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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/10/2022 17:16

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

OP posts:
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7
AttilaTheMeerkat · 03/02/2023 08:13

Fluffygoon

Would not attend this family's meal under any circumstances. These people's actions have already caused you to be needing therapy so its a hard no from me. You still get the odd dubious comment from MIL so why would you at all entertain the idea?. Deal with any and all residual fear, obligation and guilt you may still have here through therapy.

You would not have tolerated this from a friend, relations are no different.

OP posts:
LifeIsAJourney · 03/02/2023 10:51

I am hoping to find people who have had similar experiences here, who might point me in the right direction.

I witnessed very regular domestic violence between my parents when I was a child and as an adult (the last time was when I lived with them for a month after I'd given birth, at the age of 33). They used to have very regular furious arguments laced with verbal abuse towards each other and each other's family members, sometimes it would end up with him hitting her like a deranged person. My earliest childhood memory was my dad smashing a mirror. I always lived in fear at home, and my relationship with my mum was never good. She was a very cold mum, she also admitted to my dad that she hated being a mum. She is now quite a different person and loves her grandchildren.

However, now that I am a mum, memories of what I witnessed as a child are really really affecting me. It somehow makes more sense to me now, I just don't understand how they could have allowed that to continue, and I couldn't imagine subjecting my own children to that at all. I've cried, A LOT, over this. Having children has totally opened a floodgate. I am a very angry person. I no longer see or speak to my dad. I do see my mum, but I get very snappy with her. I feel very guilty about this, but I just can't bring myself to be warm towards my mum. The foundation of a mother-daughter relationship is just not there. I can't even bring myself to call her "mum". Maybe that makes me a bad person, I don't know.

I really want to go and speak to a therapist about this. I have been to therapy sessions before, but could never bring myself to talk about the domestic violence, it's like a dirty secret that I carry around with me, and I am too ashamed to tell anyone about it. However I feel I've really reached a point where I need to offload and move on somehow. All the anger I carry also does not help with motherhood and setting a good example for my children.

Apologies for this long post, any pointers re therapists (SE London area), books, websites, would be helpful.

Thank you

winningeasy · 03/02/2023 11:23

@LifeIsAJourney you've come to the right place and are amongst people who have deep empathy for your situation.

Your situation sounds similar to mine. My dad was abusive narc who bullied our whole family. Some physically but mostly mentally and emotionally. Both were extremely emotionally neglectful, too caught up in their own pain and misery no doubt to offer any support, guidance, encouragement or validation. As a result my self esteem was in the toilet for lost my adult life. Pretty sure my mum had affairs as she left me a lone a lot when I was very young, she worked from home. My mum eventually left once i had gone to uni after having an affair with another man. She moved quite far away and left me and my brother to deal with my father.
I stayed in contact with my dad for a further 10 years but have been mostly NC for last 5, apart from him coming to my wedding and be incredibly rude to me. My mum is a deeply unpleasant woman, extremely negative, never had any friendships, she was horrible to me when I was growing up and did nothing to build a bond with me. She did the basics you know - got me my first bra, got me some sanitary towels when I started my period and put a dinner on the table. Clearly did not enjoy being a mum. Literally that was it and that was all out of obligation not love. In the last decade or so she has softened slightly and there's a sense she wants to make it up. But she still says horrible comments and is fairly toxic to be around when I do see her. Drinks too much and has health problems, all she talks about is her health issues. Was horrible to me at my wedding and I prob realised then that there wasn't the bond there that we should have and that it wasn't my fault. That was hers to nurture.
Since then I had set clear boundaries, I don't want her staying over my house and I am not going to go out of my way to see her. I am not going to make unreciprocated effort to get her thoughtful gifts when she's never done that for me or my daughter.
I have had a lot of revelations since having a baby and getting married. I can't see how you could be treat your children how they treated us. I had so much anger for the last 6 months. It does get better especially when you name it. I have also been doing some inner child work and trying to love that little girl in me who was so lonely and neglected.

The abuse you witnessed and experienced is nothing to feel ashamed about. Do you have a partner or best friend you can open up to? Definitely speak to a therapist, speaking about what happened alleviates shame. During this conversations you can discuss coping strategies with your mum. I am very low contact with my mum, she can come see her grand child if she wishes but made it clear she has to stay in a hotel (which angers her! Narcs hate boundaries - currently not speaking because of this) and I'm just going to see send her a card/flowers for bday / chocs/booze for Xmas.
We never spend Xmas together so that's not an issue, she is too miserable to celebrate it.
I'm pregnant again and haven't told her.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 03/02/2023 15:03

What happened to you is not your fault in any way. This is all on your parents here. Both failed you to protect you from the abuse that was happening within the home and I personally would not want to call your mother a mum either.

Abuse thrives on secrecy and you need to get this out in the open. I would consider contacting NAPAC as they could be helpful to you. A link for them is here napac.org.uk/

I would also try and find a BACP registered therapist to work with; interview such people carefully and at length before choosing any particular one. You need to find someone who will fit it with your approach.

OP posts:
DuchessOfEndor · 03/02/2023 15:05

Thank you all for your replies. Terrible gifts have definitely been a theme since childhood. I spent every Christmas and birthday hoping my gratitude act would be believable enough that I didn't get hit.

Would you say that a narc is capable of personalized and thoughtful gifts but just not toward the scapegoat? Because she gave my son new gifts that were clearly chosen based on his interests and likes.

Different topic: now that I have control, which I took by telling the truth about our parents growing up. I am being shut out by 2 out of 3 siblings. My siblings are all on board with the narrative that I'm lashing out and causing problems where none exist. I guess if they allow any of what I say to be truth, their whole façade goes tumbling down.

Thelnebriati · 04/02/2023 01:38

Would you say that a narc is capable of personalized and thoughtful gifts but just not toward the scapegoat?

Well ime they study people, in order to retain a sense of control. So yes they can be thoughtful towards people who are in their favour; but remember its all a performance, and their favour can be withdrawn as a punishment.

Carpetmonkey · 05/02/2023 16:30

Just met up with sister, brother and our mother.

About 3 years ago myself and my siblings were the best of friends. I had the most contact with our dm, and had been growing increasingly resentful, especially after my 2nd and 3rd babies who are now aged 2 and 3 years old, probably because being with dm was so draining.

Occasionally she would be lovely and great with the kids but more often than not she would be demanding (hassling/ guilting to move in with me when we were about to set up home), make snarky snidey comments, shame/ embarrass me in front of my husband/ friends (well, try to), and basically be completely unempathic if I ever had an issue in my life that made me feel stressed or sad. Don't have too many childhood memories, there was a lot of fear/ living on egg shells due to df MH issues/ Personality disorder, I was very anxious/ clingy to my dm. As I got into double digits alcohol and drug abuse became a feature too, it was pretty miserable at times.

Fast forward to today. I suppose I started to lay boundaries, I've had lots of therapy etc. Where once I was a central figure in the wider family- hosting parties, joining on holidays, festive arrangements etc I feel I've been made an outsider. Even my siblings no longer make contact with me, unless it's through dm. I contact them now and then and make arrangements from time to time. It's odd and painful as we were a great friendship group. As I mentioned before I have younger kids and they do not as their kids are grown up so I don't think that helps my cause.

Feel very much like when I started saying no to dm my siblings allied to her even though there wasn't ever any falling out/ unpleasantness. The worse thing has been the photos they put on family chats of them all having a lovely time at family events/ holidays I wasn't invited to or didn't even know were happening where once upon a time I would have been included. The only times I've said it's hurt me they have justified the situation because they assumed I wouldn't want to go.

We just had a get together which as usual brings up all my insecurities as they chat away about significant life events/ family gossip, stuff I have no knowledge of anymore.

It all feels surreal and strained and I feel like I've become a cold fish where once I was bubbly and warm in their company.

And the most aggravating part is I'm studying mental health and working in the field of wellbeing, so not only do I feel like an alien in my own family/ have lost my sisterly friendship group I then doubt how far I've come in my healing and feel like I should jack that, along with my aspirations in the field of wellbeing, in.

Can anyone relate?

BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood · 05/02/2023 16:38

This sounds exactly like my family, except for the fact that there was never a great friendship group in the first place. It’s always been toxic and my siblings have always been favoured over me. It’s absolutely horrible, I really sympathise. They don’t deserve you. I would distance myself and concentrate on friendships instead. I know how much it hurts though.

Carpetmonkey · 05/02/2023 18:13

Thanks @BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood
It is painful, I'm sorry you've had to put up with this for do long.

I think for me it's a bit like grieving what I once had. I think myself and my siblings have all behaved toxically at times and the only way I can I can be the best version of myself is by keeping them all at arm's length. From that pov I guess I brought it all on myself a bit.

Great idea about the friendships, I admit don't have many because I already had a group of friends who I did everything with and put above everyone else (my siblings) but, the good thing is the space had freed up time and energy and I have started to make some lovely friends.

winningeasy · 05/02/2023 20:42

@Carpetmonkey your situation really resonates with my own. It seems like you're on a healing journey which has incorporated a lot of self enquiry and you're now much more aware and self aware than your family. Unfortunately the path to self love means leaving some people behind. They all seem very emeshed and I am sure their identities are validated by each other. The reality is it's probably comfortably working for them right now, but it no longer works for you. Please don't doubt yourself re mental health and wellness, you are creating healthy distance and boundaries. It's a positive thing.

You no longer need their fire to keep you warm.

Take care and be proud of yourself. Taking yourself out of a toxic micro cult is not easy, but you've obviously made a nice self sufficient life for yourself with your own family ❤️

winningeasy · 05/02/2023 21:08

Thought this might mean something to some of you

--

The so-called black sheep of the family are, in fact, hunters born of paths of liberation into the family tree.
The members of a tree who do not conform to the norms or traditions of the family system, those who since childhood have constantly sought to revolutionise beliefs, going against the paths marked by family traditions, those criticised, judged and even rejected, these are usually called to free the tree of repetitive stories that frustrate entire generations.
The black sheep, those who do not adapt, those who cry rebelliously, play a basic role within each family system, they repair, pick up and create new and unfold branches in the family tree.
Thanks to these members, our trees renew their roots. Its rebellion is fertile soil, its madness is water that nourishes, its stubbornness is new air, its passion is fire that re-ignites the light of the heart of the ancestors.
Uncountable repressed desires, unfulfilled dreams, the frustrated talents of our ancestors are manifested in the rebelliousness of these black sheep seeking fulfilment. The genealogical tree, by inertia will want to continue to maintain the castrating and toxic course of its trunk, which makes the task of our sheep a difficult and conflicting work.
However, who would bring new flowers to our tree if it were not for them? Who would create new branches? Without them, the unfulfilled dreams of those who support the tree generations ago would die buried beneath their own roots.
Let no one cause you to doubt, take care of your rarity as the most precious flower of your tree.
You are the dream of all your ancestors.

  • Bert Hellinger
winningeasy · 05/02/2023 21:09

*The Black Sheep

Carpetmonkey · 05/02/2023 21:47

@winningeasy thank you for your kind words. All really resonates with me. I can certainly relate the black sheep!!! :)

MonkeyfromManchester · 08/02/2023 10:09

I'll be back more fully after dropping a parcel off.

The fucking Hag and her hideous legacy on her family.

Mr Monkey is really depressed. He's hidden it, but it came out last Friday when we had a day off and went out.

He's quiet all the time or grouchy. It's unbearable. He can go back to his counsellor who helped him immeasurably - and he brought it up - but

‘Don’t go on about me going back”

Lost it this morning over some stupid thing.

Heartily sick of the fucking selfish nasty bitch.

He's putting off things like talking to social workers and getting power of attorney. He just needs to fucking sort it out with his stupid fucking battered into submission brother Slave Son. I want social workers to assess her and put her onto a rock in the Atlantic. I never want to see her EVER again.

Why doesn't she fucking die? She's 86 in March. She brings NOTHING but misery.

I think he needs to go no contact - like me - but, ultimately, he needs to make that decision.

Aaaaaaaaagh.

briarhill · 08/02/2023 12:09

@MonkeyfromManchester , I'm sorry it's so hard. Wishing you and MM so much support and clarity.

MonkeyfromManchester · 08/02/2023 12:29

@briarhill thank you. And now it’s affected my mood. I had a really positive day yesterday. Really good fun with a friend and really productive day freelancing away. Now plunged into misery so eating carbs in the local cafe.

she is so, so nasty and wonders why she’s lonely. Mr Monkey is organising a family meal for his wider family. Not going. I really like all of them, but I can’t spend any time with her.

melodyshetland · 08/02/2023 13:16

AttilaTheMeerkat · 01/02/2023 14:16

Welcome melodyshetland

So sorry to read what happened to you; the abuse you suffered then was not your fault in any way.

I would maintain you are all far better off without these people in your day to day lives. If your other relatives all too readily believed your mother's version of events without wanting to hear your side of things they are really not worth bothering about.

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat Flowers

I think I know that or should know that but it still means a lot to hear and have it reinforced.

I hear that my sister has made public Facebook posts in recent years all about 'my lovely mum' which rankles a bit, though she was never on the receiving end of abuse but witnessed it. I suspect I might be some sort of scapegoat for them (if I have the terms correct) as im estranged from them all, but I think it's better not to to dwell on what they might have been saying or doing. It doesn't matter as I shan't ever see them again

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/02/2023 14:42

Monkey and MM

I would not sign such a document if presented by the Hag to become her attorney under any circumstances. That document can be problematic enough as it is for emotionally healthy family members to deal with and understand the full implications of, in dysfunctional families like Monkey Man's family of origin it is a real recipe for disaster.

MM this part of my reply is primarily for you:
Dealing with toxic people takes an enormous amount of energy. You don’t have to step up to every battle you’re called to. For many toxic people, conflict is the only way they can connect. It’s the way they feel alive, noticed and important. Save your energy for the people who matter.

The reason that toxic people are often in crisis is because they are masterful at creating them. It’s what they do – draw breath and create drama. You’ll be called on at any sign of a crisis for sympathy, attention and support, but you don’t have to run to their side. Teach them that you won’t be a part of the pity party by being unemotional, inattentive, and indifferent to the crisis. Don’t ask questions and don’t offer help. It might feel bad because it’s not your normal way, but remember that you’re not dealing with a normal person.

You can’t reason with toxic people – you just can’t. That’s one of the things that makes them toxic. Decide where you stand, and then stand strong. You don’t need to do any more than that. They will try to make you bend, flex and break at the seams. Because you have an open heart, the thought that someone might misunderstand you, disapprove of you or dislike you might get to you, but remember that you’re not dealing with someone who is motivated by what’s good for you or your relationship. It’s always about them and it always will be. Decide that sometimes you’re going to make it about you. It’s what you deserve.

Toxic people will have you bending over backwards and tied with a barbed wire ribbon to keep you there. What will keep you stuck is playing over and over in your head the vastness of their screwed up behaviour. It will keep you angry, sad and disempowered. If you have to make a decision that you’d rather not make, focus on the mess that’s it’s cleaning up, not the person who is making your life hell. Don’t focus on their negative behaviour – there’s just too much there to focus on and it will never make sense to you anyway.

Surround yourself with people like your partner Monkey here who will give as much as you do. You might not have as much freedom in certain parts of your life to decide who’s in and who’s out but when it comes to the ones you open your heart to, you absolutely have the choice. Choose wisely and don’t be afraid to let them know what they mean to you.

There is a pattern many toxic people follow. First they’re charming. This is when they’ll get you. They’ll be attentive, loving and impressive – but all of it will be to get you into position. Next, when they have your trust you’ll start to see the cracks. There will be mounting demands and a rising pull on your emotional resources. Then there will be the crisis – the test. You’ll feel stuck – whether or not you give them what they want, you’ll feel compromised. Finally, you’ll do what they want – because you don’t want to be ‘unreasonable’ or cause more drama – and then they’re back to charming you and giving you just enough of what you need to make you stay. The problem is that this never lasts for long and always comes at a cost. Be aware of the cycle and use it to build your boundaries on an even more solid foundation.

You can’t reason with toxic people – you just can’t. That’s one of the things that makes them toxic. Decide where you stand, and then stand strong. You don’t need to do any more than that. They will try to make you bend, flex and break at the seams. Because you have an open heart, the thought that someone might misunderstand you, disapprove of you or dislike you might get to you, but remember that you’re not dealing with someone who is motivated by what’s good for you or your relationship. It’s always about them and it always will be. Decide that sometimes you’re going to make it about you. It’s what you deserve.

Don’t look for their approval or their appreciation – you won’t get it unless it comes with conditions, all of which will dampen you. You’ll constantly feel drained because they’ll draw on your open heart, your emotional generosity, your reasonableness, your compassion and your humanity – and they will give absolutely nothing back. Don’t give any more than that in the hope of getting something back. There will never be any more than minimal, and even that will come with conditions. Whatever you do, know why you’re doing what you’re doing and make sure the reasons are good enough.

OP posts:
LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand · 08/02/2023 15:02

Attila I know your post was mainly for Monkey but some of what you say resonated so much. I was for years the 'family fixer' and all the drama landed on me to sort. Mum used to phone me, drunk, in the middle of the night. My brother lives with her and I was working but it was me who had to deal with her. My brother is a toxic mess who sounds like MM slave brother/son. Gradually I withdrew and now I help with nothing. The more I did, the more I was expected to do. If it wasn't me, it was my poor uncle. It is so freeing to not have that dead weight round my neck.

MonkeyfromManchester · 08/02/2023 18:34

@AttilaTheMeerkat thanks, that's a brilliant post. So much reasonates with me. Thank God, he knows all about her games and her sick in the head behaviour. The counsellor was brilliant. He needs a top up.

My friend, who's a solicitor, suggested putting a POA in place. It's so we can make decisions LIKE PUTTING HER IN A SECURE UNIT. The decisions are taken practically every day for her; health, money etc. She is like a child. We have access to all the relevant documentation. We need to formalise decision making. It's this or social services making decisions for her. I totally agree about it sometimes being a minefield, but my friend is good at this type of thing, despite it not being his specialist area, he's intellectual property. He's much less emotionally fraught about it and is giving us the pros and cons and sign posting us. My mum has one and a living will because she's not a self-obssessed nightmare.

MonkeyfromManchester · 08/02/2023 18:36

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand that's exactly it. They drag you in and expect more and more. Awful, awful, AWFUL people. Like leeches.

LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand · 08/02/2023 18:44

Monkey leeches are exactly what they are! My brother pays for nothing, mum pays all the bills. He won't make any decisions. So when their bathroom and kitchen replacement went wrong, he sat back and expected mum, who is 88 and very deaf, to deal with Wilkes. Then got my uncle to deal with them. He then phoned me ten times in a row because they had no water. When I eventually called back, he was enraged that I hadn't picked up my phone right away. I happened to be out. And what the hell I could do about their lack of water from five miles away, I don't know. And if it still went wrong, it was my uncle's fault. The way he speaks to mum is appalling but he's the golden child so she puts up with it. Toxic Tim the leech

JustCheck · 11/02/2023 14:26

hi everyone
I have spent a long time reading this thread and others today… I think I need some support and also I have self referred for therapy. I had a complex upbringing with divorced parents, DV, stonewalling, I was groomed at 15 by a friend of my stepfather who was in his mid 20s, all with their blessing. I have realised that I have always
gone the extra mile with them both for praise, trying to feel loved, but they both speak unkindly, in particular my dad loves to gossip to the rest of the family about me behind my back. Recently he told a very cruel lie about me. I’ve had anxiety since I was a child, worrying about their reactions. Lately after another episode with each of them I am starting to think I don’t want to see them. I know I need help to unpack my childhood, but I’ve ran around and done everything for so long I have no idea how to even consider contact. I’ve even
sat here thinking I must be the problem

Thelnebriati · 11/02/2023 17:04

Hi JustCheck. Therapy will help you a lot, disentangling your life from them means you go through a period of upheaval and its good to have some support while you do that. Doing it bit by bit can sound like the easier option, but at some point they will notice you are no longer at their beck and call and kick off. Or you could go cold turkey. Both have their pros and cons.

Also, take assertiveness classes if you can find one, and read A Woman In Your Own Right by Anne Dickson. Practice your new skills in situations where the outcome doesn't matter until you feel more confident.
Read 'I'm OK, You're OK' by Thomas Harris and 'Games People Play' by Eric Berne, they explain the unhealthy family dynamic called The Karpman Drama Triangle and how to break free of it.
Read everything you can about dealing with narcissists, and FOG (fear, Obligation, Guilt). There are plenty of websites that offer advice.

neverhaveto · 11/02/2023 18:25

Interesting thing about therapy: I am on the 6-th session so far and if anything it makes me regretting going NC.

While unpicking my childhood and the troubled relationship with my DM I am made to see that her terrible childhood and emotional neglect from her own family made her the way she is. And as she is a survivor of her childhood and I am a survivor of mine with her - I need to learn not to react to her the way I did when I fled and learn how to be around her.

I still feel a lot of FOG and confusion though. 5-th month of NC and I ruminate on it daily in my head. I wish sometimes that I stayed LC or even shrug it off somehow...

Had anyone had the same feelings during therapy? So confused...

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