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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

So fed up and think I give up on men

382 replies

Missillusioned78 · 29/10/2022 23:10

I am 44. I would really like a fulfilling equal relationship.

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

I have a full life of work, friends, hobbies and my wonderful children. I am not rich but getting by with my home. We are happy.

I am SO disappointed with men. Don’t know whether to just give up

OP posts:
Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 09:19

OhamIreally · 01/11/2022 09:01

Yeah it was the "man-pandering hours" that put me off dating.

Man pandering sounds pretty easy really, just sit them in some nice greenery and feed them bamboo…

SittingCat · 01/11/2022 09:38

@Twistiewistie

i asked for statistics showing ‘women are as bad as men ‘

I showed this. Its a natural consequence of the normal distribution. Small differences in mean inherently produce large differences at the tails. Every time. Without fail. '90% of prisoners are men therefore men are far more violent than women' is a completely untrue statement that no statistician would agree with. Its backwards reasoning, dead on arrival. The fact that lay people think this is true is why most people are useless when it comes to Statistics & Probability. I think you simply lack the mathematical fluency or intellectual capacity to understand this.

Do you have any experience using the normal distribution? Do you know what it is? Do you have any experience with Statistics at all? I say 'experience' because ND is A Level, so I'd hardly call it experience.

And that women only date the top 15% of men

I didn't post statistics, I posted data sets. Use them.

Average income (50th percentile) is 26k/yr pre tax. Average height (50th percentile) is 5ft 9. No kids at 30 we will use 30% again.

0.5 0.5 0.3 = 0.075. Our man on 26k/yr at 5ft 9 is a top 8% man.

To get a 15th percentile man, we would need to use 0.7 x 0.7 x 0.3. That's a man earning 19.9k/yr (pre-tax!), 5ft 7 man with no kids.

How do you think this hypothetical man does on dating sites? Does he sound like a catch to you? Remember, this guy is in the top 15%. He should be doing very well for himself.

Have you ever dated such a man? Seems fairly acheivable for most right.. but as you've said 'Every man I see is FAR from a top percenter [sic].' Which kind of proves my point - you've been surrounded by 'top percenters' all your life, you just don't view them as such because your standards are way off.

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 09:45

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 09:48

Ther best men to be around in my experience are those who love life , are happy with themselves and appreciate that women are unique individuals , not ornaments just as they are … that attitude is what’s attractive !

BigFatLiar · 01/11/2022 09:51

The only man I have met who interests me treats me as someone to ring on the way home when pissed.

This is OP's complaint really. The men she fancies treat her badly. There are probably lots out there who wouldn't but she doesn't fancy them. Hard luck, there are probably lots of nice men wondering why they don't get nice dates, thats life.

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 09:55

Also when I said that the men I see are far from top percenters I was using ‘your terminology ‘ in which you seem to assume men need some height and or money standard to be ‘ top percenters’
i don’t use that measure …. What I should have said to not enable you to twist my worlds is I look around and every married or partnered man I see is not over six foot or Rich

I don’t consider money and or height measures or a man’s worth just as I don’t consider youth and beauty a measure of a woman’s worth

I see people as much much more and I choose to associate with others who are similar in their values.

We all get to make those choices for ourselves

do you enjoy the dating apps or not and if not why are you on them ?

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 10:04

Btw I wasn’t the person who mentioned most men being prisoners . I was very clear that men commit most rapes and murders and those statistics are very clear!!! Nothing to do with prison stats !

SittingCat · 01/11/2022 10:14

@Twistiewistie

if a small percentage of men are getting sex from women who want sex SO WHaT .

Since you keep banging on about red pill, let me take you on a little history lesson.... The incel movement, from which the red pill stuff derives, was started by a woman. It was a place where people of both genders could come for support because they wanted an intimate relationship with someone from the opposite sex but they could not get it - hence, 'involuntarily celibate.'

It got hijacked by a load of crank men and became the mess it is today. I think there are some great parallels there with feminism and truly believe many women are starting to rethink some of this stuff. As I've posted before, Louise Perry (female) wrote a good book on this arguing that the sexual revolution (ie. the pill) had some negative unintended consequences. There are an increasing number of female scientists writing papers on this and making much the same comments (because duh, they are less harder to cancel on this than male scientists). That doesn't mean women should give up the pill and get back in to the kitchen (and that is where the incel men go wrong), but the first step to solving a problem is acknowledging there is one.

Spouting rubbish like;

Know your value and hold your own beliefs

isn't sound advice or 'empowering' to women that want to start a family. When there are 40 male graduates to 60 female graduates, telling a woman 'Know your value and demand someone with a degree' is a lie that dooms 20 (33%) of them, at least, to being single. Do we think there might be a link between some of these new frictions in the dating market and the fertility rate in western countries being in freefall for the last twenty years?

If you were giving advice to our hypothetical 15th percentile man who couldn't get a date in the UK its pretty easy - go to China, SK, Singapore or Vietnam. Women there are more intelligent (consistently outperform vs western countries on standardised tests), more attractive (lower rates of obesity) and more family orientated (lower rates of divorce). Contrary to what you may think of them, the reason western men can just turn up in some of these places and take their pick of the local women is because they are generally more attractive than the locals. But, more importantly, whats the solution for women in the UK that can't get the top men to pick them and settle down? Where do the women go when they've decided that western men are useless? Stay in the UK and accept forever singledom? Seems a bit dystopian. Eastern Europe? I'd grant you physically fitter (lower obesity and taller than average) but also lower educational attainment, lower economic outcomes and higher competition from the local women. Africa? Asia? Most of the people in the aforementioned incel community actually happen to be Black or Asian (not White and far right as many would have you believe) because they can't get women to pick them on dating apps...

WOmen are perfectly entitled to do what they want when dating just as men have for Millenia

The men currently on the planet weren't around 1000 years ago you know. You can't punish them for what their ancestors. You're bitter and a blatant misandrist.

And whilst we are at it, men didn't do everything that they wanted. The rules, particularly in more primitive societies, are set by those in power - which of course were men. So why would a group of men in power act against their own self interests and promote a (mainly) monogamous society involving marriage & adultery? Seems odd, does it not? If you were a man in power, why not just keep all the women to yourself? Well, there are some interesting game theoretic arguments that would suggest that monogamy is a more stable solution (less men willing to rise up against you in power if they also have access to women to marry).

SittingCat · 01/11/2022 10:17

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 10:04

Btw I wasn’t the person who mentioned most men being prisoners . I was very clear that men commit most rapes and murders and those statistics are very clear!!! Nothing to do with prison stats !

Well, 'rape' is defined as penetration by a penis in UK law. So yes, when its defined like that, its probably not a surprise that 100% of rapes are committed by men.

You seem to have an inability to recognise facts, so you probably won't even realise the significance of the above statement.

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 10:35

@SittingCat

i am not going to read ALL of that long long posts you wrote but to address some key points pill and frankly it’s been discussed does it matter it came from or what it is . It’s just pretty boring at this point don’t you think . You claim women date the top 15 percent of men
I think that’s rubbish But even IF it were true it really means nothing
many of us marry short men with no money … go figure huh
and no I don’t believe that knowing your own value is nonsense ‘ I’d give the same advice to a son
you seem to have a lot of anger and be extremely upset at who women do or don’t approach

once again if recommend that if it worries you so very much then don’t go on the dating sites . Surround yourself with people who’s values you like . A gender awareness’s class where you could learn about the long history of oppression of women would be about the only thing that might help even balance your views but I am sure you are not interested in learning about that seeing as you rant on about the definition of rape rather than acknowledge that yes men are murdering and ASSAULTING a women in far greater numbers than vice versa

im disengaging with you .

Talon01 · 01/11/2022 15:36

OK leaving a few things aside from the above, what does the research /evidence suggest regarding online dating.

Not antidote but the research that is out there.

Please answer that question.

Talon01 · 01/11/2022 15:36

The above post @Twistiewistie

CheekyHobson · 01/11/2022 17:26

Know your value and hold your own beliefs isn't sound advice or 'empowering' to women that want to start a family. When there are 40 male graduates to 60 female graduates, telling a woman 'Know your value and demand someone with a degree' is a lie that dooms 20 (33%) of them, at least, to being single.

The actual problem here is that you insist on taking a general statement (Know your own value and hold your own beliefs) and twisting it into a much more specific statement (only accept a man with a university degree) that you can then hold up as a straw man to shoot down.

You are a lone voice on this thread insisting that all women looking for a “decent man” are only considering high-earning, university-educated, 6 foot plus-ers with no kids, as this is wildly outside the reality of what women in their 40s are actually open to.

You can continue “disproving” the straw man situation you have set up but you are just wasting everyone’s time, including your own.

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:29

SittingCat · 30/10/2022 07:00

You are 44 and occupying your time with work, hobbies & children. You're not rich, but getting by. Think about the man that you would ideally want to attract and ask yourself, what do you offer that man? I imagine the answer is very little and so the crux of the problem is your demands are far higher than the offer you are presenting.

A mid to late forties man, somewhat economically successful, intelligent (graduate at least shall we say), somewhat physically fit and well presented - sound about right? Such a person could fairly easily be attracting late twenties / early thirties women without kids.

LOL. This may be news to you, but most young women's ideal age is either their own age, or up to five years older, max. They really don't dream of men in their 40s, no matter how rich, well presented or successful their are. They might think 'He looks nice for his age' or 'If I were the same age, maybe I'd be interested' but other than that, it's a no for most young women.

In fact, they see men on the prowl for much younger women as a warning sign. That middle age women are not desirable for that man.....so where will that young woman be in 10-20 years' time? Tossed aside for a younger model. No thank you.

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:29

they are*

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:35

and more family orientated (lower rates of divorce)

God the amount of times I've heard this shit.

'Family orientated' frequently means - domestic, stays at home a lot

Lower divorce rate? Often translates to thousands or millions of economically women trapped in horrible, abusive marriages, unable to divorce their husbands. Some of them may even die before leaving their marriage due to having to stay far too long with a violent husband out of cultural or religious expectations. Sounds bloody ideal for certain types of men, I'm sure.

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:40

DaughterofBrum · 31/10/2022 20:49

Bisexual women (and the bi men I've met) can assure you women tend to age better. They take better care of themselves. That (among other reasons) is why they can 'get sex' (assuming they want sex with random strangers- and why not, if they do).
The manosphere geezer on here (sitting cat, is that the name) outed himself very quickly by the thing about women's apparent obsession with men 'over 6ft' and then some concerning burbling about feminism 'telling' women in their 20s they should sleep around and with his statistical brilliance he has calculated that this sleeping around will be to the benefit of all those super hot super successful peter pan 40 somethings can snap up the dirty little things. Or whatever he's blethering on about from his bachelor pad

😂

Luckydip1 · 01/11/2022 19:48

There was some research done a while ago with a large number of men and women of all ages. The women were shown a large number of photos of different men and the men pictures of women. The outcome was that the women found the men aged c. 40 years old the most attractive and the men found the women of c. 24 years old the most attractive. I think this comes down to our biology.

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:48

The more I read your posts @SittingCat , the more I'm convinced you have listened to Jordan Peterson podcasts and videos so many times that you have memorised the information very well and can parrot it. I'm not knocking Peterson, but you might want to take a break from him for a while and go explore other other thinkers.

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:49

Luckydip1 · 01/11/2022 19:48

There was some research done a while ago with a large number of men and women of all ages. The women were shown a large number of photos of different men and the men pictures of women. The outcome was that the women found the men aged c. 40 years old the most attractive and the men found the women of c. 24 years old the most attractive. I think this comes down to our biology.

Source please.

dersalways1 · 01/11/2022 19:54

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:48

The more I read your posts @SittingCat , the more I'm convinced you have listened to Jordan Peterson podcasts and videos so many times that you have memorised the information very well and can parrot it. I'm not knocking Peterson, but you might want to take a break from him for a while and go explore other other thinkers.

I think he sounds like a fan of Kevin Samuels (who just died) and people of that ilk!

EarthSight · 01/11/2022 19:59

@dersalways1 I don't know who that is, but I'm banking on Peterson. There is specific phrasing he uses or facts he likes to talk about that is incredibly similar to the poster.

supercali77 · 01/11/2022 20:02

@SittingCat You are insane if you think the only reason men are recorded as far more likely to commit acts of rape is purely because its defined as penetrative sex. There isn't a dirge of women going round raping people with non-penis based objects. Stop trying to gaslight the entire thread.

dersalways1 · 01/11/2022 20:06

Anyway OP if you are out there still. Don't listen to these misogynists who have derailed your thread. They sound bitter and seem to have ample time to "school" women on how they should be grateful for any man they can get 🤣! Therefore, I'm willing to bet that they are under 6 foot, broke and powerless in the real world and cry themselves to sleep at night wishing they could have achieved something in life. Successful men would be tending to their businesses and would not be trying desperately to convince women that they should have no standards or personal preferences.

Listen clever women with confidence would rather be alone than with your type.

You just have to look around to see that they spout utter rubbish.

Twistiewistie · 01/11/2022 20:21

Talon01 · 01/11/2022 15:36

OK leaving a few things aside from the above, what does the research /evidence suggest regarding online dating.

Not antidote but the research that is out there.

Please answer that question.

Which ‘evidence’ are you referring to ? Eviidence of what ????

and more importantly … WHY does it matter?

Swipe left for the next trending thread