November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

@Escapingafter50years hugs to you. And good on you for standing firm. You are so right not to get drawn back in.

@MyFragility the question has to be asked about the gap between your sister saying your mother is very ill to your mum saying “pop by”. Sounds like they’re manipulating you and possibly colluding to do so. Stand firm. Xxxx

Thank you for sharing your experience and advice @Escapingafter50years . You are spot on for pointing out that our toxic family have had plenty of time to resolve things but don't and also for reminding me that my toxic family are simply looking after their own needs and ignoring mine. Actually, that has always been their modus operandi. I've been so used to hiding my needs or having them dismissed. They use the classic FOG and religion to demand that I serve them.

I also wanted to thank you Escapingafter50years for recommending the book 'Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents'. It certainly is an eye-opener. I am 3/4 of the way through the book and it is so helpful and helps me to understand them and that I am not alone. Thank you for the recommendation.

@MonkeyfromManchester - yes you are right about the manipulation. In the past, I have always sorted out my mum's financial and health affairs. But since I have gone NC it is now left to them to sort out and I know that DSis will be completely out of her comfort zone as they have always relied on me and claimed they couldn't do it for various reasons.

Thanks for giving me a reminder to stay strong going NC. I am finding it easier as the days go by and I don't miss them at all and in fact feel less stressed. However, when they still message me - it stirs up very uncomfortable feelings. I long to respond but I know it will just give them more ammunition or more chance to reel me back in. It is HARD.

Also - thank you @Coconut80 for sharing your experience. Your comment about your toxic in-laws behaving as if they are the eternal victims was hauntingly familiar. Thanks for reminding me that their opinion means nothing and it will never change.

For many years I wanted to go NC but never had the confidence. It is also not the 'norm' so it makes it harder. Even now, my DH and close friends do not fully understand my decision to go NC, especially with my Mum's health issues, but they come from healthy stable family relationships. However, I remind myself that in one of the most difficult times of my life, they were not there in the way that I wanted them to be. I too would have loved to have a true family that cared, and I tried so hard. So as Atilla says, I am grieving not only for my DS but also for the family I didn't have. I only wish that I had gone NC much earlier as it as taken a tragedy to force me into action.

@MyFragility it is SO hard. It’s year on year of abuse and manipulation and it’s so hard to shrug it off. REALLY glad you are standing firm. It’s the best dichotomy, isn’t it? Huge expectations coupled with tons of abuse.

This is what my vile MIL aka The Hag has. She is hideous to the people (her sons) who support her with shopping, financial admin, health appointments, life admin. That woman does NOTHING. I am dreading Xmas with her. But I’ve arranged it that it’s 2 hours of lunch here rather than a day and a night of the Hag at my mums. Our house, our terms.

Every single day we are pushing back on her games. Mr Monkey as of today now has his home mobile switched off at work so she can’t bombard him with seven calls a day. Her expectation is that everyone should be at her beck and call. Slave Son is expected to be available to ring her at least twice a day. He doesn’t work and, ultimately, it’s his responsibility as to whether he does this and takes extra calls. He’s given up on having a life and this is how it ends. Mr Monkey DOES work and even if he didn’t he wouldn’t fall into the trap.

I’m well out of it. Numbers are blocked on my mobile. Hag doesn’t ring the landline, although it will be interesting to see in the new regime whether she does try to ring the number when MM’s mobile is switched off this weeks. She knows I’m at home every day and doesn’t think I work (I’m freelance). When the Hell Hound was staying here, she would pause outside the spare room/my office and ask Mr Monkey if I was asleep. 😂 Knowing full well I could hear.

I’m not picking up. The same rules of not being disturbed apply to me. MM is not announcing the new rules to her or Slave Son.

@MonkeyfromManchester Thanks for your kind words. I actually don't feel tempted to get in touch with her or any of her family, but right now, knowing she's in hospital and there could be news of her death in the near future, I am feeling stressed about the aftermath. I have to keep telling myself it's in the future, I don't know for sure that I will have pressure from her family and I'll take whatever steps I can to protect myself. That's what I'm finding hard at the moment.

@MyFragility I'm glad my words helped a bit and that you're finding the Adult Children book helpful. It really isn't you! That must be difficult knowing your DH and close friends don't get it. I know my husband didn't really get it until a few years ago, he just thought she was "difficult", but then she targetted her manipulation at him and her fury when he didn't comply, and finally he saw her true colours.

I've mentioned before about the Insight podcasts by Katie McKenna and Helen Villiers. They read a letter from someone who is experiencing narcisstic abuse and they deconstruct the events described, explaining what's going on, why it's unacceptable, and often giving advice on how to deal with the behaviour.
There are lots of them here: podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/in-sight/id1613030538

For me the most eye-opening was "The Cost of No: How one little boundary can spark total abandonment" as in my case I'd tolerated over 50 years of abuse, but when she told me I wasn't a proper mother I finally said enough. This podcast was especially validating for me and I expect you wouldn't have to listen to too many before you feel very validated and there may be an episode you could ask your husband and or friends to listen to.

Escapingafter50years, that is interesting about one boundary sparking abandonment I am also in my 50s and for the first time plucked up courage to tell mine she had said something rude (everything is rude is rare she says something nice) result was “how dare you” have now been dropped in addition to her only grandchildren, she cannot acknowledge her own behaviour at all

Hi all, I have been lurking for some time and find these threads helpful. I found I could tick off a lot of the narc mum bingo card on the previous thread! Who was it who said "They think they're so special but they're really all the same"? It's true!

I am coming to terms with the realisation that there may be narcissism or something similar in my family. I am in contact with them and they have been behaving lately, but I still dread seeing them or being contacted by them - I think it's because I have spent so much of my life treading on eggshells and I feel like it could all kick off again at any moment without any warning. I don't know what to do, or if I should do anything at all.

If they've been behaving they may be in the "nice" part of the nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one. Treading on eggshells is code to my mind for living in fear.

I would start lowering all levels of interaction with them gradually. You would not tolerate this from a friend and they are no different. You do not need their approval, not that they'd ever give this to you anyway.

@Escapingafter50years you're welcome. I think a key thing with all this crap is the grief we feel for the relationship we never had with them. I don’t with The Hag, but I know Mr Monkey does/did. That’s getting less and less as she behaves like a manipulative psycho and he sees the little tricks. I think there will be some sadness when she dies but about the misery she causes and how it could have been different. We have done everything to make it better, but have now stepped away as it’s a game and the only person who can/should take responsibility is here.

we are all here for you.

@Sicario has great advice on dealing with the aftermath and siblings,

@Shortbread49 their disbelief and ‘hurt’ when challenged is so common. They think they’re perfect. Does she criticise your children?

@DavesSpareDeckChair we hear you! This is a great place for validation. My advice is to record in a diary what and when they do something as it validates, too AND you have a reference to look at when backing away. Keep them at arms length is best. Plenty of people to talk to here.

I’m no contact with the Hag and MM is low contact. She’s given up on sucking me in - she never liked me for stealing her son (potential slave) and spotting her behaviours. Mr Monkey, thanks to therapy, is low contact. He only does medical appointments and life admin for her; he doesn’t do the nice stuff like meals out as it’s pointless. The last time the Hag was in our house - we live 10 mins walk away - was March 2021. MUCH BETTER.

Yes started criticising them , said something mean to a 5 year old who luckily didn’t notice but when she got to 7 she did and announced that Grandma was mean

@Shortbread49 out of the mouths of babes. Children know and they compare good parenting with bad grandparenting. Hag’s grandsons see her weird behaviour - eldest has autism and doesn’t get it and has sucked into the Narc games, younger does get it, is totally weirded out by her, is polite but keeps his distance.

Thank you for reminding me the cycle of abuse happens in families too aswell as romantic relationships.

As i wrote early my Dsis had confronted my parents and has gone NC. My dad has been massively manipulative and messaged her fiance to try see their grandchildren.
My Dsis went mental and told me dad some home truths about how he was a rubbish dad to her.
My mum starting ranting to me and I stated I did not want to get involved and be included. She continued to rant and stated our dad never laid a finger on me and my Dsis. This is def not true! There were so many times he smacked up and left a high print and it hurt so bad. Other times he would drag us by our arms or hair. Hit us over the head. All whilst our mum was there to witness.

So I'm baffled how she can say he never laid a finger on us. Does anyone else's parents deny they ever did any wrong doing? Is this normal?

Yes that's normal. I think a lot of the time they really believe it as well. When they weren't able to admit the behaviour was wrong at the time, they'll never accept it happened or apologise for it later.

Very true I got “I was only joking, I don’t understand why you thought it was rude? That’s all I have to say for now” I.e. you are at fault and end of subject

Ugh I've always got "I'm only joking". So frustrating isn't it because you know they're not.

Totally normal. Hag screamed at Mr Monkey when she realised he had added up what his childhood was, his closeness to my family and how he was pulling away out of her control.

I WAS A GOOD MOTHER.

Laughable. The fact she screamed it is so ironic.

The abusers live in complete denial. And if you do get ANY acknowledgment it comes with the expectations that you capitulate and say “no, it wasn’t that bad, you did your best etc etc etc.”.

Finding it very stressful, trying to work from home and my elderly aunt has left me a voicemail to call her urgently. She's blocked but can still leave voice messages. I feel like a caged animal, there's no escape! My "mother" has ignored me for 6 months, her last letter called me a liar and told me to leave her alone, and now my aunt is putting all this pressure on. I expect she wants me to visit my "mother" in hospital to make peace, completely ignoring that my "mother" is the cause of this situation and she has been enabled by her family who didn't even bother to check how I was and ask what actually happened. I will not contact aunt or visit hospital but am finding the situation very difficult. I've now changed my phone to not show notifications of voicemails and am sorry I didn't think of this before.

Hang on in there and well done finding another defensive method to protect yourself practically.

I suspect that your aunt is self serving - she is likely meeting her own needs of discharging her own stress of dealing with your mother on to you.

She isn’t concerned for your welfare.

She is part of the toxic facilitatory system and is personally feeling the extra heat/tension that would have gone to you. She needs you to step back in as a buffer and absorb it all.

Hold tight. It’s tough.

Thank you @Glorified , sensible words. You're right, my aunt is self serving. That side of the family is manipulative and controlling, I noticed that in her voicemails my aunt isn't giving anything away, just saying she wants a word, and today to call her urgently.

As you say, it's tough, particularly as I've always been fond of my aunt but now thanks to "mother" I can't ever have a relationship with any of her family because it would be conditional on me "behaving". And also now that I've seen their true colours!

Yep, similar here.
I have very vivid memories of being "smacked" repeatedly with a slipper on the bare arse by my dad until I was absolutely hysterical.
In particular, I remember once incident of my mum bathing me and seeing bruises and bringing my dad in to show him that he'd gone too far. My mum corroborates this memory.

My dad: "I never hit you"

Artemi

Both Hotchocolate and yourself may want to contact NAPAC and I’ve put a link to them here napac.org.uk. What happened to you both is not your fault, this is all on them.

Escaping

Ignore your aunt who is acting here as the flying monkey (perhaps also sent in by your mother to do her bidding). Flying monkeys (these are usually all too easily manipulated relatives) indeed have their own agenda and have no interest in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored.

Hello, I'm new to this thread but I think I may belong here!

A bit of background, when I was growing up my mum was married to an alcoholic. He was a deeply unpleasant person and I never liked him. My mum and dad split when I was 3 and I saw my dad on weekends until he moved to the opposite side of the country with his new partner when I was about 7/8. I then only saw him once per month ish and I felt quite excluded from his 'new family'. He was always kind and lovely to me and I never understood why my mum left him only to marry an absolute c@*# a few years later.

Anyway, my mum's husband being an alcoholic meant that there were... Incidents. The worst being that when I was about 14 he climbed in to my bed whilst drunk. I pushed him out on to the floor and he got up and left the room. I was upset and woke my mum up to tell her what happened. The next day she made him apologise to me but when he did he had this horrible grin on his face. He would also come in the bathroom while I was in the bath or shower by unlocking the door from the outside. There was also violence, eg. smashed glasses, windows, mirrors. Arguments fairly often. I remember hiding in the bathroom with my younger brother and sister. He also pissed in the kitchen bin while drunk once or twice. They are divorced now. They got divorced just before I left for uni. So for almost my entire childhood I was forced to live with this man, who I hated. When I've tried to talk to her about how he affected me her response was 'shit happens' and 'people are worse off that you'.

It seems my mum is turning out to be quite unpleasant too. She also drinks too much (has to always have wine every night without fail). She referred to something of a personal nature as 'gross' recently and called me 'boring' when I was trying to explain that I'd not had much desire to go out lately because I was feeling quite down. She always criticises my parenting, my choices, my appearance, my activities. Everything I do, basically. If I try and explain that there's something amiss health wise, she tell me I'm "just anxious" or say "it's not that, it's this". Only for me to go to the gp and have them confirm my suspicions. Her opinion trumps that of medical professionals apparently!

She's also recently lost it with one of my dc so I've really cut back on the contact she has with them. Another time we were on holiday and my Dd2 had a uti. She was crying in pain and weeing every 5 seconds. My mum said 'she's just putting it on'. I couldn't drive at the time for medical reasons and she refused to take us to the Dr's. We ended up in A&E the next day. I really don't understand why she has to deny things that are blatantly obvious and happening right in front of her.

She actively avoids helping me out with anything and yet dotes on my niece and sister. They seem to be her priority whereas me and my dc are an inconvenience. I'm a single parent now and she spent ages encouraging me to leave my ex (which was the right thing to do) but now refuses to help me and the dc out with anything. If she does ever come round or help out then she always has to leave quickly to do something for my niece/sister.

My sister has fallen out with her numerous times whereas I'm less inclined towards conflict. I can't cope with conflict at all. I don't understand why my mum is like this. I'm also terrified that I've perhaps picked up some of her shitty behaviours and damaged my own dc but I'm really trying hard to not be like her. All this has affected my own relationships as well - as in I made terrible choices partner wise. I'm having cbt for anxiety at the moment but then after that I'll be having counselling to try and make sense of everything.

This has become a very long post, thank you if you've read this far.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Thank you, I'm definitely ignoring her. However I think it's likely my "mother" is not far off dying and this is why she's calling me. But they had so long to deal with things and didn't, this situation is not of my making. I spoke to my flying monkey aunt months ago, and as you say, she had absolutely no interest in hearing what I had to say.

I think the stress and pressure I'm feeling is because I expect the aftermath of her passing is going to create a lot of unpleasantness, even if relatively short-term. And this when I'm just coming to terms with realising that the family I thought I had didn't exist and never cared for me as an individual. As soon as I "misbehaved" I was cast out without any concern for me which was a fairly shocking experience!

@CreatingHavoc Sympathies. My "father" was alcoholic too. And my "mother" got all the sympathy because "she had a terrible time with her husband". No recognition, ever, of the effect on the children. And as it happens, she is a narcissistic bitch, but covert, so people on the outside never saw.
Your mother sounds dreadfully toxic too. I have only realised how bad mine is in recent years. My life, and my children's lives would have been so much happier if I had walked away 20+ years ago. I would urge you to consider ceasing all contact with these people who bring nothing but poison into your familiy's life.