modern kind anyway) are idiots.

Not because their foundational information is incorrect, but because the correct response to this knowledge isn't to retreat in to their bedrooms, 'go their own way' and wait for the sex robots, Its to get to the gym, work hard to be successful, learn some social skills and enjoy the benefits that brings.

yawn 😂

Yes strange isn’t it , their compulsion to come lecture women on mumsnet…

I think @SittingCat was just offering advice to the OP. It's good to get a different perspective as it can help solve the issue.

This is unreasonable. Mumsnet is for parents, not just for mums, as per the subtitle of the forum 'by parents, for parents'.

There's plenty of women on here slating men, and it's not a women's forum. Slating men/slating women... it just keeps the separatism going. Anybody slating anybody should be removed, really.

@Missillusioned78 let's back to your topic. What sort of guy are you looking for? Someone nice, a bad boy, hunky, clever, exciting?

@SittingCat

Not because their foundational information is incorrect, but because the correct response to this knowledge isn't to retreat in to their bedrooms, 'go their own way' and wait for the sex robots, Its to get to the gym, work hard to be successful, learn some social skills and enjoy the benefits that brings.

You mention nothing about kindness, expanding your horizons by travel, reading. Understanding respect for all people whom are decent. Acceptance with yourself, finding beauty and interest in music, the natural world around you, helping neighbours. Your decided solutions are gym and work, and learn social skills to what disguise one's preferred awful personality? All for the self benefits. That's it? Not really groundbreaking stuff eh.

There are so many lovely people who are driven by a desire to leave the world when they depart a better place than they inherited it. You don't need a degree, but sometimes it helps, mechanics who opened their garages for essential workers during the pandemic, neighbours who walked dogs for people isolating, corner shop owners who made sure they had loo roll and pasta for those unable or too scared to go out, music teachers who strove to conduct virtual choirs, friends who made virtual discos for the kids. No degrees, just kindness. They are decent people. Maybe they are impressed by a gym body and a flash Audi with stilted social skills but I wouldn't count on it.

I don’t know a single woman who is choosing men based on height and income etc. All of my single friends are looking for the same things I am in a man - and the same things we all possess:

a full mouthful of teeth,
non-smoker
the ability to string a sentence together,
good personal hygiene regardless of size, age or looks,
optimism about finding love (no bitterness about exes etc),
some free time to invest in a relationship,
a clean and tidy home.
no young children or babies

That doesn’t sound like too much to ask, but apparently we are all being “hysterical” for trying to point this out to certain posters. (FYI using the word hysterical would be an instant swipe left for me - misogyny is not on my list of must-haves.)

No actually that’s not what’s he’d done at all. He’s come on here to lecture women about how He perceives that they aim to high , are deluded , are unrealistic and expect too much when dating
hr has minimised violence against women by equating it with ‘ disagreeableness traits , he had written long novellas ranting at women about how they are ‘ hysterical and emotional and he is apparently ‘ intelligent ‘ ? For which he won’t apologise lol)

All of this and soooooo much more is why so many of the women on this thread are refusng to engage with him .