Have any of you married your "lover"?

[MoreSpamThanGlam]

What I mean is, have you been the other woman and he left and then you got married?

Or have you/are you the other woman?

AND - does this mean that you are a troll of the relationship type (marriage wrecker/evil queen).

Not me personally but yes, in three cases I can think of. All the people involved are decent lovely people and in no way amoral scumbags.

Two out of the three I have in mind are still very happy more than ten years down the line.

I don't think the third ones are so happy although I don't know them very well.

Every case is different, I suppose.

Ahhh life can be messy.

TBh all the men I was involved with had low self-esteem issues and issues with their parents themselves, IMO. They were quite high-achievers but were serial adulterers. I've never been a man's first mistress. There definitely seemed an element of lack of parent/desire to impress a parent and high career success but also low self esteem - which stems from a similar thing, I think. A lot of married men sleep around because they are seeking validation and to boost their own egos IME.

Many of my friends were in the same situation - in fact, the notion of a faithful relationship was something I thought was totally unrealistic and probably fantasy when I was young. Bonie Tyler didn't pen Married Men for nothing.

I also was a serial adulterer when I was married. I didn't think 'oh I want a relationship with X so I will get divorced first.' I just thought 'I am depressed and unhappy and X makes me feel good and I am in LOVE with him and nothing shall stand in our way, not even the unfortunate condition of my own marriage!" Of course it is all stupidity and I ended up having a breakdown and made my husband extremely depressed. Having affairs is stupid and frankly naive.

Dh and I started as an affair. It is wholly possible that we are both beneath comtempt / dregs / evil / trolls of course, but that seems a bit overly simplistic of the human situation. But of course it is easier to think those things, and I do understand that.

We have both had a lot of therapy and counselling both together and seperately. I think that being a serial adulterer is a bit like being an alcoholic. You know you are weak in that respect, but you just take each day at a time and hope that you will be a better person as you grow. We both try to be very honest about situations that we get into and if we go out by ourselves we are always allowed to call home if we are in a fix and just need the other one to come and pick us up with no questions asked. We have never demanded fidelity of each other, but we hope that we'll be honest about things.

We have been together for 12 years. If we are together long-term and we make each other happy and our relationship helps us grow then that will be wonderful. But we are both well aware that we might fuck up. But we both also know we have learnt a lot since we were young - albeit at a huge expense.

morningpaper I always read what you have to say on mumsnet and that was a particularly honest and interesting post.
Do you mind me asking how old you were throughout your first marriage and whether you had kids?

sprogger what ih he threw himself at her?

This is still very interesting and as someone who is married to i think a serial adultery i am interested as to whether is he is actually able to change. We are having counselling and i have since found out about other flings (not affairs as such). My h is a high achiever in his career and certainly has issues from his childhood.

However i do think society generally 'allows' affairs to occur because we justify it because it involves 'feelings' which we cannot control. However we also have feelings of anger which we learn to control as we know what the dangers are. It is because we justify the 'love' feeling as being a good one really and so we do not need to control it and think about what we are doing. We think we have a fundamental right to be happy and so allow these feelings to develop.

If we all frowned upon affairs as much as we do say wife-beaters (i know it is a bit extreme - but these things do happen without thought too), i think there would be far less heartbreak all round.

Also i think if we could somehow teach people about the fallout of affairs maybe we could learn - it is interesting how many of you have said now that you know the devestation they cause you would not do it again.

Do you think people who embark on affairs have not really thought about it and prehaps dont really know themselves?

mp

go to kids thread

HW, I think they probably just make self justifications to excuse themselves from being 'bad' people.

There is something called dissonance theory which explains this. It's in this book, chaper 7 called aptly, 'Love's assassin'.

I think this is such a complex issue that there's no way you can always call the OW a 'troll'. There's equal fault whenever adultery occurs.

I was the OW when I met my DP. He was unhappily married (aren't they all) to a woman who'd been a teenage friend. They weren't desperately unhappy - they were just more friends than husband and wife, and when she eventually came clean about never wanting children he felt robbed I think, because it was his greatest dream. Then she cheated on him - after which point he couldn't see any reason to continue being faithful, but didn't have the courage to end the marriage.

When I came along he was totally open about his situation, and so I knew I wasn't only the OW but I was one of several previous OW. I was young (only 21) and very stupid, and I desperately tried to get out of the mess I was falling into. We became heavily emotionally involved though, and I hated myself for it. Eventually we broke up because he chickened out of telling her it was over, and I ended up with depression and almost wrecked my chances of the career I'd spent my life working towards.

However, while I was busy getting myself together again he sorted out his life too - left his wife, divorced her and asked me for another chance. I tried so hard to say no, to get away from him, because I knew "If he's done it once ..." but I couldn't keep myself out of it and tentatively saw him again. We took things really slowly and he's had to work seriously hard to earn my trust. But we've now been together for years and we've got a baby, and we're really happy. Other people tell me he's changed, not in fidelity terms but his whole demeanour - he's content now. His ex-wife has remarried and is seemingly happier too.

He might do it again - but he might not. It's a chance I'm willing to take because what we've got is worth it. I do trust him wholeheartedly now. I wouldn't expose my son to the risk of pain if his dad was to cheat, so of course I trust him.

Would I do it all over again though? No way. I know that's like saying I wish my son hadn't been born, which of course isn't the case. But looking back if I was put in the same situation again with age and wisdom I would not repeat it. I have been very, very lucky. Am I a 'troll'? Some people will always think that, but the bottom line is that we both did something very wrong. It's worked out OK for all involved, and we all (including his ex-wife) know that the marriage was essentially over anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that it was morally inexcusable.

I do agree with MuthaHubbard's point that it's got to be better for kids to grow up with examples of happy adult relationships than to learn that marriage is about resentment, bitterness or even simply tolerating unhappiness. A dead relationship is a terrible example. Thankfully I have no experience of that particular situation.

I was 18 when I got married and 21 when I left my first husband. We had no children.

HW I do think it is possible for a serial adulterer to change their behaviour but they need a lot of insight and a lot of counselling IMO - and a partner who will not kill them if they get themselves in a pickle. I think you have to support each other because if you fear your partner having a meltdown if you confess something then you will keep it secret.

We have had lots of big arguments and we are both pretty bad at pushing boundaries sometimes but we do try to be honest about things. I have to be able to trust my partner to be my confessor because otherwise the culture of secrecy starts up and then you are in a mess again.

agree with many points there IARCFB

I have no doubt it is a complex issue, as morningpaper's and RosemaryConley's experiences illustrate.

But let's call a spade a spade. It is WRONG to enter into a relationship with a married man whilst he is still married.

There can be mitigating factors, like who threw themselves at who, who was already trying to end a bad marriage but there was a timing overlap, who had an open marriage, who has self-esteem or parental issues, who was predatory, who was lied to, who got caught up in intoxicating love against their will ... etc

But if I ever had to discuss this with dd, the line I am taking is not ambiguous or one of excusing poor behaviour. It is WRONG, you don't hurt others intentionally, you are meant for better things, and if he is worth it, he will sort it out before he sucks you into his mess.

[nods]

I agree blueshoes - the justifications may be present but they don't change the moral situation.

blueshoes I don't think anyone would disagree with you

if my daughters were involved with married men I would be FAR more worried about their mental health than whether they were being 'bad'

Having affairs is the road to despair all round

And I definitely don't remember thinking, as I took succour from the men who comforted me during my unhappy marriage "Ooh these men are BAD. They should be thinking of my husband!" I was the one that was responsible for being faithful to my husband. They were merely accessories to the crime.

morningpaper, you are right.

I would focus more on prevention. But if dd did take up with a married man, I am not the-pitchfork-turf-her-out-moral-high-horse kind of mother. More the what-have-I-done-wrong-oh-my-baby-is-going-to-get-hurt sort.

It would break my heart too.

I have seen it from a lot of angles. My parents have a stale compromise of a marriage from incompatibility, from which my father strayed, but not in a serial adulterer way, but sad lonely way. I have friends who have married their then married lovers and both sides settled down into happier marriages and families. I have had a very brief relationship with a keen person who was already in a long-term relationship, which I deeply regretted ended almost immediately - they are still together BTW. And of course, ignored propositions.

It is too easy to judge.

Weirdly, my own mother invited several of my lovers back to dinner

That would definitely not be the approach I would take

I'd imagine I would get DH to beat the crap out of them have a word.

I have a theory that those who insist that it's all the OW's fault, she's an evil temptress etc etc are all mothers/wives of adulterous men. Or adulterous men, of course!

It's interesting to read the other side for once. Some people are genuinely unhappy in their marriages. A friend of mine has been in this position and she started an affair, so she says, because her marriage is dysfunctional.

Of course, this sets a dangerous precedent; once people concede that this is acceptable, you then get people saying "I had to have an affair because DW wouldn't [insert name of favourite sexual predilection here]."

@blueshoes - I have meant to ask for ages, do you actually have blue shoes? There is a mum at school who I always call "blueshoes" (to DW, not to her face) because she always turns up in cobalt-blue high heels. (No, I don't know her real name. As if!)

Yes. I married my lover. Also my very best friend. But thankfully he wasn't someone else's at the time.

The one thing I have trouble with is the supposition that a woman can 'throw herself' at a married man, 'causing' an affair presumably without his consent.

I think it's fairly obvious that this would not be possible.

That is why I don't often go for the 'blame the OW' arguments/reactions.

For an affair to happen, there needs to be a willing Ow/Om and a willing married person.

I rarely 'threw myself' at my 'partner' but he would not refuse if I did. He would call me sometimes 10 times in one day...afterwards he told his wife I was obsessed and stalked him, and that he hadn't wanted any of it. Which of course wasn't really true.

Unquietdad, I don't believe I ever owned a pair of blue footwear . "blueshoes" because my dd's first pair of shoes was blue. Her feet were so small the only pair they stocked that fit her was blue.

RosemaryConley, ... or daughters of adulterous men!