November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

For those who think/know they have a narcissistic parent or parents, do you worry that they have hardwired you to be like them and that you might also be a narcissist and damaging your own kids? I do.

Yes, I was terrified I would do something bad that everyone else but me knew was bad, and would harm them in some way. It took a lot of therapy to get past it and unpick my messed up childhood.

When I read about narcissist traits in mothers, it always says “sees their children as an extension of themselves”. What does this mean? I’m worried I can’t pin down what it means and I don’t know if that itself has some significance.

I don't think it has any significance, it can be very hard to empathise with some behaviours and that's because they are so out there, not because you unconsciously do them yourself.
If you google 'enmeshed families' there are some examples you can look at.
Imagine being personally offended and complaining they are selfish, haven't taken your feelings into account, have disappointed you and let you down. You wanted them to be a ballet dancer and instead of fulfilling your dream they chose to be a vet. Its not an act, they really do feel offended that their child has let them down.
That would be an example.

For those who think/know they have a narcissistic parent or parents, do you worry that they have hardwired you to be like them and that you might also be a narcissist and damaging your own kids?

Both parents are narcissistic, but I never worried about passing it on to my own children as I knew from a very young age that I didn't want children. However it is telling, in my opinion, that my two brothers have also not had children. We are now all in our fifties, so I doubt that is going to change.

When I read about narcissist traits in mothers, it always says “sees their children as an extension of themselves” What does this mean?

Speaking for myself again, I always say nowadays that my mother expected me to be a 'clone' of herself and that my adult life would mirror hers exactly: I would get married young, have at least 2 children in a short space of time and be a stay at home mother.

I know I have angered and disappointed her greatly by only doing the first - I married when I had just turned 21, which I knew was a massive mistake going in, but I was desperate to get away from my parents and had been brainwashed by them - particularly my mother - that it was the only 'acceptable' way for a supposedly Catholic young woman do so. They wouldn't even allow my then fiance to go upstairs in our house, let alone into my bedroom, until the very day we got married.

Unfortunately the freedom I experienced after getting away from them into my own home went straight to my head...not helped by the fact that my then husband worked nights. I started socializing with friends more, and (something to this day I'm not proud of) was unfaithful to my husband within 6 months of being married. He wasn't a perfect husband, but he didn't deserve that, and the way I changed so much after we married must have been a shock to him. I left him when I was 23, and refused to go after his pension in the divorce. I accepted full responsibility for the failure of the marriage and didn't want to profit by it.

That was 30 years ago this year. My mother still thinks I'm terrible for being in such a short marriage. She was married to my father for 23 years, even though he was unfaithful to her for most of it. He left for another woman while I was on honeymoon. So not only am I not a 'clone' of her, I've made decisions totally different to the ones she made. She doesn't like, or even try to understand, why. To her, I'm just 'wrong' and a great disappointment.

Thank you everyone. I’m understanding and processing a lot right now

Thank you for your kind words and reassurance Atilla, Sicario and user45378754. I feel so conditioned at times to toe the line and put my feelings aside and 'do the right thing' (in my parents' opinion) rather than trust myself and value my feelings. DH has agreed to block my parents and DSis so at least he is not drawn into this. Thank you for your support - it means a lot.

@Anotherporkypie - having friends who support you is very important. Some people don't understand what having toxic families are like and will come out with 'but they are your DM,DF' or 'families are not perfect' etc and make some sort of excuse. Stay strong!

@GreggsVeganSausageRoll - so pleased to hear that you have got a diagnosis. It sounds as if your mother 'diagnosed' you in spite and used it as a weapon against you. She sounds horrid and not supportive.

@Procrastatron - I often worry about the same - but I like to think because we recognise the behaviours and reject them and try to do things differently we are already making a change. Sure - we don't always get things right - but we are trying and that is a great deal more than my parents ever did. Also, I find it helps when I remind myself that I take time to actually listen to my dc, take any comments they have on board, acknowledge their feelings and change any behaviours towards them that upset them. My dc are confident to tell me how they feel about things and if they are uncomfortable or upset (I used to be too scared to in fear of upsetting my parents). I remind myself that I never fail to give them a hug and tell them how much I love them. All things that my parents never did and never will do sadly. I expect you are actually doing a lot better with your dc than you give yourself credit for. Remember we as products of narcissistic parents have a hard job parenting as we have never experienced a safe and loving family - so please give yourself some credit.

Thought I would join in with this thread as my mother has a personality disorder and basically destroyed my childhood and 20's . I'm pretty sure she's a sociopath/,potential psychopath. I read the book 'my mother the psychopath' and it sounds exactly like her. I've also done a lot of research to try to gain a better understanding.
She's was physically abusive, cruel, spiteful, you name it. She's lied about having cancer, sometimes it seemed like she lied for the fun of it. She went into hospital once over something minor and called my sister pretending to be confused/sounded drunk and talking rubbish so we would both worry. When I called her worried she found it funny. Some of the lies she's come out with are insane.
I've been NC for 2 years but still processing the trauma. I'm about to have my 3rd round of therapy- in 2 weeks.
Sorry to everyone who's been through a traumatic childhood!! People who haven't been through the same don't understand but I'm so glad there's a supporr network on here

Hi all, I've posted before under a different name. I've been nc with my mum for over a year. Today she text me saying " I have no idea how much pain and trauma she's in". My heart went in my throat. I had a fbk message from my gran too the day before which I'm not sure was from her. I'm gonna ignore the message but why can't they leave me alone? If I'm that awful (I'm not, I don't think, I've just can't do it anymore) why won't they let go and leave me alone?

They need a punch bag.

They need to push others down just to keep themselves afloat.

I expect she is traumatised and totally discombobulated not having you around to discharge her dissatisfaction and anger with herself on to.

Keep out of punching distance.

Do whatever you need to keep yourself emotionally safe and away from exposure.

Block and delete contacts.

@Cuckoosheep It's hoover attempt and a poor me act/manipulative tactic to suck you back in. She's doing it to regain control. You're right to ignore her. They pull all kinds and it's really unsettling when it's out the blue but don't respond.
Focus on you ❤️ I wish you the best.

Yes it evokes that sense of ambush - where the other person doesn’t respect your crystal clear stated boundaries and feel sufficiently entitled to trounce them.

And show their indignation and rage that you DARED to show some agency and personal choice.

With Mother's Day looming, I am debating whether to send flowers...

I am NC for about a month, VLC for about 6 months and LC for about 20 years.

There was no one single event that led to NC, more just me putting up some boundaries that she didn't like one jot, alongside lots of realisations of how truly miserable she made my childhood and how she doesn't actually know me or add anything to my current life due to her being completely socially inept.

I don't miss her, there's nothing to miss, but I lament having a mum.

Any pearls of wisdom...

@winningeasy - after I had gone completely NC I would still send something for mother's day, birthday, and christmas. Usually the very smallest thing from the local florist, with a totally benign message, like happy mothers day from sicario.

I sent them for my own peace of mind rather than hers. The total NC decision was down mainly to my highly Toxic Sister, although my DM was an awful mother (violent, emotionally crippled, hated her life). I was the family scapegoat and I guess my thinking was that if I send something then that will remove the excuse for another pile-on. Stupid really, but it did make me feel better.

So my advice to you would be - do whatever feels right for you.

Thanks @Sicario I think the same. Nothing fancy, and not even going to refer to her as Mother anymore x

I think whatever approach works for you.

Deciding to send something benign can be strategically beneficial to YOU. It means you are empowered and have taken control. Throwing them a bone to distract and avoid any drama can sometimes help.

It’s also good if you have made these decisions ahead so that you don’t become preoccupied with what to do at xmas, birthday or Mother’s Day.

exactly @User45378754 - it's a simple solution. I felt a bit sorry for my mother, but I didn't like her. She was fucking horrible to me as a kid so she only had herself to blame. Sending the flowers or whatever for the annual diary dates was for my benefit, nobody else's. Then it was out of the way and I didn't have to think about the politics of any of it.

Glad to find this section and hope to find some support that I’m not going mad. Always had a difficult relationship with my mother and think I was in denial for a long time but realised after getting divorced that she is probably a narcissist. I think I have been deliberately distracting myself with other peoples problems for years rather than facing my own. Really struggle with boundaries and feel overly responsible for other people. Generally told I was selfish as a child and taught to put the needs of others above my own and that other people were more important than me.Felt treated like a non person.

Not experienced obvious outright abuse like some posters, more subtle. Thought even recently that maybe my mother has Aspergers and can’t help herself but my grandma was a narcissist and realise my mother deliberately provokes people including me when down then claims she is benevolent and worried about me blah blah.

On meeting my partner she tried to put him off by saying mental illness runs in the family, going on about my mad aunt (my aunt no longer speaks to her and was treated disgustingly by the family over the years). My ex husband who had a more high status job was not given any such treatment so think she just didn’t like my partners low status job. I have stupidly allowed myself to become really enmeshed over the past 13 years where my parents told me they wanted to retire and for me to take over the family business. They have never given up financial control and undermine me at every turn. My mother always suggests I improve myself, nothing I do is ever right, she has always undermined and constantly talks about how wonderful other people are and never has a nice word to say about her own children except my brother who can do no wrong. She has a golden child grandchild.

Im in my late 40s and really feel I need to get myself out from this situation. Various things have built up and I lost my temper with my mother and was honest, that I dread it when my parents come over. I was verbally abusive and lost it telling her to F off, and that I max want to have contact with them once a month and that I understand why my aunt doesn’t speak to her. She threw it back on me, saying I’m too sensitive, I’m almost 50 and why see each other at all. I have been so disappointed and upset about the mother I never had. Any tips on how to rebuild yourself appreciated. Feel slightly terrified that I may have no family support going forward but also realise I only ever had financial support and no more (even that has been warped). Struggling also with my sisters lack of support and making excuses that my mother is a limited person. I haven’t had therapy for this but plan to start.

@Linda1818 I completely get everything you're saying especially lack of support from your sister. My sister defends my mother to the hills even though she's a raving looney, constantly lies and physically abused us both. Last time she hit me I was 21! She's totally brainwashed and still in the fog so I don't speak to her anymore either. Noone should invalidate your feelings, if they can't even hear you and try to understand fuck them off. Not worth your time. You might have PTSD and need CBT therapy. I'd call your GP and ask them or get private if you can afford it. Hope you're pk, sending hugs x

My sister is like that with my mother . My sister is the Golden child and my mother gives her money for things constantly so it’s in her interest to keep my mother sweet. Every time my mother is vile and we don’t speak for months, my sister starts cozying uo to my adult children. Usually she hardly bothers with them. Suddenly she’s sending birthday presents and taking one of them out for lunch. She wants to be seen as the one who gets in marvellously with everyone, so I appear to be even more of a problem. She is a narcissist too. It gets to the point that I feel totally shut out, even that my sister is trying to lever me away from own children.
I really struggle to know what to do or how to cope.

I can also really relate to the thing about my mother feeling down so she gives me a good kicking, then claims she is just worried about me and I’m over sensitive. It’s like mind games on a major scale. It starts to make you doubt your own sanity. To be honest I’d be delighted to never see them again. Either of them.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood My sister is a narcissist too. Loves the limelight on her and I'm someone she wipes her feet on. Which is crazy since we were both abused, just her less so.
I'd cut them off and focus on yourself for a while. Healing begins with distance x

The use of the phrase "you're being oversensitive" is classic gaslighting. Like the use of "I was only joking" after saying or doing something horrible.

It is the same as telling us that our feelings and reactions are wrong. These kind of phrases are designed to distract from what they are doing, whether it be unkind words or nasty behaviour.

You can't argue with people like that, but it's good to make a mental note to recognise that kind of language for the bullshit that it is. They are trying to invalidate your feelings. It's a deliberate ploy to deflect from their shitty behaviour.

@BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood - not sure what to suggest about your sister cozying up to your adult children. My own adult children made up their minds about my toxic sister on their own. They still run into her on the odd occasion and they know very well that "auntie" is a nightmare and not to be trusted. (And totally two-faced.)

@Sicario Sorry you have experienced this too, it's soul destroying but at least you aren't like them. Hope you've managed some healing 💐

Nothing wrong with you telling your children your perspective and letting them make up their own mind @BeautifulDayintheneighbourhood

And definitely don't feel any guilt in distancing yourself from your mum and your sister. Just stop making the effort and making Xmas about your immediate family/friends.

Focus on friendships and your children.

Hearing ALL of this about siblings. Mine are so desperate for our parents to be normal and would keep the peace at all costs. I also see a lot of ‘sunken costs’ with my siblings, ie, we’ve put up with so much already why are you protesting now?

Keeping the peace has backfired on my brother; my nephew has gone no contact with both him and our toxic mother.

I have a sad situation with my brother. He's a good guy, but so enmeshed with my father and to some degree my mum (who are divorced). He isn't well off. My dad has hoarded all the family wealth all his life. He lives in a 3 bed house by himself whilst my brother lives in a tiny 2 bed with his wife and 3 kids, two of which are almost teenagers. I know for a fact my brother sees what a cunt my Dad is and I am very sure he's just staying in there to get the inheritance, because he needs it, and because tbh he deserves it for tolerating that shit 10 years longer than me. I have spent so long being a scapegoat that he thinks I am just a terrible person. I probably wasn't the nicest sister to him over the years due to a very dysfunctional family dynamic and lots of narc triangulation, and the myriad of mental health issues that ensued for me. But I am clearly very different now. He doesn't make any effort to me. I really wanted to not invite my Dad to my wedding but he made it clear he would not come unless I did. My Dad ruined my wedding by being extremely rude to me. Since the birth of my daughter him and his wife have never bothered to send a card or gift for her bday, where as I always send a really nice gift for their daughter / my niece every bday and Xmas (which I will continue to do). But I've decided not to bother with him anymore, he is one of them. He cannot see the wood for the trees which I understand because I am only clearly seeing it at 40. I wish him well but I just find him to be such a pathetic let down tbh. I hope one day we can talk about our childhood with honesty.

Thanks for the support. I think the truth is too hard for my sister so she is trying to shut me down. My parents control a lot through money and my sister is due to get a big loan so is all sweet with my parents now. Also her kid is the golden grandchild so lots to gain there. My mum acts like a completely different person with her. They make you feel like it’s you, that’s mentally unstable or something, but they are pushing you there. It’s a mind f*ck. Also being completely unsupportive, then trying to make out you are crazy, ungrateful and wrong always and saying they love you when their behaviour says otherwise. I have felt things are wrong for around 5 years now but found it hard to trust myself as was going through a divorce and a lot of turmoil. Has everyone else found it easy to trust your instincts and keep distance? How do you avoid getting sucked back in?

it’s amazing how those in favour just don’t see it at all...