First cousin marriage

[Danceswithwhippets]

I don’t think I know (family or wider) anyone in a first cousin marriage.
I listened to this interesting podcast.
There is quite an ick factor about it -the podcaster (a “data journalist” -I didn’t know there was such a thing but I think we need them!) refers to it as a taboo. I suppose that maybe correct, if you do regard it as a part of the incest taboo.
She suggests the ick factor may be a reflection of racism, as first cousin marriage is now unusual in western societies.
What I find interesting is that although in western societies it’s largely frowned upon, few western countries legally prohibit it or restrict it.
Listen to what she says is the genetic evidence about risk -she seems to consider, for first cousin marriages, a doubling of risk of a major genetic problem from 3 to 4% (ie to 6 to 8%) is not great. I wouldn’t agree with that.
Any geneticists, or for that matter any first cousin marriages out there?

It's on BBC Sounds
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0ch1vn3#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BPromo_Box%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BPS_SOUNDS~N~p0ch1vn3~P_AmINormalCousinMarriage_SEG_PNC%5D

I recently saw a TT video, a clip of a documentary, about an area where there were so many birth defects and infant deaths and studies had shown it was due to first cousin marriages. I think it was Birmingham, it was sad to see. I had no idea there were so many people affected.

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/silence-must-end-call-action-20348860

Bradford study finds higher birth defect risk in married cousins www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-23183102

I read an article about increased birth defects in certain areas (not uk I believe) due to 1st cousin marriages, the odd marriage isn’t a problem but when it’s extremely common over many generations, genetically the cousins are more like siblings. I think it’s actually illegal in many American states.

When I was in hospital having my youngest in next bed was lady married to her first cousin. Her Auntie was also her Mil. She already had 2 children with LD then her baby was born with very tiny head. Consultant told her it was likely the close interbreeding of her family as apparently her parents were first cousins too. Not enough genetic variation she was told. Advised to think carefully before having more children. She just shrugged her shoulders and said she would have more children.

It's legal where we live but only common in certain ethnic (minority) groups apparently. It's not frowned upon by people generally but it does give me the ick.

"It's racist to dislike inbreeding/incest" is a ridiculous accusation. Just because it's part of a culture, doesn't automatically make it good, healthy, or untouchable as far as criticism goes. I think the genetic issues are good enough reason to not marry cousins.

An older lady I used to know was the child of first cousins. She had a lot of health issues which she always attributed to this.

It is perfectly, scientifically reasonable to say that marrying your first cousin increases the likelihood of birth defect. It should be illegal in this country and it is costing the NHS loads of money unnecessarily.

I don't feel the ick about first cousin marriages because it was the norm where I grew up and sometimes the couple would do genetic testing before agreeing to wed. However I wouldn't recommend first cousin marriages due to increased risk of disabilities and birth defects. It's only a taboo in Western and Christian societies.

I think the same is true for IVF

The farmers in a village in the Cotswolds I used to live in were married first cousins. They had six beautiful children.

They are the only first cousin marriage I know of first hand. When my DD2 spent six weeks neonatally in Leeds General Infirmary and then subsequent times in PICU I became aware of a number of babies transferred from Bradford Royal Infirmary with complications where repeated cousin marriage was part of the history. That was over 20 years ago.

It doesn’t give me the ick in principle but I can’t imagine ever fancying my first cousin because we’d known each other since we were children. So that particular relationship would give me the ick. Maybe I’d feel differently if we’d met as adults.

It does sound like there’s ever increasing risk in families where this is common and so your first cousin is ‘more’ than your first cousin. I don’t think it’s racist to advise that first cousin marriages introduce a risk and that the impact will be on your children.

As it happens my own first cousin isn’t genetically related to me at all due to adoption.

It’s a big issue in our area and there are steps to tackle it but it’s sensitive. I think the idea is to keep any money and assets within the family.
I know one lady who married her first cousin and her parents AND in laws were also cousins. Plus her parents were related to her in laws. She had 2 disabled children and this was apparently her “fault” somehow. She actually ended up divorced and in a new relationship with someone unrelated to her and had 2 more healthy babies.
Its an absolute tragedy but it’s hard to tackle hundreds if not a thousand years of ingrained thinking and it used to be a lot more common in Europe as well, especially amongst Royalty.

Many years ago I worked on playschemes for children with disabilities in Bradford. I came across several families who had children with disabilities as a result of first cousins marrying. One family had eleven children, nine of whom had some sort of disability. It was heartbreaking.

I wouldn't do it, and in principle, if the couple are not intending on having children I don't have an issue with it. I do when it's more a case of inbreeding across several arms of a family.

If that makes me racist then I guess I'm a racist.

Completely agree with this.

Not to derail but it would be like saying you can't criticize FGM because it would be racist/culturally insensitive.

After my baby was stillborn, I went down an internet rabbithole of birth defects and was horrified to read about how many infant deaths in particular parts of the country are due to inbreeding (and mainly due to first cousin marriages) but that it's a subject that is seen as too taboo to make public or discuss.

I remember being really shocked that I'd never heard anything about it.

I know a couple who are first cousins.

They got together after his first wife cheated on him and from what she's told me it sounds like she was a safe bet.

They don't seem very happy.

There’s a UK documentary on Netflix about it. I found the intro too upsetting. www.netflix.com/gb/title/81466613 “When cousins marry”.

I come from a background where it’s common, I really hate it when people say “it’s racist to look at an issue that’s prevalent in a certain ethnicity”, it means that the people who need help or don’t have choice don’t get it (e.g. little choice in whether you marry your cousin or anyone else, little choice whether you can continue education past mandatory).

I barely know my cousins, haven’t met them since I was a toddler so I don’t have any kind of “ick, family” feeling about them. I could probably walk past some of them in the street and have no idea who they were.

I also think it’s somewhat tricky really to prohibit cousin marriage solely on the basis of it increasing the likelihood of disability. Should we prevent disabled people with a known hereditary or genetic component element to their disability from marrying and having children? People who know they are carriers of genes which are responsible for disabilities? And MN is full of posters with an autistic DH, an autistic child or two, yet still planning further babies. They aren’t told they’re behaving reprehensibly and selfishly and costing the NHS a fortune, even though it’s now suspected there’s a strong genetic component to autism.

An in-law (distant) is the product of a first cousin marriage, and he is a little giddy and judgement is poor. I'm afraid to say anymore in case I am pounced upon.

If you find it interesting I suggest you google The Whittakers, which are a family that are very in-bred and the impact on the offspring is very severe.

I live in an area where cousin marriage is common in a couple of minority groups, in fact one of my closest friends is the product of first cousin marriage and has a disabled sibling as a result. It's a sensitive issue, even my friend with first hand experience defends it. In her case she is from a group that has been heavily persecuted up to the very recent past, so it is deemed very important to maintain the culture through marrying within the community. But it's a small community and it is very difficult to bring a spouse from overseas now so there isn't always much choice!

Like pp I have also seen families where every child is severely disabled and it is so sad.

I do think it will naturally get less common in subsequent generations as communities become more educated. Even in my friend's family, her parents generation were absolutely dead set on marrying within the community at all costs, but she herself appears to have more freedom, she would want to marry broadly within her religion/culture but isn't considering cousin marriage.

@Hoppinggreen - your reference to Europeans jumped out at me - my grandparents were 1st cousins for exactly this reason - small pool of appropriate matches, and keeping the line going etc - and I used to laugh and say it explained all our challenges.

The older I get, the more I realise that's unlikely, and lots of other families deal with the same issues, and they're not generally related to inbreeding.

Can't imagine it myself, despite barely knowing my own cousins, just not OK.

I'm with @ComtesseDeSpair on this.

Why do people see marriage between cousins, on the basis of increased risk to children, as "more morally wrong" and therefore deem it should be illegal than say marriage between two unrelated people who are carriers of genes that also increase risk to their children?

The only difference in these two scenarios is that in one, the couple are likely to be from a particularly community or minority group - which just makes the outrage displayed by some on this thread smack of casual racism.

I mean it's not a great idea for the gene pool and I wouldn't do it but I don't have a visceral reaction to it, it doesn't make me feel revulsion. Like, I don't know, theft - I'm against it but it doesn't make me go "ick". My great grandparents were cousins, maybe that's why!