First cousin marriage

[Danceswithwhippets]

I don’t think I know (family or wider) anyone in a first cousin marriage.
I listened to this interesting podcast.
There is quite an ick factor about it -the podcaster (a “data journalist” -I didn’t know there was such a thing but I think we need them!) refers to it as a taboo. I suppose that maybe correct, if you do regard it as a part of the incest taboo.
She suggests the ick factor may be a reflection of racism, as first cousin marriage is now unusual in western societies.
What I find interesting is that although in western societies it’s largely frowned upon, few western countries legally prohibit it or restrict it.
Listen to what she says is the genetic evidence about risk -she seems to consider, for first cousin marriages, a doubling of risk of a major genetic problem from 3 to 4% (ie to 6 to 8%) is not great. I wouldn’t agree with that.
Any geneticists, or for that matter any first cousin marriages out there?

It's on BBC Sounds
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0ch1vn3#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BPromo_Box%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BPS_SOUNDS~N~p0ch1vn3~P_AmINormalCousinMarriage_SEG_PNC%5D

There were a couple of first cousin marriages in the older generations of my family (e.g. great aunt and uncle). It sounds like one offs aren’t that high risk, it’s when it repeats over generations and they keep marrying between themselves.

In DH's culture, first cousin marriages are traditional. Parents often will arrange marriages to first cousins - in many families, it is often assumed from birth that .first cousins will marry.

DH and his parents are REALLY opposed to this because not only does it cause physical health issues (DH's father has several minor birth defects which are really common in their community, as do several of his family members, as a result of this. He is extremely self conscious about the defects which make certain tasks more difficult, although not impossible. Interestingly, culturally these birth defects are considered lucky, although of course many individuals don't agree/don't feel lucky, like DH's father.)

But another big issue is from a mental health perspective. Another big part of their cultural traditions is that cousins refer to each other as 'brother' and 'sister' and are raised very closely, like actual brothers and sisters. DH gets really upset when he talks about this - being raised as brother and sister, and then suddenly told you have to marry when you reach a certain age. He thinks it's close to sexual abuse. Luckily for him, his father was already against this tradition due to the physical health issues he has, so this was never an issue for him, but it's upsetting enough for him to even contemplate that traditionally he should marry his own 'sister' (again, cousin, but they were raised as siblings).

Now both us and DH's siblings have children, it also has made the family even more opposed to this practice - the idea of the children getting married one day is upsetting and disturbing to us all, but there have been comments made by elderly relations about it! So there is still pressure, although the practice is becoming less common as people start to realise the health implications and become more aware about issues like abuse, consent, etc because of the internet and coming into contact with people from different cultures who don't have these traditions.

It is very much not the case that this is something popular even within the cultures where it is practiced, and although traditions are considered important, they can still cause a great deal of pain and upset and distress and are not at all what people always WANT to do, even if they feel like they NEED to do them.

My DSis gave birth to her first child in a middle eastern Muslim country where cousin marriage is common. Early in her pregnancy care she was asked not if but how she and the father were related - OB very relieved to hear "not at all". There is a very high incidence of genetic illness in their population and a high risk of miscarriage and still-birth.

Trivia: Christopher Robin from the Winnie the Pooh books grew up to marry his first cousin, and they had only one child, who had severe cerebral palsy.

The facts are know: children of first cousin marriages are more at risk of significant health problems and in cultures where this practice is common genetically linked health problems are a real problem.
I couldn't condone a practice that knowingly puts children at risk of genetic disease, some of which are life changing or life limiting. It causes totally unnecessary suffering.

It’s not racism. It’s genetically dodgy and a bit grim / odd

(When I say 'because of the internet' I mean that previously, people would feel pressure to follow traditions even if they hated them and it was uncommon to speak out against traditions for fear of the consequences. However, now people can communicate anonymously over the internet, young people are able to freely discuss and share their worries and unhappiness about these traditions and so they're becoming more open to NOT following them/realising that other people feel the same way that they do and so feeling confident to stand up against the things that they don't want to do, etc.)

The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh were 3rd cousins, were they not?

My in laws are first cousins, didn't grow up together though. DH is embarrassed about it and doesn't like people knowing. He seems healthy enough! English, by the way, so no cultural reason.

It is illegal

It is odd- I see my cousins as my “siblings once removed”!

Third cousins marrying does not carry such significant risks and to suggest so indicates a poor understanding of genetics.

I thought most problem occur when it's not one off first cousin marriages but multiple generations of such unions.

Though at one point Pope had to give dispensations for European rulers to marry within so much consanguinity.
www.thoughtco.com/consanguinity-and-medieval-marriages-3529573

I think a lot of the taboo of cousin marriages actually comes from the USA - they can get very odd about second or even third cousin marriages as well perhaps because they had pockets of isolated communities for longer than in Europe. I've seen mention of the railway coming in UK meant a greater mixing of populations than before and reduced some issues.

We had an odd experience we moved to an area where people tended to stay or come back to but outsiders didn't - there were lots of rare genetic illnesses. There were like DH paternal line descendants of Irish fleeing Potato famine - were as DH family married English and steadily moved to new areas - these families all from same area in Ireland stayed together and their descendants frequently marry unaware of any previous family connections. So small genetic pool - and that's despite them having same opportunities as rest of UK.

I think there are moves to make certain communities more aware of risk - but doubt the one I mention would be on anyone's radar.

I know several and a handful have severely disabled children. The ones I know all believe the genetic risks are bullshit and the health advice is just racism. One of my close friends is actually happy his new grandchild is a girl because she'll be a match for his grandson. At least four generations first cousins, quite possibly more and two severely disabled children.
they just don't believe it and because it's permitted in Islam it's considered fine.

I would argue that 2 people having children when they both KNOW they are carriers of a particular genetic disease and are likely to have a disabled child as a result is morally dubious as well

I live in an area where this is not unusual and there are many children born into these marriages with disabilities. I am sure there was a programme about it a while back based in Bradford.

I didn't grow up very close to my male cousins and in face were heavy on girls so they'd gave all probably been taken before I got to a marriageable age. Looking at my kids now and my niece, it seems bizarre to think of them marrying one day and their Aunty becoming their MIL.

I had thought it should be made illegal due to the genetic issues but pp's male a valid point about would you outlaw procreation from people with known hereditary medical issues? I'd oppose that so....

My understanding is that there are considerable taboos in the USA to the source of being a subject of comedy [SNL Irish cousin marriae sketch], no taboo in the UK. Some prevalence in some UK disadvantaged communities (minority ethnic communities from some South Asian countries, rural communities, UK Royals, aristocracy...). Some increased risk of medical conditions at a population level.

I also think it’s somewhat tricky really to prohibit cousin marriage solely on the basis of it increasing the likelihood of disability

we prohibit closer familial marriage though, siblings, child etc, due to interbreeding risks. I would extend the law to cousins as well.

genetic illness are a different issue. It usually doesn’t affect every child, and isn’t as broad a risk, it’s an individual one. I think people and dr’s have a moral obligation to minimise the risk, but it’s more predictable and easier to manage.

Someone I work with married their first cousin. Made me feel so uncomfortable. Very icky.

It's an issue with any closed communities.
I went on a trip with dds primary school to the bruderhof community. I was paired up with a member of their community. I asked what the biggest challenge they faced, and the answer was exactly this.

Repeated first cousin marriage increases the risk of severe disabilities. It can lead to pain, discomfort and disability and make family life challenging and financially difficult.

Hospices in some parts of the country care for young patients with profound disabilities throughout their too short lives.

I would like to see it legislated against to prevent some of this unnecessary misery.

As a pp said it seems that its only when it's repeated over generations that it usually becomes a health risk. It's legal but very unusual where I live, but as it happens I know two people who married their first cousins. I think it's a bit weird, in both cases their mother's are sisters, but they seem very happy and their dc are grown up and perfectly healthy. In both cases they didn't grow up with their cousins and met them in adulthood.

Like @TheFlis12345 and @Deadringer one offs are less of an issue, the places like Bradford being discussed (or many of the European royal families for that matter, full of haemophilia and more) have issues with multiple generations of cousins and relatives marrying, to the point they become effectively sibling marriages 🤢

Personally it feels a bit gross, not least because my cousins are not attractive - but still, if you were to forbid first cousins having children on the basis of increases in relatively rare genetic issues, then you'd in fairness have to do something about allowing for example 2 parents with a huge range of genetic or strongly heritable illnesses? Or using IVF?

in both cases their mother's are sisters, but they seem very happy and their dc are grown up and perfectly healthy. In both cases they didn't grow up with their cousins and met them in adulthood

This is really the only scenario which makes sense to me, but I grew up with my first cousins and those on my dad’s side are like siblings to me, so I do have the ick.

Realistically though, out of all the people to pursue a relationship with, why would someone choose their parent’s sibling’s offspring? Especially outside of a culture that didn’t encourage it?

My aunt and uncle are first cousins. We're Arab. Its considered favourable socially. My cousin is fine, he's an engineer now. The only surprise is that he's got blue eyes.