November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

neverhaveto

That's very much your FOG talking and FOG needs to be addressed in your therapy sessions. Have you read and or otherwise looked at the Out of the FOG website?

Dealing with toxic people takes an enormous amount of energy. You don’t have to step up to every battle you’re called to. For many toxic people, conflict is the only way they can connect. It’s the way they feel alive, noticed and important. Save your energy for the people who matter.

The reason that toxic people are often in crisis is because they are masterful at creating them. It’s what they do – draw breath and create drama. You’ll be called on at any sign of a crisis for sympathy, attention and support, but you don’t have to run to their side. Teach them that you won’t be a part of the pity party by being unemotional, inattentive, and indifferent to the crisis. Don’t ask questions and don’t offer help. It might feel bad because it’s not your normal way, but remember that you’re not dealing with a normal person.

You can’t reason with toxic people – you just can’t. That’s one of the things that makes them toxic. Decide where you stand, and then stand strong. You don’t need to do any more than that. They will try to make you bend, flex and break at the seams. Because you have an open heart, the thought that someone might misunderstand you, disapprove of you or dislike you might get to you, but remember that you’re not dealing with someone who is motivated by what’s good for you or your relationship. It’s always about them and it always will be.

Be tired here of being the last person who matters.
Decide that sometimes you’re going to make it about you. It’s what you deserve.
Toxic people will have you bending over backwards and tied with a barbed wire ribbon to keep you there. What will keep you stuck is playing over and over in your head the vastness of their screwed up behaviour. It will keep you angry, sad and disempowered. If you have to make a decision that you’d rather not make, focus on the mess that’s it’s cleaning up, not the person who is making your life hell. Don’t focus on their negative behaviour – there’s just too much there to focus on and it will never make sense to you anyway.

Many people have abusive and not ideal childhoods for all sorts of reasons but choose as parents to break the cycle of abuse by not repeating the abusive treatment meted out to them children. Your mother had a choice when it came to you and she chose you to receive similar abusive treatment. Her parents were abusive as well but its not a hall pass for her to have done the same to you. You certainly do not have to learn how to be around her because you do not owe her anything, let alone a relationship. Its not possible to have a relationship with someone as abusive as your mother is anyway.

Would you have tolerated what your mother did from a friend, unlikely and your mother is no different. You will need to continue to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. People like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions so self preservation from being further abused here is necessary. You are saying no to being further abused. LC was not working out and that often leads to NC.

Thanks @Thelnebriati i will get stuck into those resources
its funny you mention contact…. I went LC to the latter end of last year and it was noted.
I left WhatsApp groups and did some unfollowing, and it went down very badly.

Hi Monkey

re your comment:

"My friend, who's a solicitor, suggested putting a POA in place. It's so we can make decisions LIKE PUTTING HER IN A SECURE UNIT. The decisions are taken practically every day for her; health, money etc. She is like a child. We have access to all the relevant documentation. We need to formalise decision making. It's this or social services making decisions for her. I totally agree about it sometimes being a minefield, but my friend is good at this type of thing, despite it not being his specialist area, he's intellectual property. He's much less emotionally fraught about it and is giving us the pros and cons and sign posting us. My mum has one and a living will because she's not a self-obsessed nightmare".

With all due respect to your friend this is indeed not his area of expertise and as I've mentioned power of attorney documents and dysfunctional families are a toxic mess of a mix. Even in emotionally healthy families they are not without their difficulties (bank staff not understanding them for instance due to lack of training). I would urge MM not to sign such a document without at least seeking advice from the likes of a Solicitor who has great knowledge about such documents beforehand. The Court of Protection is also worth contacting here if you have questions.

I would not think that the Hag would ever think about having such a document in place anyway given how disordered of thinking she is. She would have to set up the Power of Attorney and given how she is I doubt very much that one would ever be presented. I would allow SS to make decisions for her going forward because the two of you will need to inform them that the relationship between you two and she has broken down therefore you're both unable to do any of her care needs. I would also think she would not go into a secure unit as such are not used for caring for personality disordered elderly people. It would not surprise me either if the Hag was to die intestate ie without a will so leaving behind another set of problems for you to deal with.

Your mother is indeed an ideal person to set up a Power of Attorney document primarily because she is not a toxic nightmare.

I can confirm banks do not seem to understand POAs at all

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat for taking time to read my post and for giving me some clarity in my confused state! I really value your support (and the support of people on this thread) and wise words! I somehow feel much better after reading your post and having some validation of my feelings! Thank you!

I think getting to a place of understanding and accepting that your parents also had a very bleak and abusive childhood is helpful. It’s important to unravel that as you have done in therapy. It helps you see life in shades of grey rather than black and white which allows a more compassionate assessment of your parents. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you change your decisions / behaviour about how you choose to engage with them - but it might dissipate the anger and rage which you felt which is a healthier internal biological state for you to be in.

Their own childhood “may explain it, but doesn’t excuse it” - they haven’t learnt to self regulate - it’s emotionally immature to react.

To be holding rage, hate and anger is really bad for your mental and physical health. A state of indifference is the aim - whatever they do should not shock but be expected.

Drop the rope. Emotionally protect yourself. Communicate to people your boundaries, deadlines and consequences - and then act on them. If anyone is less than kind, polite and respectful then walk away with dignity.

@User45378754 very true - both of mine had grim upbringings. It seemed to create a narrative of ‘life’s hard for everyone not just you.

Morning, I hope it’s ok to jump in, I’ve dipped in and out of this thread over the years and find the experiences on here so familiar.

@MonkeyfromManchester I’m sorry to hear Mr Monkey is feeling the pressure and it’s leaking into your home, that’s very hard. Even when you try to stay away from the person causing the upset it can still get to you and into your home through other means. I have this often with DH, unfortunately we both come from very toxic families who operate in different ways. It’s exhausting to deal with.

@AttilaTheMeerkat your words as always are so wise and helpful to read, they really resonate.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand your comments about being a “fixer” completely spoke to me. This is me, the more I did, the more I was expected to do. I have stepped back and this was not well received at all but they all have to deal with it.

Does anyone feel like the way they are treated by or seen by their FOO spreads into the rest of your life? I seem to be expected to be the “fixer” in friendships. I also took on a lot of responsibility for the feelings of those around me as a child, I am almost overly empathetic and if someone around me is upset or feeling turmoil I seem to take that on. I think maybe because as a child I was often made to feel other peoples’ feelings were my “fault”. Being told “you’ve made me angry” “you’ve made him upset” etc. my main carer and resident parent would also regularly ignore me if I had “done something wrong” I often had no idea what I was meant to have done so when I asked would be told “you know what you’ve done” or continue to be ignored.

I feel like I had this sign over my head that has a set of instructions for how people should treat me as if seems to be a repeated pattern in my life. I have “friends” who expect me to be there for them, comfort them and listen to them but never check on me. Even if they do decide to ask how I am, of I am honest and share what might be going on for me they don’t seem interested or check if I’m ok but I am expected to check on them.

How have I gone through life like this? It really hurts. I do have a couple of really good friends who I am very grateful for, though it’s hard when I meet
people, think they are a friend and more often than not the above scenario eventually unfolds and I need to remove myself from it.

There has been a lot going on this week, I spent all day yesterday close to tears, the emotional weight seems to be really heavy. People share a lot with me, I think because I am quite an understanding person and being empathetic I think I’m a good listener. But what some people don’t realise is that I take this all on, it stays with me. I’m starting to feel like an emotional dumping ground and feel a bit invisible too, like no one sees me as a person with feelings or having my own stuff to deal with.

I’m sorry for the lengthy post, I really need to get this out to people who understand. Aside from a couple of people I really don’t feel seen and having dealt with this my whole life I’m feeling quite triggered this week like I’ve been taken back in time.

You are describing me. I think we carry an energetic field around with us which attracts or repels certain people. For people who have unheated wounds and trauma, this attracted those who will mirror our own issues or mirror the behaviour of those who hurt us. I am a fixer too. I think in the last few years I have completely run out of energy to fix others. I’m burnt out. Having some therapy and learning about the drama triangle helped me. I realised what dynamics were at play.

I don’t find it works to keep helping others in the forlorn hope that our needs will one day be attended to. Looking after ourselves and our own needs should come first. It’s hard to do when you’ve been brought up to feel you don’t matter and aren’t important or valued.

@User45378754 I absolutely honor everything you have said. There is profound wisdom here.

But I also believe our anger, when we own it, can be deeply healing. It's one of the essential stages of grief and recovery. I think repressing our anger is much more dangerous for our health and well-being. We don't want to get stuck in feelings of hate or vengeance. We want to let go and move on. But I believe owning our anger is an essential stepping stone to our destination of healing and moving on.

I 100% agree with you.

Anger (like all our emotions) is our internal smoke alarm to information in our environment. We need to recognize it, evaluate it, process it and then act on it - so we have agency - whatever those actions might be.

Not hold it - it is just a destructive pollutant of cortisol and adrenaline in our minds and bodies that then distorts our perception of everything else in our lives.

Its exhausting. We need at some point to put it down for relief to move on .

So much has happened in the last week, but has culminated in me finally going NC with my parents.
Thursday a week ago , my mum rang , having realised that I was not going to just sweep things under the carpet this time - her version of forgive and forget , she started interrogating me on wanting the detail of the sexual assault I experienced as a child from the family friend . It was a bullying experience with her telling me finally before I put the phone down that “there were degrees of sexual abuse “

The next day I got another message from my father asking what it would take to get back to where we had been .

Having finally got through to NAPAC the evening before after that phone call , I decided to write a long email to them setting out why I had been hurt by my Dad originally and then subsequently by my mum . I did say in that email that the assault I had experienced was in my view serious enough to warrant a custodial sentence if convicted by the courts.

It was a hard email to write and would no doubt been hard reading too , nevertheless I hoped they would recognise the hurt and apologise or maybe just change their behaviour slightly .

Not a hope .
First there was radio silence from both of them . When I rang them breaking the silence we arranged to speak a few days later . My dad did say that they were reeling at the email and hadn’t felt like speaking . I hoped that this meant they were still processing it and there was hope of a reconciliation.

We finally spoke yesterday. My Dad said that the most they were prepared to do was “nothing” He accused me of abusing them over the last 3 years ( it’s true, I finally had the courage to stand up to their most unreasonable behaviours usually by removing myself from it - putting the phone down or leaving ) that they were very hurt by my email . Basically everything was my fault but they were prepared to let bygones be bygones. He was aggressive in his tone and threatening. Twice suggesting that what I wanted was to shout about the abuse and the effect that might have on the abuser!s family. ( and seem to imply that they should do the telling) I don’t . Them not mentioning him and maybe adjusting their contact with him to minimal would be a start and probably all I was looking for.

I am realising that my father is just a bully when he doesn’t get his way. My mum is both an appeaser and manipulator with her silent treatment. Both are controllers . Both value material gifts rather than emotional “giving”.

The final straw has been broken on the camel’s back .

Anotherporkypie 💐 Your boundaries are not abusive, you did not abuse your parents.
IDK if you've heard of 'enmeshment', but enmeshed parents don't see you as an individual, but as a part of themselves.

Thank you @BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood I think you are right on the money! We definitely attract certain types! And you are correct, self care has to come
first! I have been trying to implement this, though it’s amazing how strong old patterns are and I often need to fight against them. Thank you so much for responding. I’m sorry you experience the same but am grateful to know I’m not alone.

@briarhill @User45378754 the anger is definitely there for a reason! And the reasons definitely don’t excuse the behaviour!

@Anotherporkypie much love to you, sounds like they are being very manipulative! Not you!

@Anotherporkypie - one of the hardest things that I found I had to accept from my narcissistic parents, was that:

1. They will never accept how you feel and your version of events
2. They will never ever say sorry, and
3. They will in fact turn the tables and make you out to be the 'abuser' or unreasonable or unhinged, and that they are the victims that have been hurt by your behaviour.

It's definitely not you and I am so sorry that they have dismissed and minimised your horrific past experiences. Any loving parent would want to be there for you, wrap you in love and comfort and offer you all the support you need. I read a previous post that said that with a narc Mum, they have finally realised that they don't miss their Mum, they miss a Mum.

My mother is now pretending everything is great, ignoring the nasty cruel things she said to me on Friday, and sending me photos of her holiday. It’s all mind games….

It has been 9 months of NC with my parents and DSis. I feel stronger without their negative influence and toxicity.

However, today my Mum contacted DH. She wanted to come over and visit and told him that is a shame that I don't want to talk to her especially as she is grieving my DS and thinks about him everyday too.

I asked DH if she apologised for her disgraceful behaviour when my DS was in intensive care and whether she acknowledged that she prematurely told everyone she knew that my DS had died before he actually did (which had the impact of me receiving condolence messages and phone calls from random nobodies whilst my DS was still fighting for his life), and whether she showed any remorse or acknowledgement for not being there for us and not being there for us at all following my DS's death. Of course, the answer was 'No'. DH said she just was fixated that I refuse to engage with them all. She also told him that she had tried to come to our house (unannounced as was usual before), but had forgotten where we lived. So she was also demanding our address. DH said that he thinks that she has forgotten everything and doesn't know that I am waiting for an apology and forthem to acknowledge the hurt they have caused. I reminded him that I have not only verbally told her and DSis how I felt and what I wanted, but also sent a text message shortly before I went NC. I've advised DH to block my Mum's number from now on and on no account is he to allow her into our house. DH is feeling very caught in this and he hates confrontation at the best of times. I get the feeling my Mum is trying to hoover him in and use him as a flying monkey too.

Is this the right approach? What is your take on this ?

My Fragility

💐. Am sorry they are but virtual ones. Your mother is not worthy of the word mother, she is a truly despicable narcissistic human being who just like piling it on.

Your approach is the correct one. Your mother has attempted here to use your husband as the weak link in the chain here seeing as she cannot access you readily. This was a deliberate move. It is a pity he agreed to meet her at all but such types are very manipulative and can sway people. She has accordingly used him for her own ends and used his dislike of confrontation against both him and you.

He must stand firm against your mother now and support you in this and must not allow himself to be contacted by her further. His own inertia too when it comes to your mother hurts him as much as you. If your mother is a narcissist in terms of personality it is not possible to have a relationship with someone like this, someone this disordered of thinking.

People like your mother will never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Your h needs to be aware of this and needs to read Toxic In-laws by Susan Forward.

Jesus h christ @MyFragility - that's awful, and typical "ramping up" behaviour. I agree with everything @AttilaTheMeerkat says and that you are doing the right thing. Cut her off. Tell DH so it's really clear and simple and he will hopefully understand that this isn't a confrontational thing. You and your DH are a team, and are presenting a united front.

Going NC really does set the cat amongst the pigeons with the toxic people. They hate it and will try anything to restore their preferred status quo. Stand strong and know that your life is better without them.

Absolutely horrific.

There is no forgiving or moving on from that.

This is someone with ZERO respect for anyone else’s boundaries.

You have gone NC but she isn’t accepting that. It’s like you’ve locked the front door and she has gone round the back and climbed in the kitchen window.

She will now likely fake an illness or emergency and soft soap your DH to respond.

He has already engaged too much and fallen for her manipulation.

I would insist he blocks her for your MH and emotional well-being.

But she will keep on trying.

So sorry for what you have endured. I am assuming that you are coming up to an anniversary which will be very raw and intense for you and your DH. Concentrate on your own grief and emotional protection now - don’t let her anywhere near you for years and years if ever.

Thanks @MyFragility

re number 3 . At one point on Saturday I commented that I was upset about what my mum had said.
My Dad replied that she was defending him! What does he need defending from???
Yes he was definitely making me out to be the abusing toxic one . Oh he certainly turned the tables onto me.

@Sicario is right . Going NC will set the cat among the pigeons . Mother’s Day approaches,I won’t be sending a card . They also want to use us as a stopping off point when visiting a friend soon. When they ask ( and pretend nothing has happened ) in several weeks time I will just say one word. No !

Strangely enough I don’t feel punished now about their silence , more a sense of relief . The last conversation I had with my Dad was the most telling .

Had a chat with a RL friend yesterday about what has happened . It helped to get affirmation from her too. Scary it has taken nearly 6 decades for me to see my parents as they really are.

"You have gone NC but she isn’t accepting that. It’s like you’ve locked the front door and she has gone round the back and climbed in the kitchen window."

I really like this analogy.

Can I ask a couple of question please?

For those who think/know they have a narcissistic parent or parents, do you worry that they have hardwired you to be like them and that you might also be a narcissist and damaging your own kids? I do.

When I read about narcissist traits in mothers, it always says “sees their children as an extension of themselves”. What does this mean? I’m worried I can’t pin down what it means and I don’t know if that itself has some significance.

thank you, and huge love to all who have posted on here.

Hi @Procrastatron I understand totally how you feel about the fear of turning into your narcissistic parent (although I don't have children so I don't have that worry)

I spent several years in therapy trying to untangle the thought/fear that underneath it all, at my core, I was the same as my mother and one day someone would see through my 'nice' facade and realise I'm poison.

The fact that you're worrying about it means you're not like your parent. Did your parent/s worry about damaging you? Probably not.

I did a lot of work over 2 lots of NHS CBT looking at what's thoughts, what's facts, is there evidence for my fears?

What really helps me when I'm having a wobble is to look at how I've acted that day. So did I listen to my loved ones, did I say anything rude or unkind, did I try to control anyone, was I aware of others feelings, did I slag anyone off or share private information, etc etc. Usually I haven't done any of those things, so I have escaped turning into my mother for another day 😊 it's easier to take it day by day, for me anyway.

Helloo

I posted a while ago, about my terrible mother, who amongst other things, teased me about being autistic without actually getting me diagnosed or any help, and let my brother beat the shit out of me several times a week.

I had lots of helpful and kind replies, although I do find out difficult to keep up with a high level of communication, I wanted to come back with a positive update...

I had my autism assessment yesterday, and I am autistic.

One of the ladies who did my assessment said they were worried to tell me that I was autistic, in case I heard my mother's voice in that and it felt negative.

Actually I feel really empowered. This is MY diagnosis. I did all the prep and paperwork and arrangements myself. I identified I had a difficulty and I sought the correct support and official diagnosis from a clinical psychologist and an occupational therapist and now I can use that information to make my own life better.

Nothing to do with Her. She doesn't get to decide who I am and tease me about it for 30 years.

The assessors also said they took time deciding if I was autistic, because they were thinking about whether my very difficult family situation had caused my traits. Which was really validating. They also asked if my mother thought I was autistic why hadn't she got me help. Very satisfying somehow, when the room went silent and raised eyebrowy when I said no, she worked at an NHS centre for children with additional needs, including the team that diagnosed autism, and did nothing.

What a relief. I feel great today.

And I'm wishing that you can all experience the feeling of a small, or large victory, over your own terrible parents 💖